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#417388 - 03/21/09 04:57 AM Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

just a odd tidbit. Using the naked choke as bait to eliminate opponent from combat faster than choking him out. Due to adrenaline and nature of SD better here than grappling. Call it the Jawbreaker.

Assume good choke and begin walking backwards to keep opponent off balance. Most MA will be trying to avoid being choked out, most common response (ESP. if you bait them by loosening choking elbow out a little) is to tuck chin or cheek in hollow created.

1.)Allow this then move the rope of your forearm and humerus to clinch jaw, re-tightening gap of bait opening made by elbow.

2.)This could be a submission but its too slow...Quick pressure of forearm and bicep Forcing each end of the mandible inward as tho to have them meet, pressure is applied at hinge of each side of jaw, like cracking a nut.
a.) the left and right mandible fused during growth at the tip of the jaw, this will break...after
b.) the hinge of each mandible is driven in to damage/crush or destroy BOTH nerve plexus behind mandibular ramus (just in front of ear lobe).

Choke to bait, if bait is taken, Jawbreaker using a sharp inward forcing of both mandibular hinges, this also does some bad damage to associated nerve plexus....

*****If to practice, recommend sitting posture, VERY SLOWLY bring arms together so uke has time to tap before damage done

OR should I not have mentioned this and said I saw it on a "Friends" rerun and ignore me? did that make sense? easier to demonstrate than say...did I get too weird??

-Karl. Peace. CRRRAAACK!!!!
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#417389 - 03/21/09 07:57 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Excellent! Thanks! Can't wait to give it a try which might be today. I'm having trouble visualizing what the humerous is doing. I may be understanding the whole thing incorrectly. Suppose the left forearm is in front. Which humerous are you talking about?


Edited by underdog (03/21/09 08:05 AM)
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#417390 - 03/21/09 08:53 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
hi,
insomnia for 2 days

I was naming the bone not really the part doing the main arterial closing.
Say Rt arm is choking, rt hand on lt biceps near elbow w/ lt hand behind head...Rt arm does all the work, as they just start to find a way out give space in crook of rt elbow, most people tend to tuck chin in this space...thats what you want, dont let em slip out, rt forearm is probably touching their lt Jaw and rt BICEPs is probably on their Rt jaw....DO THIS SLOWLY...if you start w/ standing choke and are walking backwards take them to the ground first, get them in a stable position (gaurd might work), reason I suggest go to ground is that you are Practicing the tech, starting from choke 1st on ground is even better, this allows them less mobility to hurt themselves and allows you time to BRING RT forearm towards rt biceps (Imagine a nutcracker, focus on the two opposite sides of jaw "Trying to meet in center)SLOW SLOW SLOW squeeze, the pain is bad, if the symphysis of the chin cracks it will break and no matterhow fast you let go its too late. Then once you elicit pain and know what to feel , take ukemi so you know why I ask SLOW....This was not designed as a submission but could be one....if it works and you dig it...ask what i was told it was for....real tech is asap you have Jaw, close snap the choking arm shut (MAYBE idea of wrist is brought to shoulder). dont want to walk em back...rt choke, lt palm heel to pelvis unbalances them (they must be unbalanced and choked, they take the bait more out of panic....Please be careful...tell them to tap when its too much, when you get it you wont believe how little it takes when both nerve plexus on either side of jaw are compressed same time...let me know how it works....and how it feels

_karl. better description? dont show many people, once you got it no need practice, its so simple yet so sick.
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#417391 - 03/21/09 08:54 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hmmm........not sure why you wouldn't simply finish the choke if you have it locked in - surely it's less damaging and painful than breaking the opponent's jaw? Proper RNC will have the opponent out in <10 seconds.

BTW, It is possible to break someone's jaw from choke positions . I almost found out the hard way, although not from the RNC -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=1&vc=1
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#417392 - 03/21/09 09:33 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: MattJ]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
hi,

well, this was never intended to submit and it was intended to be finished in 2-3 sec, w/o an alarm being raised.

