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#416995 - 03/15/09 11:11 AM Re: eye damaging [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


this is true to an extend the personality of a person (among other factors) does contribute to the response and effect of an eye attack. this is also true for any other attack aswell though.





Absolutely. That's one reason why I said that no single attack is a guaranteed “fight stopper”. But that very notion underscores what I've been continually saying; that there is no substitute for skill in functional delivery systems.


Quote:


for these individuals the eye is still one of the highest percentage targets, even if the effect is less on them.





High percentage and low percentage at the same time. Low percentage in that it can be a very difficult target to actually hit; particularly without skill in delivery systems.


Quote:

“who are, by the way, the one's you are likely to be fighting.”

Yes and no. yes in the sense that it is always a good idea to prepare for the worst case scenario, and that includes preparing for a minimal or non existent effect.





I agree. It's always the best approach to prepare for the worst case scenario, which again outlines the necessity of having skill in delivery systems. That's the same reason to practice ground fighting, clinch fighting and stand-up (boxing) fighting.


Quote:


no in the sense that the majority of these attackers are actually false personalities, they may very well be aggressive but it is a means to an end. like the typical bully they are aggressive as aggressiveness permits them to gain the sense of power over a weaker individual, thus boosting some lacking aspect of them selves. how ever at the core these guys are cowards there hyper aggressiveness is false, a front if you like it can easily crumble. this is where behavioural tactics come in to play. especially if the individual is a truly hyper aggressive.





True for a lot of people. But I've met many very aggressive, conditioned and skilled individuals who would be absolute demons to have to fight on the street and there's not a single shred of cowardice in them. It's a blanket statement to suggest otherwise. Aggressive opponents come in all varieties, I think it's safe to say.


Quote:


“But there is enough evidence to show that they are notoriously unreliable. That's been the point I've been trying to make.”

Actually the evidence shows that eye trauma from impact and pressure produce quite predictable responses.





I agree that you can produce predictable responses. The eye waters, etc., etc. I have never disagreed with that. But my point has been along slightly different lines than this. I'm not disagreeing with this at all.


Quote:


in fact an attack to the eye is probably the most reliable attack for ANYONE to deliver. a few outlying examples does not constitute evidence of its unreliability, to the contrary the fact that they are outliers and not typical supports the reliability of the attack.





In terms of theoretical, mechanical responses, sure. We can definitely say that if you poke someone in the eye, it's going to hurt, water, blink, etc. Those are theoretical, mechanical responses. Now all we have to do is develop the ability to actually hit that small, moving target under pressure of attack. Worst scenarios are that such a pressured attack includes Tank Abbott style, sledgehammer punching. I mean, it is that worst case scenario that we have to prepare for, correct?



Quote:


simply put there is far more evidence indicating the reliability of eye attacks then there is exceptions to the rule.





Evidence does indeed indicate. Theoretical evidence based on past knowledge happening to someone else, from some other time. But theory is one thing. Application is another. I don't know if I'll be able to hit such a small moving target next time around before I'm KO'd.

Look, I'd target the eyes as much as anyone maybe. But I've seen what happens to people when they throw a weak jab that lands – a person will walk right in on it. What about an eye jab that misses? I have nothing against attacks like that. It's been my point that such things simple shouldn't be relied upon.


Quote:


“Think about it this way folks; if you were out with a loved one and someone jabbed or thumbed YOU in the eye, would you quit? I know I damn sure wouldn't. In fact, I'd be fighting back with greater will and determination. I'm sure many of you would as well right?”


If they just jabbed or thumbed me then I agree, and left it at that then yes I would push on,





Of course you would. So would many others. That's all I'm saying.



Quote:

but having experienced real eye trauma a guarantee I (and everyone else) Will react to the attack. I will reflexively protect the eye and momentarily check for damage, I can not help it it is beyond my conscious control. Any one who claims they will not react to an eye attack is simply BS'ing


.


I never said otherwise.


Quote:


let me say this though if I AM ALLOWED TO RECOVER FROM ANY ATTACK, and my loved one is involved (or not) I will fight back... not necessarily with more determination though, simple because if I have to fight in the first place It will be full on from the get go and stay full on till after the threat is removed/negated. If I'm fighting then it is because I have no choice and my life or someone else's is in danger...... there is no other reason to fight.





I agree with this. But you know what I was saying. My point was that some people discover a second wind when they feel they are about to lose something important to them (in this case, an eye). I think thats understandable.


Quote:


The fact is and this is backed up by evidence, physiology and psychology, an attack or threat to the eye will cause a reaction.





Of course. I never implied otherwise. All I was trying to say was that if that's all a person has, they don't have much.


