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#417398 - 03/25/09 11:21 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: Ames]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

One pressure point technique that I can vouch for working off the mat is what I call the "slimeball mustache (tm)". It can come in handy when you can't squeeze your arm under the chin enough to sink the rnc. It's fairly simple. Press your index finger over the persons upper lip, so that your middle knuckle is pressing into the divet (like your making a mustache over their upper lip with your finger).




I can vouch for that as well. We were taught to target that area (philtrum) for strikes and manipulations in American kenpo. Very painful and effective. "Where the head goes, the body must follow".
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#417399 - 03/31/09 06:36 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: MattJ]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

Yup, Master Dong taught us that one, though we were taught to use what we called tigermouth stike hand shape like a C-clamp with the base of the index finger to strike the philtrum, apply upward pressure and close the thumb (one sinus area) and index/middle fingers (other side) closing the C-clamp for head control, additional pain and head control obtained placing other hand on back of head...worse if one used what He called the hammed and anvil technique, striking philtrum and palm to back of head same time.

I have the official (ok it is 15yrs old so I cant say its still taught) GPD non fatal thumb strike/control area under different part of jaw than my original post....

Should I start a new post for these or just hang here or forget about it???

-Karl. Peace.
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#417400 - 04/01/09 05:37 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Keep going here. Then I'll know where to find it. I'm reading.
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#417401 - 04/01/09 06:52 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Should I start a new post for these or just hang here or forget about it???




Feel free to post it here, and thanks for the info.

--Chris
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#417402 - 04/01/09 07:14 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
OK Hi,

PP Control Tactics encompassed 6 days in two wks, empty hand and baton (tho strictly speaking now with the Asp, most LEO's I still know use Asp as a means to secure and acquire their primary weapon).

Leaving bruises or lacerations looked down upon.
The nerve plexus behind ear ('Dokko' in japanese I believe) was told to me to be off limits for this PP control/Stun.

First find the safer place-tighten throat/larynx and feel to either side, its soft, if you go towards end of jaw-too far...so striking point under jaw, past chin, before Dokko.

Second what to strike with, Master Dong recommended fist with thumbknuckle strike, GPD taught fist with thumb flat and tip of thumb barely exposed as striking point (if this makes sense good-not a full fist but index bent as if to make a type of 'Phoenix Eye' fist. Tip of thumb is striking point, initial direction is into sublingual area (upwards if they are standing.)

Technique requires not over much force, free hand grabs top of perps head like a basketball and simultaneously jab thumb tip under jaw w/ a bit of force will stun, driven in slowly will not kill (?) but I can attest to the pain inflicted, grind that thumb in up arc and down all the while using other hand to help guide perp to ground.

Was told a harder shocking type of jab would render stun or unconsciousness.

Again a safer jaw PP control/compliance technique, also I learned this 15 yrs ago and do not KNOW THAT GPD or any other LEO's still use this. Safety 1st.

-Karl. Peace.
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#417403 - 04/02/09 08:43 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Interesting. Opposite of what I do. I do not go for St 9, either side of throat. Especially not with older ukes. I'd be afraid to use it in the hospital too because of the danger, and that it would look like a very bad assault on the video cameras.

I have done many KO in the dojo, (never in the hospital), with TW 17 however. On the receiving end, I don't let people hit me hard or with any intent in St 9 but I do let people practice what they want on TW 17 behind the ear.

I shall have to think about this and wonder if my avoidance of St 9 in practice is too cautious. Certainly, TW 17 by comparision, seems pretty good for practice.
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#417404 - 04/04/09 08:20 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi underdog,

My fear in the hospitals I've worked at was the mental patient getting the bloody needle from me, as I worked w/ radioactive material couldnt just dump it in the sharps box...chairs are good for that:)

Facial PP mounted would extend your arm, ever try point of elbow to inside of biceps close to armpit or knuckle strike there or to both armpits as a means to shrimp out??

Or alternately a sharp knuckle under the ribs on either side of solar plexus can, possibly, strike the nerves of the lungs as they exit the protection of the ribs and before the rectus abdominus get in the way. just thinking and typing.
-Karl. Peace.
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do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417405 - 04/04/09 07:29 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Actually I've used all of those in the dojo. I work on the psych units in the hospital and never handle radioactive materials. Giving injections to psych patients can be a challenge.

I went to a 6 hour stick training today with pressure points. I did get to try the face choke to neck choke technique. Works nicely. It doesn't matter that we were using sticks, the principle was the same. Got the face choke on SI 18 and when uke raised the head, getting any choke on the neck was very easy.

It is hard to resist that SI 18 pain with empty hands and an escrima stick is so very much worse. Get it in there and turn the stick to stretch the point.

