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#416565 - 03/09/09 02:28 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Ames,

I am familiar with the Harvard study you cite-it proves that individuals can assert control over their body temperature using meditation and breathing. This is interesting and surprising, as it is extremely rare and hard to do. However, it says nothing whatsoever about chi despite your assertions but you leap from this to claim it to prove your own supernatural beliefs, which is a bit sly.

I will hunt out the papers on Chi testing that failed to record any chi energy whatsoever. There is also a relatively recent video of medical doctors and physicists in the US wiring up so-called Chi Masters to test for any unusual energy when they claimed to be projecting chi. They detected nothing. I will post them when I find them again.

That said, as I said to Neko, you are asking me for proof of a negative. The onus is on you to prove chi exists if you assert this. The article you cite does not do it and in fact no such proof exists so I do not really expect to see it.

But guess what, according to this guy Chi is a gas. Unfortunately it seems to be an undetectable gas so inert that no one can identify it:

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Scientific_Explanation_of_Chi_Kung_No_4_-_Chi_Circulation.html

However this martial artist is closer to my position and explains the logical standpoint very well:

http://strikingthoughts.wordpress.com/2007/12/31/chi-debunked/



B.

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#416566 - 03/09/09 02:35 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"So part of the reason why we might not know much about this 'stuff' is simply because it does not fit into our current conceptions of physiology/anatomy, and therefore remains difficult to 'prove,' until the conception changes."

I would rather look at physical explanations than believe in "The Force". You have it all the wrong way around-you want to believe in it so it is the only explanation. Are you familiar with Occam's Razor? OR does not lead you to Chi!

"I'd also suggest looking into the current revolution going on in cognitive therapy, in which ancient Buddhist mindfulness practices are being used to treat major psycological issues--then I'd like to hear you say again that these people had "virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy"."

This has what to do with Chi? You seem to want to widen Chi to mean whatever practice you feel like. Getting offended on behalf of some monks is just a diversion...

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#416567 - 03/09/09 04:17 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Quote:

Ames,

I am familiar with the Harvard study you cite-it proves that individuals can assert control over their body temperature using meditation and breathing. This is interesting and surprising, as it is extremely rare and hard to do. However, it says nothing whatsoever about chi despite your assertions but you leap from this to claim it to prove your own supernatural beliefs, which is a bit sly.


B.




Barad

Ames said right from the get go " It's not my intention to prove whether or not chi exists,"

I don't think he is saying "Chi" exists. I think he is offering evidence that what some people call/believe to be "Chi" is actually being studied from a scientific point of view to find out what exactly happens to the body/mind (if anything happens at all) during yoga/qi going et al. In other words, people in the scientific community are trying to debunk "chi" while remaining open to the fact that a lot of these things (e.g. Qi Gong) can have health benefits that can be explained in a rational/scientific way.

That to me is what Ames is saying.

Once again, I found Taiji to be helpful in my PCS recovery because it helped correct my postural problems which medical studies have shown to be helpful in concussion recovery. Many long-term PCS or Traumatic Brain Injury sufferers have reported great success with Chiropractory/Physiotherapy relating to their spine/neck/head.

Nothing magically about it, just relaxed purposeful movement that in my case had healing effects IMO.

My Taiji teacher is a qualified nurse. He told me he had a health check done a few years ago shortly after turning 50. Amongest other things, he had his lung capacity measured. The doctor said it was the strongest reading he had ever seen. My Taiji teacher passed the fitness test with flying colours. The doctor told him to "Keep doing what he was doing". Aside from regular walks, all my teacher does is Taiji and Qi Gong (ableit for several hours a day!!).

Now, as Barad said, perhaps he would be just as fit, with just as strong lung capacity, if he did other excercise forms e.g. if he were a marathon runner. I'd bet good money though his knees/shins/hips wouldn't be in such great shape if he ran marathons as long as he did Taiji though.

This is a point I am trying to make: Kata/Yoga/Pilates/Qi Gong/Taiji can all be great for a persons health, not just for the work out, but also because they are a LOT less likely to injure you than many other excercise forms that would give you similar benefits (such as similar cardio benefits). I also believe that these movement systems can be helpful in "correcting" postural imbalances built up over a life time, which again can only be helpful to someones health.

Victor recounted a story on here of a friend of his who was terminally ill. His movement ability deteriorated to the point where he could hardly move. Victor said he was still able to perform some Taiji though, which surprised the doctors.