Quote:


stories about an unknown friend of a friend, or occasional training instances do not prove anything other then sometimes it doesn't hurt, every time I will bet My balls on the fact that there was a reaction. and in every story I have heard that sounds even remotely true the guy who was eye attacked was allowed to cover.





Sure, there's been a reaction. The reaction in MY case was that I beat the [censored] out of the guy that attempted it.

Here's another reaction to consider (that some may not): Trying to gouge someone in the eyes who is more skilled, will simply remind him of what he can do (and do better if he's more skilled) in return.


Quote:


take all of the training instances involving eye attacks you will find a great deal more responded in stopping the training then and there, you'll hear people claim I was hit in the eye and I continued on my training, I bet the reacted and recovered before they continued.





I will say that I reacted, but recovered AS I was training. I didn't have to continue. I can say the same for everyone else that has trained with me for the past seven years that I operated a gym.

Now with that said, I've seen guys lose a contact. But they were more concerned about finding the contact than in stopping because they had to recover.


Quote:


Any way, I think every one knows My view on this, it is based on medical and actual evidence, and I can't see anyone being able to over ride that evidence with a story about some Brazilian brown belt super fighter.





The story about the Brazilian fighter is just one such story. Pages could be filled with similar ones. But I only offered that because of it's truth, not because I made it up. If anyone doubts the veracity of that story, they should feel free to contact Burton Richardson via email, or visit his site's forum. He does answer his email.



Quote:


(no Offense John, but none of the evidence you have given here holds up very well under scrutiny,





None taken Drew. I'm not trying to convince you of anything or change the way you approach things. But to not understand my point of view is to remain closed-minded of it's possible truth. After all, I have said that I understand and agree with your point of view MANY times during this (and other) discussion(s).



Quote:

do you think the brown belt would relay this story with the inclusion of how distracted he was by the thumb in his eye, or do you think he will conveniently not mention it and jump straight to where he returned the favour. even witnesses can not truly "see or feel" what happens with the eye attack.





Honestly, I couldn't tell you the answer to that. I have no idea. All I know is the end result, which is all that matters to me. Who cares if someone “reacts” to an eye attack, if they still end up beating your ass at the end of the day? Would that be some kind of “moral victory”? That would be like me saying, “Yeah, you beat my ass so bad that I ended up in hospital with my jaw wired shut and brain damage, but YOU REACTED to my eye jab”?

Yeah, he reacted alright – by beating my ass with more gusto because I didn't have any actually fighting ability to back up such an attack.

That is and has been my only point.


Quote:


to them it may seem that the guy was unaffected whilst inside the guys head it's something like " me eye me eye "...see no display of reaction or response does not mean there was none)





I would agree with that Drew. But there again, this hasn't been my point.



Quote:


please bear in mind I think we all agree that
eye attacks are high percentage targets (compared to others)





In all honesty, can't it be said that they are high percentage in one way, and low percentage in another? I think I have illustrated this point often enough.


Quote:


an eye attack on its own is not a necessarily a fight stopper ( nor is any other tactic)





I agree one hundred percent.


Quote:


violence can be thought of in one dimension as it is very much multidimensional (BEP, physical, social in out and spun about)





Certainly!


Quote:


Drew is extremely intelligent and an incredibly good looking fella





But if you go around blinding everyone with eye jabs, you could make that statement and no one would be able to argue otherwise.


Thanks for the great discussion Drew. I sincerely appreciate your point of view and to reiterate, I agree with everything you've said.

Cheers!

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#416996 - 03/15/09 03:36 PM Re: eye damaging [Re: JKogas]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I would just like to point out an important factor in regards to attacks to the eye, irrespective of probability of success in execution etc.

Damage to the cornea and/or retina, more often than not leads to, at least, irreprable partial blindness.

Not only is this not 'instant' on point of attack (it often phases in over 48 hrs after the damage, as pain levels increase as the body processes the level of damage done, and nerves and blood vessels die), but it is also, if intentional, a thorn in the side of the legal definition of SD.

Now I know that we are only ever supposed to be defending ourselves from 'life or death' evildoers, and I can only speak from a UK standpoint, but quite frankly, the chances of the person engaging you in a fist fight actually wanting to kill you, is still relatively slim.
Far more likely is to be accosted by a drunk, or someone with anger towards you over some personal issue (justified or not), who thinks you need a good old fashioned walloping.

That is never a good situation to be in, but if the police turn up to break it up, and/or make arrests, and find you knuckle deep in a guys eye socket, then 'but he started it' is not going to work in your favour.

Intentionaly blinding someone for life in return for a left hook is not reasonable force, and you should think long and hard about where you are at emotionaly, if this is what you think is a valid intention in a fistfight.