We used that SI 18 point in class last week too, stretching it in different ways and using it for control on the ground and all kinds of ways. On the ground, an elbow fits perfectly into it. Go down first towards the point from under the eye in order to stretch the area and get the extra cheek flesh out of the way that would otherwise pad the point. Then dig the elbow up towards the eye sinking it deep into the curve in the zygomatic bone. Very painful.

If you are blocking a wide hook on the inside (obviously) if you "cover" with the elbow forward you can spear any point you like on the arm. My favorites are P2, NUE 9 the spindle for the bicep. However, you can also keep going right into L1 or 2 on the chest or the nipple and scewer these on the elbow. I love elbows. They are great weapons.
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#417406 - 04/17/09 08:42 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi, been awhile..I've been busy getting dumped...

Which brought to mind Pressure Point control and if needed termination...

BUT not using your body...seems most people I talk to on the PP subject are focused on superficial points and when I ask "how about the two handed scapular slap?" (gotta hand it to ya Underdog, got the meridian points down) GPD taught a two handed kinda Palm corner 'shocking' slap (in Ba Gua palm strikes may be kind and 'Pushing' or rupture internal organs w/ a 'Shocking' strike)

The place we were hit, so as to learn where to hit, finally gave up its name to me 3-ish years ago or a tad longer ago when at a seminar Master Wei Lun Huang was emphasizing foot placement in relation to a point on the sole of the foot which formed a channel that ran to two points on the back in a cavity above the spine of the scapula

Bubbling Well...NOT the point I initially picked to offer as a good strike spot which allowed the reader to easily visualize the more important concept variation of PP control (which the reader is aware of, but perhaps in a more limited form) which will give easy access to good stunning or temporarily disabling PP not often trained as they lay not surface but mid to deep in body; and, so when struck yields few effective results. There is an existent concept to overcome the PP depth issue, common knowledge. I hope the presented variant is so full of unique and odd possibilities than the more static/limited widely known concept to overcome PP depth that...ooops not tellin yet...first the following and last what I like to call the variant concept, twixt the two ya ought to come up with the idea ...soooo...the original concept to overcome PP depth yielded__or arose from__a singular tool/weapon which yielded high positive response yet without one having trained hard to form a focal striking surface out of ones chosen body part (and causing no end of controversy on this forum as to the Intelligence/necessity or lack thereof in individuals just starting or long term freaks like me for training in something that could easily be injurious if trained improperly).

The original concept probably created the tool, a singular tool which by its existence may lend one to overlook or forget the variant concept.....more later but thats called a two parter...I like to call the variant concept by such a fashion that it is as vague as the PP tools/weapons ya'll come up with....."Improvised, Expedient Field Tools"

next...IEFT and the armpit...give us several...you've guessed already??

-Karl. Peace.
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do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417407 - 04/17/09 10:49 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,
I am pathetic, replying to my own reply and saying 'Hi'

Like memorable things so I moved some of the words around and would like to see if this prompts replies.

FITE...Field Improvised Tools of Expediency...vs.
The Kuobaton as an adjunct to effectively strike the deeper seated PP on the Body and legs.

The Kubaton is great for such a purpose BUT it is limited and yet has such a good history of success that I believe many have forgotten or never were provided with the motivation to explore the more versatile and infinite possibilities of what I just called FITE, if anyone knows of a historical name for what I am about to propose let everyone know...

FITE- "Field Improvised Tools of Expediency....effective improvisation of seeing day to day generally common Objects in the place you are at when you suddenly need a Tool, in this case primarily to strike deeper seated PP and get results.

Example1: when I attended a PP control Tactics Seminar for GPD SWAT back in the early 90's we were taught a "Scapular Slap" and I named the PP struck as "Bubbling Well".
Recently asked a Sheriff form Talahassee and he told me that was no longer taught as it had a low rate of success.

I would guess it would work if struck w/ a kubaton...oops a kubaton in each hand...technique to stun required both sides be struck. Now who carries 2 kubaton, and who always has access to the single one probably attached to their keys?
FITE-most places of work have several "Sharpie" Markers about, either end dreadfully resembles a kubaton, grab two and the scapular slap is now effective as two hammer fists holding a sharpie slam Lt and Rt Bubbling well.
since a fist holding a sharpie will display a kubaton like end extending past thumb and little finger ends this opens up a world of PP attacks.

One more example and ya'll reading come up with some everyday objects to explore their uses, OR this post just flounders proving how lame I am

I'm kinda tired and have to get yelled at by X-Chick so heres a quickie...

a standard Magazine is a great short baton IF rolled properly.....ok, start rolling from the page part 1st so the final object is a tight rolled magazine with its SPINE exposed. The spine is the striking surface so I hope ya trained some edged weapons-smack a knife holding hand and just maybe they'll drop it, follow immed w/ a strike to brachial plexus on either side of neck...you got the idea.

hope anyone who might read this likes it.

-Karl. Peace.
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