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#417388 - 03/21/09 04:57 AM Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

just a odd tidbit. Using the naked choke as bait to eliminate opponent from combat faster than choking him out. Due to adrenaline and nature of SD better here than grappling. Call it the Jawbreaker.

Assume good choke and begin walking backwards to keep opponent off balance. Most MA will be trying to avoid being choked out, most common response (ESP. if you bait them by loosening choking elbow out a little) is to tuck chin or cheek in hollow created.

1.)Allow this then move the rope of your forearm and humerus to clinch jaw, re-tightening gap of bait opening made by elbow.

2.)This could be a submission but its too slow...Quick pressure of forearm and bicep Forcing each end of the mandible inward as tho to have them meet, pressure is applied at hinge of each side of jaw, like cracking a nut.
a.) the left and right mandible fused during growth at the tip of the jaw, this will break...after
b.) the hinge of each mandible is driven in to damage/crush or destroy BOTH nerve plexus behind mandibular ramus (just in front of ear lobe).

Choke to bait, if bait is taken, Jawbreaker using a sharp inward forcing of both mandibular hinges, this also does some bad damage to associated nerve plexus....

*****If to practice, recommend sitting posture, VERY SLOWLY bring arms together so uke has time to tap before damage done

OR should I not have mentioned this and said I saw it on a "Friends" rerun and ignore me? did that make sense? easier to demonstrate than say...did I get too weird??

-Karl. Peace. CRRRAAACK!!!!
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#417389 - 03/21/09 07:57 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
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Excellent! Thanks! Can't wait to give it a try which might be today. I'm having trouble visualizing what the humerous is doing. I may be understanding the whole thing incorrectly. Suppose the left forearm is in front. Which humerous are you talking about?


Edited by underdog (03/21/09 08:05 AM)
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#417390 - 03/21/09 08:53 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
hi,
insomnia for 2 days

I was naming the bone not really the part doing the main arterial closing.
Say Rt arm is choking, rt hand on lt biceps near elbow w/ lt hand behind head...Rt arm does all the work, as they just start to find a way out give space in crook of rt elbow, most people tend to tuck chin in this space...thats what you want, dont let em slip out, rt forearm is probably touching their lt Jaw and rt BICEPs is probably on their Rt jaw....DO THIS SLOWLY...if you start w/ standing choke and are walking backwards take them to the ground first, get them in a stable position (gaurd might work), reason I suggest go to ground is that you are Practicing the tech, starting from choke 1st on ground is even better, this allows them less mobility to hurt themselves and allows you time to BRING RT forearm towards rt biceps (Imagine a nutcracker, focus on the two opposite sides of jaw "Trying to meet in center)SLOW SLOW SLOW squeeze, the pain is bad, if the symphysis of the chin cracks it will break and no matterhow fast you let go its too late. Then once you elicit pain and know what to feel , take ukemi so you know why I ask SLOW....This was not designed as a submission but could be one....if it works and you dig it...ask what i was told it was for....real tech is asap you have Jaw, close snap the choking arm shut (MAYBE idea of wrist is brought to shoulder). dont want to walk em back...rt choke, lt palm heel to pelvis unbalances them (they must be unbalanced and choked, they take the bait more out of panic....Please be careful...tell them to tap when its too much, when you get it you wont believe how little it takes when both nerve plexus on either side of jaw are compressed same time...let me know how it works....and how it feels

_karl. better description? dont show many people, once you got it no need practice, its so simple yet so sick.
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#417391 - 03/21/09 08:54 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
MattJ Offline
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Hmmm........not sure why you wouldn't simply finish the choke if you have it locked in - surely it's less damaging and painful than breaking the opponent's jaw? Proper RNC will have the opponent out in <10 seconds.

BTW, It is possible to break someone's jaw from choke positions . I almost found out the hard way, although not from the RNC -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=1&vc=1
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#417392 - 03/21/09 09:33 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: MattJ]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
hi,

well, this was never intended to submit and it was intended to be finished in 2-3 sec, w/o an alarm being raised.