*this is where the response comes back that 'there are no rules' and that 'if a guy wants to hurt me he will regret it' and blah blah. I know this. I am not shy of violence. I am just pointing out that the need to do irreperable, life ruining harm, is very rare, and should not be your 'go to' reaction in every situation*
_________________________
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#416997 - 03/15/09 04:11 PM Re: eye damaging [Re: Cord]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Cord, I agree with you totally, and this is a point I've been trying to get across. There are 'rules' of the street: they are called laws, and to not train with that in mind is poor self defence in my book.

Duane said:

Quote:

SO they [eye gouges] are just like punches and kicks and armbars....they are not 100%




In many ways, yes. However the difference is, unlike eyegouges, one can train punches, kicks and armbars in a full contact setting. The same can't be said for eyegouges.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416998 - 03/15/09 10:02 PM Re: eye damaging [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
By the way, did I mention that eye jabs frickin' HURT, lol!

Damned if they don't bother the eye! Can hurt like hell and the eye closes automatically. Certainly a great tool to have in your arsenal.

Many times when I've been hit, it's been by the knuckle area of a boxing glove! Even a 16oz glove will get in there. I couldn't tell you how many times that's happened to me.

-John

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#416999 - 03/16/09 03:18 AM Re: eye damaging [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day John.

To save me effort and everyone else reading time, just Pretend I quoted all your individual items from your previous post and added Agree after them.

basically I do agree with everything you have said even if from a slightly different angle.

Hey we are all trying to paint the same bowl of fruit.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#417000 - 03/16/09 04:08 AM Re: eye damaging [Re: Cord]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Chord and Ames,

I agree with you guys wholeheartedly.

This is why there must always be continuum of force implied with self protection.

I teach womens self defence (among other things). I show them how they can physically maim a larger stronger attacker (with Richard Dimitri's permission I include the Senshido "Shredder" concept as part of the course).

One of the the things I stress in this an appropriate (reasonable) level of force. the shredder can be applied with varying levels of force, ranging from annoying to disfiguring.
I remind them that you wouldn't want to gouge out poor drunk uncle Bob's eye and rip his ear off for getting a bit frisky, and copping a feel at a wedding. where as if some one is intend on causing you life altering harm then thats where you let you lioness of the leash. (my WSD course is called "Pussycat to Lioness"

Any way I digress ( yeah thats become a habit lately, ok maybe not just lately)

My point being is that you must pre-plan you options, both in regards to the law and to your own personal morality. you have to pre-draw lines. lines not to be crossed by you and lines not to be crossed by others. it works sort of like the old "Coopers Colour Codes", a certain level of force does not come into play unless the predetermines line has been crossed. this also cuts down on the should I shouldn't I moment that can result in a momentary freeze.

check out the thread" Drawing Lines"
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#417001 - 03/16/09 05:31 AM Re: eye damaging [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
One thing that has come up that is 100% correct is the difficulty in "hitting " with an eye strike.

If you go back and look at my posts I only ever refer to an "Eye attack". not an eye strike.

Eye strikes such as the eye jab, are prone to the same limitations as any accuracy required strike. Under acute stress (such as an attack) your ability to deliver fine motor skills are greatly diminished this includes the fine motor skills required for accuracy.

Accuracy can be trained to resemble gross motor movement but it does take time to acquire, either way accuracy is diminished under stress. This also applies to all sniper type shots to the chin or any other target that is only 1 inch in diameter.

The eye does have one advantage though, each eye is recessed into the skull forming a cone like slope leading into to it, this helps in that miss aimed shots can still slide into the eye, but even then the structure around the eye does still help to protect it.

The main disadvantage is that, being a survival critical organ, we are more likely to flinch when something is thrown toward it. the same things that guarantee a reaction to an eye attack means that striking the eye is even more difficult then striking an equivalent size target.

This is why I recommend that eye jabs and strikes be used much like a jab as an reaction or opening maker. to be followed directly by a powerful finishing move.

this is where I agree with John (Jkogas), you need to have skill and an effective delivery system, particularly for an eye jab/strike.

I prefer to "Attack" the eyes instead of "striking" them (semantics I know). Raking, gouging, pressing, scooping, squeezing, scratching etc are much easier and have a much greater chance of working than simply striking the eye.

put your hand anywhere on your face (or someone else's) and your fingers are only ever a few centimeters or less from an eye, most often you don't even need to move your hand only your fingers to "get a finger in the eye". we are conditioned to a degree to expect a hand coming towards our head in a fight/violent encounter. We expect to be struck in the head/face however we are not conditioned to be mauled in the face, it is not typical to what a fight is, and that is where it's advantage lies.