Does this mean "Chi" exists? Of course not. Does that mean Taiji has absoultely no worth and can't help improve a persons health in ways other movement systems can't? I don't believe so either. Just a belief based on my own experience that I am trying to explain rationally to myself, if no one else.

The problem in this issue is that opinions often get polarized i.e. Eastern movement systems are better than medicine/Eastern movement systems are a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

I try to keep my mind open.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#416568 - 03/09/09 04:19 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Thought I'd put some definitions of chi proposed by these google results. Google search: What is chi?

http://www.chirunning.com/shop/pages.php?pageid=7
Quote:

Chi is energy - the life giving energy that unites body, mind and spirit. Everyone has Chi. When you die, your Chi is no longer there.




http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-chi.htm
Quote:

In Asian tradition, chi is the life force which permeates the world. In addition to being in all living beings, chi is also found in spaces such as homes and gardens.




http://www.essortment.com/lifestyle/fengshuitipsw_svsi.htm
Quote:

chi is the energy that flows through the universe. In Taoism, everything is composed of two opposite, yet complimentary energies, called yin and yang. Together these two energies form chi. Chi is a part of everything in the world, both living and non-organic.




http://www.opencollege.info/fengshuicourse.html
Quote:

Chi is an invisible energy that flows in through and around our bodies, including the environment that we live in. Re-arrangement of the interior of our home is said to change our levels of happiness, health and wealth




In my experience, definitions of chi are often in 2 catagories, either an actual existing energy or as a metaphorical energy. Does the IMA forum have a definition for chi?
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416569 - 03/09/09 04:35 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Prizewriter]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Good post, I agree with most all of what you say.

I have a question for you. Do you think that things like tai chi might be used by more people to improve health if it wasn't surrounded with 'mysterious' talk of chi and energies?
For example, might doctors be more inclined to reccommend its use? Would people be less sceptical of it?
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416570 - 03/09/09 04:54 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Barad wrote - Please don't use me to back up your beliefs-I said the Greeks believed this because they apparently did and it was possibly the source of TCM and I made very clear that the ancient Greeks 2.5 thousand years ago were as mistaken as TCM practicioners then and now. Again you confuse reality and belief (they really believed it but it does not make it real!)

456 - I don't need or want YOU for any back up, Who do you think you are? Buddy you are on a open forum if you say something you should have the guts to standby it. Or at least say you don't want me using what you say because you don't like what I stated or who I am. Not that it would change anything this is a open forum and I definitely don't want a connection to you in any way or what you believe. Though you are entitled to what you believe.

Once you write it its yours opinion with no trademarks. I don't care if you take something I post and put it on a billboard I said it and I'll stand by it (if not misquoted). I understand the un written rule, you are not special. You said it SO what?

I didn't confuse anything I added to your supposed idea, that not only did they think it they expressed it by conqureing the world as they knew it with their superior battelfield skills. So facts/belife can be close to reality if you will it or wield it, that portion of the world at that time definetly founded it to be true. Despite what YOU believe.

As for your suggestion of the orgin of all TCMA maybe, maybe not theres no proof just theory. I believe in the limited limb theory which is just as vaild a theory.

Though I respect your opinion I deplore your debate techniques. It doesn't matter there are plenty of other members we can debate with beside each other.

Really I take that last statement back the last part of your ending comment intrigues me, though I may only read your replies and join in if you don't mind. I'm interested in that you can happen upon it but refuse to believe there is a century old study on the topic. But unlike you I won't say don't use my statement because I stand by my words. Is it crazy that massage and the 5 element principles are studied and exploroed? But because they don't fit your reality, you think its CRAZY. You say you been studying for more then 25 years isolated I assume since we both are assuming things. But standby your words, I don't need YOU to back up any thing I believe, you can count on that. I'm MY BACK UP.

In the end you not believing is not going to change what others have experienced. Debate it bc we are on an open forum but it won't change my views.


Prizewriter - I concur good find. Where did some get the idea that Magic was involved????


Creative wrote - For example, might doctors be more inclined to reccommend its use? Would people be less sceptical of it?


456 - There is a crazy theory that Western medicence's Multi Billion dollar industry doesn't want to cure or heal they want to medicate. Kinda Keeps that check rolling in. Note this is not my thoughts it was a Professor that I worked with who wrote software for some of the medical field billing systems. Just a thought Crazy as it may seem to use Barads method cause I don't beleive it, its Crazy, like I know every damn thing. Personally I don't think its that far a stretch.