A particular instructor of mine who shall remain nameless pointed out that guerrilla warfare sometimes found one w/o weapons and tasked at sentry removal, this individual said that since both sides practice rear neck breaks, the counter is often instinctive esp w/ enemy hair shaved and both sweaty, this might be considered a PP destruction w/ concomitant Jaw breakage while backing up, even if it doesnt kill the enemy, little noise, no drag marks for 5 feet or so and as they will at least be in shock, break their neck in cover...now you have weapons and enemy uniform...Thats why all the cautions of doing it slowly...on a lighter side it will teach the student not to put their chin there.
I mention it only as this is the PP forum and I dont know how many people have actually felt the true pain of PP usage, this should emphasize the ease PP can truly be used for ill, OR accidentally cause it. Besides I'm old and may die, some things will go w/ me but this is sub lethal in practice and PAIN is educationial I dont know how many are familiar w/ this mode of PP (Bone being used, their bone), being stunned or ko'ed doesnt quite say PP can be real dangerous like the slow pain this does, not everyone reading the initial and following posts will understand how to. Needless to say SLOW, warn uke to be READY TO TAP.

-karl if this was too much say so.
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#417393 - 03/21/09 09:44 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
JKogas Offline
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A choke can be finished in just about as long. When being choked, I don't think its even possible for the person to make a sound.

If you're looking for something more "permanent" in so far as a "final" solution, I don't know.

The problems arise out of the inability to thoroughly test this maneuver to determine how well it actually works.

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#417394 - 03/21/09 10:18 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: JKogas]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
hi,

This more is of a good safe (if applied slow and safe) way to apply Dual PP using an individuals bone to press the points, a kinda novel approach, and it will reinforce the danger inherent in PP strikes way more than being stunned (it hurts like all get out).

And is just one of some PP attacks where the individuals own anatomy is used. Nothing really to prove, just as long as it is SLOWLY applied, more experiential.

Plus this may be a novel approach to PP in this forum, dont hit the PP use opponents bone to hit the PP.???
-karl. that kinda make sense?
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#417395 - 03/21/09 07:18 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
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As far as I know, the choke ought to do the job but just because it can, doesn't mean that you will always get it perfectly. Many people work on realeases from it in the hopes that if it is ever applied to them, it will not be applied with full intent to put them out.

Anyway, I was interested in the technique figuring it is good to have a back up. What if I am the one applying the RNC and someone is getting his chin in the elbow crook? Breaking a jaw sounds good!

I brought up the technique today in class with Evan Pantazi. He couldn't figure out what the technique was from my poor description but with the greater detail from the last post description, I think I can work it out with my coach, Cody Robyn. I don't think I want to tap someone out and try it on some one, I think I just want to walk through it without any pressure to see if I can understand it and could do it. You make it sound too dangerous for me to train with any real pressure.

Again, thanks for your contribution. There is so much negativity in this section that it is a treat to read something from someone who actually trains pressure points and has an idea I can learn from.
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#417396 - 03/24/09 01:27 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
One pressure point technique that I can vouch for working off the mat is what I call the "slimeball mustache (tm)". It can come in handy when you can't squeeze your arm under the chin enough to sink the rnc. It's fairly simple. Press your index finger over the persons upper lip, so that your middle knuckle is pressing into the divet (like your making a mustache over their upper lip with your finger). Then keep the pressure going into the divet, and also apply pressure upwards, against the nose. It's quite painful, and will usually make the person bend their head back enough so you can sink the choke.

--Chris
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#417397 - 03/25/09 10:29 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: Ames]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Good idea. I shall try it as a face choke to set up an RNC. Sounds like a very good idea.

Yes I like this point a lot. I use it from the bottom of a mount too. As I get older, it is hard to get the buck and roll escape or harder to get my leg around for a triangle choke. Rubbing side to side with upward pressure into this point gets the persons head back where they don't want it and makes it easier for me to get an escape technique on.


Edited by underdog (03/25/09 10:31 AM)
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#417398 - 03/25/09 11:21 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: Ames]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

One pressure point technique that I can vouch for working off the mat is what I call the "slimeball mustache (tm)". It can come in handy when you can't squeeze your arm under the chin enough to sink the rnc. It's fairly simple. Press your index finger over the persons upper lip, so that your middle knuckle is pressing into the divet (like your making a mustache over their upper lip with your finger).