Of course getting your hand on the face requires a delivery system, I prefer a behavioural delivery system over the traditional fight or sporting deliver system. this means you use the behavioural and psychological aspects of a confrontation to deliver your attack instead of a physical delivery of it. A simple example is to feign fear and compliance to lift their ego and drop their guard (they think " I have this woos right where I want him.... he's mine" even if only on a subconscious level) when this happens you launch your attack. Hence you use behaviour as a tool to deliver you attack.

It actually works very well, particularly in a genuine self defence situation.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#417002 - 03/16/09 06:26 AM Re: eye damaging [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:



Hey we are all trying to paint the same bowl of fruit.





I completely agree.



Now for the other half of the argument (from my point of view)...


Tactics help technique. I don't think there's any question about that.

For example, maybe I'm on the ground, on the bottom with some ridiculously heavy guy on top of me.

Technically, you're taught to create posture and frame, bridge, then scoot your hips away to create space, etc.

A tactic such as a bite in this case, might help to create just enough space to allow shrimping with greater ease (if you aren't being cross-faced that is). But there is one instance where a tactic (the bite) assisted technique (the shrimp).

The tactic didn't replace the shrimp, it facilitated it. Of course if the guy was wearing a thick, leather biker's jacket, you're out of luck - which illustrates why technique in a functional delivery system is needed.


Now, the same example used in the clinch...

Lets say I'm in close and want to create a little space to execute an arm-drag. During the pummeling, I thumb the guy in the eye (the tactic). He "reacts" by pushing away from me slightly, giving me the space to hit the arm-drag.

Once again, the tactic here assisted the technique.

Now lets say that I just tried to do this with the actor, Peter Faulk, lol. Well, Peter has a glass eye and all that happens is that his "eye" squirts out and rolls across the floor. Again, it illustrates the need for a functional delivery system (a clinch game), when the situation arises that the tactic fails.

Here my tactics are backed up by skill in functional delivery systems and are not a cheap substitute instead.

Tactics can help, there's no doubt. And this is why I harp on the whole idea of the delivery system model. I suppose I've seen the other side of this far too often in the goofy world of martial arts where guys are lead by form (tactics) over function (delivery system). Anyone is architecture knows that function must always precede form. It's no different here.

I've known people who are taught things like the eye jab, biting and so on, who never learned first the fundamentals of boxing, wrestling or jiu-jitsu. It's absurd to think that a person without those three basic skills will be better at eye jabbing or biting, than the person who has those three delivery systems in place.

Even then, it can be said that to the person who has those three skills, "dirt" (in the form of eye attacks, biting, and so on) isn't even necessary (but is certainly still useful).

Quick fixes aren't a substitute for time, blood, sweat and tears. People have to have skill first which means, functional, tried and tested technique, before tactics like eye jabs, biting, hair pulling, etc are in place. I think its just common sense.

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#417003 - 03/17/09 07:09 PM Re: eye damaging [Re: lucifervalentine]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

I have looked around and found the eye is one thing people hate to have hit and that any damage to it causes huge amounts of panic. So anyways who has seen or had to injure or take out an eye on an attacker?




456 - In several incidents I have used eye strikes successfully the reaction I've seen were turning away one or two hands over the eye, to dropping to thr ground and rolling, or wild grouping in the air with one hand over the eye but both eyes closes on near misses I seen the head jerks away and turn back toward me pi$$ed off but not for long because of the low attack and continued combinations.

These were eye slashes, jabs or flicks barely breaking the skin of the eye my purpose was never to try to Gouge into the eye socket just to momentarily impair my attackers. Most of the times these guys either had a weapon in hand or stated they where going to pull one out or multiples. So in my mind the situation was serious enough to use such a tactic. In situation such as this you want to attack the vitals sight, breathing, trama/pressure points and movement/joints.

We all know the thumb to the eye technique and the thrusting gouge unless you already have the person injuried it is my opinon the human body reacts too quickly and violently to compete such a move in an exchange not saying that it can't be done but you will catch some incoming while in the process. I guess it could be like running into or catching a power jab or thrusting hand to the eye, I never really try a power gouge.

As its been stated this is a serious responce with serious results. The time in class I caught a eye flick to the eye armed with a wooden knife, I did the screaming wild swinging grouping air thing, that sh%$ hurt, the knife went flying. Both eyes were watering I had a busted blood vessle in my eye we learned to use eye goggles in practice. Sensei said he was sorry but sorry my a$$ that sh$% hurt, that was the end of moving in full speed on him.
_________________________
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#417004 - 03/17/09 09:42 PM Re: eye damaging [Re: Neko456]
Rez Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 9
I know what you guys mean. When I spar with someone they all go for the eye. I feel like my face is a fist magnet. Once they get me there it take several moments for me to recover or I'll have to get water. IT HURTS LIKE HELL!

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