A particular instructor of mine who shall remain nameless pointed out that guerrilla warfare sometimes found one w/o weapons and tasked at sentry removal, this individual said that since both sides practice rear neck breaks, the counter is often instinctive esp w/ enemy hair shaved and both sweaty, this might be considered a PP destruction w/ concomitant Jaw breakage while backing up, even if it doesnt kill the enemy, little noise, no drag marks for 5 feet or so and as they will at least be in shock, break their neck in cover...now you have weapons and enemy uniform...Thats why all the cautions of doing it slowly...on a lighter side it will teach the student not to put their chin there.
I mention it only as this is the PP forum and I dont know how many people have actually felt the true pain of PP usage, this should emphasize the ease PP can truly be used for ill, OR accidentally cause it. Besides I'm old and may die, some things will go w/ me but this is sub lethal in practice and PAIN is educationial I dont know how many are familiar w/ this mode of PP (Bone being used, their bone), being stunned or ko'ed doesnt quite say PP can be real dangerous like the slow pain this does, not everyone reading the initial and following posts will understand how to. Needless to say SLOW, warn uke to be READY TO TAP.

-karl if this was too much say so.
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#417393 - 03/21/09 09:44 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
A choke can be finished in just about as long. When being choked, I don't think its even possible for the person to make a sound.

If you're looking for something more "permanent" in so far as a "final" solution, I don't know.

The problems arise out of the inability to thoroughly test this maneuver to determine how well it actually works.

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#417394 - 03/21/09 10:18 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: JKogas]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
hi,

This more is of a good safe (if applied slow and safe) way to apply Dual PP using an individuals bone to press the points, a kinda novel approach, and it will reinforce the danger inherent in PP strikes way more than being stunned (it hurts like all get out).

And is just one of some PP attacks where the individuals own anatomy is used. Nothing really to prove, just as long as it is SLOWLY applied, more experiential.

Plus this may be a novel approach to PP in this forum, dont hit the PP use opponents bone to hit the PP.???
-karl. that kinda make sense?
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#417395 - 03/21/09 07:18 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
As far as I know, the choke ought to do the job but just because it can, doesn't mean that you will always get it perfectly. Many people work on realeases from it in the hopes that if it is ever applied to them, it will not be applied with full intent to put them out.

Anyway, I was interested in the technique figuring it is good to have a back up. What if I am the one applying the RNC and someone is getting his chin in the elbow crook? Breaking a jaw sounds good!

I brought up the technique today in class with Evan Pantazi. He couldn't figure out what the technique was from my poor description but with the greater detail from the last post description, I think I can work it out with my coach, Cody Robyn. I don't think I want to tap someone out and try it on some one, I think I just want to walk through it without any pressure to see if I can understand it and could do it. You make it sound too dangerous for me to train with any real pressure.

Again, thanks for your contribution. There is so much negativity in this section that it is a treat to read something from someone who actually trains pressure points and has an idea I can learn from.
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#417396 - 03/24/09 01:27 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
One pressure point technique that I can vouch for working off the mat is what I call the "slimeball mustache (tm)". It can come in handy when you can't squeeze your arm under the chin enough to sink the rnc. It's fairly simple. Press your index finger over the persons upper lip, so that your middle knuckle is pressing into the divet (like your making a mustache over their upper lip with your finger). Then keep the pressure going into the divet, and also apply pressure upwards, against the nose. It's quite painful, and will usually make the person bend their head back enough so you can sink the choke.

--Chris
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#417397 - 03/25/09 10:29 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: Ames]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Good idea. I shall try it as a face choke to set up an RNC. Sounds like a very good idea.

Yes I like this point a lot. I use it from the bottom of a mount too. As I get older, it is hard to get the buck and roll escape or harder to get my leg around for a triangle choke. Rubbing side to side with upward pressure into this point gets the persons head back where they don't want it and makes it easier for me to get an escape technique on.


Edited by underdog (03/25/09 10:31 AM)
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