I can vouch for that as well. We were taught to target that area (philtrum) for strikes and manipulations in American kenpo. Very painful and effective. "Where the head goes, the body must follow".
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#417399 - 03/31/09 06:36 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: MattJ]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

Yup, Master Dong taught us that one, though we were taught to use what we called tigermouth stike hand shape like a C-clamp with the base of the index finger to strike the philtrum, apply upward pressure and close the thumb (one sinus area) and index/middle fingers (other side) closing the C-clamp for head control, additional pain and head control obtained placing other hand on back of head...worse if one used what He called the hammed and anvil technique, striking philtrum and palm to back of head same time.

I have the official (ok it is 15yrs old so I cant say its still taught) GPD non fatal thumb strike/control area under different part of jaw than my original post....

Should I start a new post for these or just hang here or forget about it???

-Karl. Peace.
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#417400 - 04/01/09 05:37 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Keep going here. Then I'll know where to find it. I'm reading.
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#417401 - 04/01/09 06:52 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Should I start a new post for these or just hang here or forget about it???




Feel free to post it here, and thanks for the info.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#417402 - 04/01/09 07:14 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
OK Hi,

PP Control Tactics encompassed 6 days in two wks, empty hand and baton (tho strictly speaking now with the Asp, most LEO's I still know use Asp as a means to secure and acquire their primary weapon).

Leaving bruises or lacerations looked down upon.
The nerve plexus behind ear ('Dokko' in japanese I believe) was told to me to be off limits for this PP control/Stun.

First find the safer place-tighten throat/larynx and feel to either side, its soft, if you go towards end of jaw-too far...so striking point under jaw, past chin, before Dokko.

Second what to strike with, Master Dong recommended fist with thumbknuckle strike, GPD taught fist with thumb flat and tip of thumb barely exposed as striking point (if this makes sense good-not a full fist but index bent as if to make a type of 'Phoenix Eye' fist. Tip of thumb is striking point, initial direction is into sublingual area (upwards if they are standing.)

Technique requires not over much force, free hand grabs top of perps head like a basketball and simultaneously jab thumb tip under jaw w/ a bit of force will stun, driven in slowly will not kill (?) but I can attest to the pain inflicted, grind that thumb in up arc and down all the while using other hand to help guide perp to ground.

Was told a harder shocking type of jab would render stun or unconsciousness.

Again a safer jaw PP control/compliance technique, also I learned this 15 yrs ago and do not KNOW THAT GPD or any other LEO's still use this. Safety 1st.

-Karl. Peace.
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#417403 - 04/02/09 08:43 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
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Interesting. Opposite of what I do. I do not go for St 9, either side of throat. Especially not with older ukes. I'd be afraid to use it in the hospital too because of the danger, and that it would look like a very bad assault on the video cameras.

I have done many KO in the dojo, (never in the hospital), with TW 17 however. On the receiving end, I don't let people hit me hard or with any intent in St 9 but I do let people practice what they want on TW 17 behind the ear.

I shall have to think about this and wonder if my avoidance of St 9 in practice is too cautious. Certainly, TW 17 by comparision, seems pretty good for practice.
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#417404 - 04/04/09 08:20 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi underdog,

My fear in the hospitals I've worked at was the mental patient getting the bloody needle from me, as I worked w/ radioactive material couldnt just dump it in the sharps box...chairs are good for that:)

Facial PP mounted would extend your arm, ever try point of elbow to inside of biceps close to armpit or knuckle strike there or to both armpits as a means to shrimp out??

Or alternately a sharp knuckle under the ribs on either side of solar plexus can, possibly, strike the nerves of the lungs as they exit the protection of the ribs and before the rectus abdominus get in the way. just thinking and typing.
-Karl. Peace.
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do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417405 - 04/04/09 07:29 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
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Actually I've used all of those in the dojo. I work on the psych units in the hospital and never handle radioactive materials. Giving injections to psych patients can be a challenge.

I went to a 6 hour stick training today with pressure points. I did get to try the face choke to neck choke technique. Works nicely. It doesn't matter that we were using sticks, the principle was the same. Got the face choke on SI 18 and when uke raised the head, getting any choke on the neck was very easy.

It is hard to resist that SI 18 pain with empty hands and an escrima stick is so very much worse. Get it in there and turn the stick to stretch the point.

We used that SI 18 point in class last week too, stretching it in different ways and using it for control on the ground and all kinds of ways. On the ground, an elbow fits perfectly into it. Go down first towards the point from under the eye in order to stretch the area and get the extra cheek flesh out of the way that would otherwise pad the point. Then dig the elbow up towards the eye sinking it deep into the curve in the zygomatic bone. Very painful.

If you are blocking a wide hook on the inside (obviously) if you "cover" with the elbow forward you can spear any point you like on the arm. My favorites are P2, NUE 9 the spindle for the bicep. However, you can also keep going right into L1 or 2 on the chest or the nipple and scewer these on the elbow. I love elbows. They are great weapons.
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#417406 - 04/17/09 08:42 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi, been awhile..I've been busy getting dumped...

Which brought to mind Pressure Point control and if needed termination...

BUT not using your body...seems most people I talk to on the PP subject are focused on superficial points and when I ask "how about the two handed scapular slap?" (gotta hand it to ya Underdog, got the meridian points down) GPD taught a two handed kinda Palm corner 'shocking' slap (in Ba Gua palm strikes may be kind and 'Pushing' or rupture internal organs w/ a 'Shocking' strike)

The place we were hit, so as to learn where to hit, finally gave up its name to me 3-ish years ago or a tad longer ago when at a seminar Master Wei Lun Huang was emphasizing foot placement in relation to a point on the sole of the foot which formed a channel that ran to two points on the back in a cavity above the spine of the scapula

Bubbling Well...NOT the point I initially picked to offer as a good strike spot which allowed the reader to easily visualize the more important concept variation of PP control (which the reader is aware of, but perhaps in a more limited form) which will give easy access to good stunning or temporarily disabling PP not often trained as they lay not surface but mid to deep in body; and, so when struck yields few effective results. There is an existent concept to overcome the PP depth issue, common knowledge. I hope the presented variant is so full of unique and odd possibilities than the more static/limited widely known concept to overcome PP depth that...ooops not tellin yet...first the following and last what I like to call the variant concept, twixt the two ya ought to come up with the idea ...soooo...the original concept to overcome PP depth yielded__or arose from__a singular tool/weapon which yielded high positive response yet without one having trained hard to form a focal striking surface out of ones chosen body part (and causing no end of controversy on this forum as to the Intelligence/necessity or lack thereof in individuals just starting or long term freaks like me for training in something that could easily be injurious if trained improperly).

The original concept probably created the tool, a singular tool which by its existence may lend one to overlook or forget the variant concept.....more later but thats called a two parter...I like to call the variant concept by such a fashion that it is as vague as the PP tools/weapons ya'll come up with....."Improvised, Expedient Field Tools"

next...IEFT and the armpit...give us several...you've guessed already??

-Karl. Peace.
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#417407 - 04/17/09 10:49 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
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Hi,
I am pathetic, replying to my own reply and saying 'Hi'

Like memorable things so I moved some of the words around and would like to see if this prompts replies.

FITE...Field Improvised Tools of Expediency...vs.
The Kuobaton as an adjunct to effectively strike the deeper seated PP on the Body and legs.

The Kubaton is great for such a purpose BUT it is limited and yet has such a good history of success that I believe many have forgotten or never were provided with the motivation to explore the more versatile and infinite possibilities of what I just called FITE, if anyone knows of a historical name for what I am about to propose let everyone know...

FITE- "Field Improvised Tools of Expediency....effective improvisation of seeing day to day generally common Objects in the place you are at when you suddenly need a Tool, in this case primarily to strike deeper seated PP and get results.

Example1: when I attended a PP control Tactics Seminar for GPD SWAT back in the early 90's we were taught a "Scapular Slap" and I named the PP struck as "Bubbling Well".
Recently asked a Sheriff form Talahassee and he told me that was no longer taught as it had a low rate of success.

I would guess it would work if struck w/ a kubaton...oops a kubaton in each hand...technique to stun required both sides be struck. Now who carries 2 kubaton, and who always has access to the single one probably attached to their keys?
FITE-most places of work have several "Sharpie" Markers about, either end dreadfully resembles a kubaton, grab two and the scapular slap is now effective as two hammer fists holding a sharpie slam Lt and Rt Bubbling well.
since a fist holding a sharpie will display a kubaton like end extending past thumb and little finger ends this opens up a world of PP attacks.

One more example and ya'll reading come up with some everyday objects to explore their uses, OR this post just flounders proving how lame I am

I'm kinda tired and have to get yelled at by X-Chick so heres a quickie...

a standard Magazine is a great short baton IF rolled properly.....ok, start rolling from the page part 1st so the final object is a tight rolled magazine with its SPINE exposed. The spine is the striking surface so I hope ya trained some edged weapons-smack a knife holding hand and just maybe they'll drop it, follow immed w/ a strike to brachial plexus on either side of neck...you got the idea.

hope anyone who might read this likes it.

-Karl. Peace.
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do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417408 - 04/18/09 08:30 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
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When I teach self defense, I have people practice with make-shift weapons. Typically, I ask participants to come to class with a bag containing 3-5 household items. They do not know how they will be used. Then, early in the training session, I have them use these items in a solo 1 minute (aerobic) battle while others either do the same in their (safe distance) solo practice circles, or observe and give pointers. It is good to see how nonmartial arts participants "discover" how different weapons can be used and even different parts of the same weapon. For example, some will want to fight with the mop or broom that is in the dojo. This "weapon" has different potential depending on whether you are using the handle or the floor end.

I love kubaton and always carry one. With the hammer fist, it is a point attacker like cranes beak strike. It doesn't twist well or stretch tissue like you can striking/sliding into a point with a fist or palm, but it makes up for it with how hard it is.

The end of the kubaton also can be used in tuite like the punyo/handle end of a jo/bo/escrima. It traps.

What point are you calling Bubbling Well? Do you know the meridian name and number? I keep thinking of a point called bubbling brook that is K1 and you don't mean that one. I am familiar with points on the back from bladder and SI meridians and the upper back from triple warmer and gall bladder meridians. I just checked the name of the shu points and don't see one called "bubbling well".
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#417409 - 04/18/09 10:35 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

underdog...thats what I was hoping you'd tell me

I was not given any name by GPD, we just got hit and hit back till we got it (great way to learn ,huh)

This may help, I attended many sesshin at Mountain and Rivers Order Zen Monastery, and 10 Hrs a day for 7 day and no speaking or even eye contact, One gets to about to fall asleep sitting...the Diado Roshi and the few long term residents he had run the extended sitting were also sitting, but some way they 'knew' when to get up with the kyosaku (stick which one was hit on the same two points GPD had taught, but the resident monk knew just how hard to hit and ...da___n I was awake).

The third time this point came up was as mentioned, Master Huang was correcting how we walked the Ba Gua circle emphasizing a point on the plantar surface of the foot (I believe the Japanese call the point koson ( one of several used for resuscitation)), and how by correctly walking this was a 'well' to gather and move chi in a circuit, then discussed waht he called "bubbling well" (Remember he was born and raised in Guangdong, so terms may be different) and how massage was beneficial and pointed out that striking the point was detrimental.

I browsed my nice 1st ed of Shanghai college of medicines'
"Acupuncture, a Comprehensive Text" and kept seeing in the charts...a collection of points in what I assume to be the area to strike, TB15,B36 and SI11,12 and 13.....and as it covered a fair surface GB21 may have been involved...

does the Zen awakening point help, and while broad the collection of points all seemed to be potentially 'it' or striking the confluence of all those might be 'it'

happy to know others practice everyday objects, I'll mention a way to use the magazine spine to do a not so common knife tap that allows one to keep distance but will "disturb vision" (not a PP, just cool)

-Karl. Peace.
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#417410 - 04/29/09 02:26 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
I'm schizo, replying to myself then...
Hi...Underdog you there is this transference disorder or like Bach...in a Fugue?

Does the dinky # in bottom indicate how many have viewed this semi-monologue or how much $$$$ the members have pooled to ICE ME

To The promised sneaky knife trick you can do with a FITE , esp. a tightly rolled magazine (remember spine out)...it is an acupuncture point I believe and what we want to strike, but I diverge cause it fits FITE ( If it 'twer even a simple butter knife...quick tap, in and out fast)...But a rolled magazine spine (even if you wrap say a cell phone cord about center of mag pages prior to rolling like that huh?) is not all to sharp, unless

1. you know where your edge is, Knife, sword and machete practitioners have the...advantage.

2. remember the other person is armed maybe, precise and focused...

3. Y'all heard this one before jimminy crick-its the mid line of the skull near beginning of hairline

dont know if any one is actually reading (so is this going to make me blind?)...but yo young folk keep hittin each other you might have more C-Spine/Odontoid X-Rays and CT Head scans than I have....
If your even just about to end Mr. Knife dude w/ a Magazine (Right, hahaha...but, if you had time to get the magazine spine rolled right, theres more) Yo BP and Mr. Per....wait I got DUMPED...Crazed Knife Fiend Ms.(Name here) her BP is even higher.....Quick tap on "Nobles Peak" area of hairline with anything sharp, stapler, edge of stapler, nicely rolled Car and Babes annual and if you dont get at least One gout of spurting blood, well at least most will "Possibly" blind or impair Ms. Psycho knife r to get in a shot or two at...THE WEAPON HAND...Master Dong told me that growing up in Vietnam when sparring 1/2 point was given to clean hard shots to the back of the hands or to the dorsal aspect of the foot...and my cute knuckles have tapped the back of several folks hands, not too hard tho...

ok If Im still alive or at least functional in a a few days, might move to Port St John down south a here if I can land this job, if not...can we take up a pity the FOOO who trusts a WOMAN collection so I can cry while watching "Fist of Legend"....oh, home-less, are there electrical outlets in the woods?

stay tuned and seriously that # is that people who actually put up with my rambling detours of mispelling and grandma butchering...cause I better add some simple PP to the Aikido and PP thang goin...

PS...You KNOW your getting old when the casual dare to your once 5y/o student turned 18 now, makes you sweat until hes choked, cause ritual Seppku crossed my mind tonight...darn I've created a future beast...I feel like cryin CAUSE IT LASTED MORE THAN A MIN, I must be dying...

-Karl. Peace and an unraveled big paper clip
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#417411 - 04/29/09 08:58 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
The hairline cluster is OK for practice. The angle is tricky so for real self defense if my life depended on it, I'd just shoot for the eyes and call it a day. The hairline cluster kind of strikes down and doesn't work well for me in practice. For a take-down, I'd rather use third eye, a bit lower, rather than risk sliding around on a sweaty forehead too far up. With a baseball cap on with the bill forward, supposedly, you can hit the bill straight on, which would give you the downward angle for the hairline cluster strike. Dillman talks about it in one of his old videos, however, I've only heard of one person actually getting that KO for real. My coach says that when he was a young lad of about 8, a girl actually KO'd him with that strike to his hat.
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#417412 - 04/29/09 10:26 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Cool, thanks underdog,
i thought there was a good spot there (caught a bokken w/ my world famous face/skull block once and it dropped me)

You the acu guru...

I had momentarily diverged from common object use for PP control just to mention the confluence of thin skin and high vascular nature of the area lending itself to a semi-edge (phone book spine say) longer reach object and ease of laceration to induce "blood blinding" as moment to run or grab something else.

Been getting ok w/ 9 section chain whip past yr (incumbent pain as well), now I notice chain whip in lots of objects, belt buckle will be recognized by observant Jet Li fans as he uses his belt as chain whip to lacerate and momentarily "blood blind" the huge Billy Chow, belt w/ both hands similar to 3 section and chain whip on knife arm trapping.

Started too soon playing w/ makeshift meteor hammer(2 lg auto sockets & 20ft rope, more time to dodge but didnt once, forearm lump huge...Garden hose w/ brass spray nozzle not as flexible, darn if it didnt start to work after almost cranking ma head.

One of Master Dongs Bros was knifed in Vietnam, became acupuncturist. sittin alone together at breakfast he ask if I had a question for him (Psychic OMD's). duh Im young w/ an amazing opportunity and I ask...Best Acu point to strike to kill or immed incapacitate...well thats me

He actually didnt even ponder...immediate reply was ARMPIT, blunt strike with a clipboard or book numbs, knuckles, esp Pheonix eye fist or thumb knuckle drops em and may slowly kill if not treated, pencil, pen etc, the Perp is toast.

Armpit has surrounding excess tissue for Chin-Na grasp or tear, pectoral attachment near top of humerus, triceps attachment near lats, Lats are option but youd need pliers.

Anything to give out about Armpit not obvious like vascular, lymph chains, central tendon station and easy dislocation w/ strike from underneath. I've always liked that spot just to see how easy it is to access sparring and grappling.

-Karl. Peace.
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#417413 - 04/30/09 08:04 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I don't usually use arm pit unless fighting with a beginner because an experienced fighter keeps his elbows down better. You really need to create the opening. I've certainly heard a lot about H1 point though.

There is a condition called "crutch palsy" wherein people with temporary need of crutches, and inadaquate physical therapy to teach them how to use them, lean on the crutches with their armpits instead of supporting their weight on the hand rests and using the tricept muscles more to lift their weight. They get numb and weak in the arms. I'm surprised they don't get problems in the brachial plexus or in the heart. Maybe it is because the armpit pad is flat and soft and doesn't really dig into the point like a punch would.
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#417414 - 04/30/09 10:17 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Yup underdog,
a good set o big knuckles or the auto fore-knuckle really help.
I use an Aikido concept, or rather understanding of reflexive human nature to open the armpit...

Lots of 'Breath' throws and so many i've seen fail cause they dont apply what Oshima Sensei called the basketball effect, just reversed due to armpit looking at ground.

In the throw, the arm is barred and head pinned to ones shoulder/chest (and YES shove that thumb behind the jaw while directing uke head to ground...woah, let go and reflexively head and body POP UP) now one can complete the throw (and YES shove index and middle finger under, up and in base of midJaw as they arise and direct uke (with some pain compliance) to more rapidly continue popping up....oh off balance ( a good shove and ...oohhh feet off floor, drop)

Palm the opponents face and direct to their rear and down, they dont like it and most often BOTH hands reflexively open armpit by trying to get your hand off their face, too bad that hand wasnt the one to worry about, ram a phoenix eye fist index knuckle in that pit and hold your ears....
as a beneficial aside, please folks I AM NOT SUGGESTING this next as to be used in ordinary American life, but things can change and you might be defending home soil...Lo and behold the Evil empire scout rounds a bend, palm that face back and drive your knife just above larynx almost to base of tongue and drive it home to what used to be the evil ones brain stem...silent and kinda bloodless...I Hear.

-Karl. Peace.
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#417415 - 05/03/09 12:53 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
hi all,

I am now homeles so future post will be erratic

love y'all keep this post alive as I'll be back

Karl. Peace. maybe bye and dirt nap, hope not
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do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417416 - 05/04/09 08:21 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Sorry for your misfortune. Take care of yourself. First things first.
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The older I get, the better I was!

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#417417 - 05/04/09 06:24 PM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: underdog]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi
finally got brief internet access...will be on in future...no hear in two weeks all my planning fell through...

Anterior Tibial nerve (very open at flexion point of foot and anterior aspect ankle between the medial and lateral malloeoli)...I was to kick this point (best if closed w/ opponent but a good lucky shot ) with the edge of boot either instep or outer part. will drop a person as well as striking the common pernial (Sp?), ie kicking side of thigh.

Also lends itself to a strike with any tool of expediency resembling baton...chair leg, that ol rolled magazine, grab a stick (and hope its not too rotton )

It can be very unexpected and hard to block Using the instep side of boot sorta resembles Wing Tsun Kick, and ...I've foot swept people using my hand, if that has worked then a kick there is as well unexpected.

Thoughts?

-Karl. Peace. see ya soon...Just when everyone was breathing a sigh of "no more weird posts from that dude"
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#417418 - 05/05/09 11:07 AM Re: Naked Choke as Bait to damamge PP and Jaw [Re: karl314285]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
There are actually a lot of points there- all the leg meridians except kidney have a point along that line/arc across the front of the ankle. Boot is completely nasty. Scrape kick or stomp down and into the small bones below the points. If you keep standing on the foot and take the person down backwards, you should be able to get a fracture. You can also cut into those points with either ridge or blade side of your hand in grappling.
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