Edited by Neko456 (03/09/09 05:23 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#416571 - 03/09/09 05:17 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
First off, Prizewriter said:

Quote:

I don't think he is saying "Chi" exists. I think he is offering evidence that what some people call/believe to be "Chi" is actually being studied from a scientific point of view to find out what exactly happens to the body/mind (if anything happens at all) during yoga/qi going et al. In other words, people in the scientific community are trying to debunk "chi" while remaining open to the fact that a lot of these things (e.g. Qi Gong) can have health benefits that can be explained in a rational/scientific way.

That to me is what Ames is saying.





That is what I was trying to get at, and thanks for encapsulating it so well.

Barad

Quote:

I am familiar with the Harvard study you cite-it proves that individuals can assert control over their body temperature using meditation and breathing . This is interesting and surprising, as it is extremely rare and hard to do. However, it says nothing whatsoever about chi despite your assertions but you leap from this to claim it to prove your own supernatural beliefs, which is a bit sly.





I think the problem here is that you are working with second or thrid hand information regarding the 'internal' aspect of these systems.

'Chi' in Japan in known as 'ki', and one art that makes use of 'ki' is Aikido. In his book "Shugyo", Gozo Shioda states (I paraphrase) that the Yoshinkan calls ki 'kokyo'. Kokyo means breath, or breath power, and many techniques in Aikido and IMA in general rely on breath power. In Yoga, the word 'prajna' is often translated as 'energy', but a more exact translation is simply 'breath'.

Quote:

This has what to do with Chi? You seem to want to widen Chi to mean whatever practice you feel like. Getting offended on behalf of some monks is just a diversion...





The use of ki, chi, prajna in physical systems is related to, and dependent on breath control, and mental focus/intent.

Meditation often makes use of this same 'power.' For example, in Zen you are instructed to breath from your Hara, while in Tibetan Buddhism, one breaths from their lower abdomen, but also 'through' a variety of systems of the body. In some Yogic mediation methods (such as Kundalini) one attempts to move the breath through the body, up through the 'chakras', and eventually into the chakra of the forehead. From my research, gTummo is similar. So you can call it breath, or you can call it 'energy', but in the end, it means either one. So attemtpting to reduce this to a 'well that's just breath and meditation, and has nothing to to with chi', totally misses the essence, as both the a 'meditating' (focused) mind, and breath power is neccesary in all these systems, including those that you reduce to the overly simplified "meditation".

I thought I would help clarify all that for you.


creative:

Quote:

Do you think that things like tai chi might be used by more people to improve health if it wasn't surrounded with 'mysterious' talk of chi and energies?





In my experiance, people who know this stuff well, can explain it in terms that make sense. The problem is that there often aren't Western equivlents for what is being explained (hence that Harvard scientist having to come up with his own term for this stuff) so the terms and definitions, even translations can be quite different.

The main thing with this topic is to seperate the charlatans from those who are actually skilled (a difficult thing to do).

Also, if one were to write off the 'mysterious talk of energies' they would miss the entire point of what they are doing. What they should be doing is endeavoring to form these concepts into working definitions so that they can understand what they are doing better. Recently, a lot of good work has been done towards the goal of restating these concepts in Western terms. The thing is, in the end, it's still the same thing, just a different name.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416572 - 03/10/09 05:50 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Buddy you are on a open forum if you say something you should have the guts to standby it."

Sorry Neko, you selectively quoted me to misrepresent that I believed in the Greek medical concepts that may have preceded TCM. I stand by what I said that the Greeks themselves believed this (why would I not?) but not how you tried to twist it to support your own view that the Greeks' view was actually correct.

The rest of your post seems to be you letting off steam-have fun with that. Maybe some kata would help you relax? You still buy into an unsubstantiated fantasy about mythical energy that somehow cannot be identified or proven in any way but you still believe in it totally. As you know, I find that totally stupid. Anything you have done or experienced is entirely explainable by physics, however strange or incredible it seems to you.

Since you want to get personal, your own "debating style" seems to rely on angrily rejecting any logical questioning of your perspective and repeating how strongly you believe in fairy tales about Chi/ki, as if getting angry and ever more strident in your beliefs makes them any less stupid or in any way correct. It does not.


Edited by Barad (03/10/09 06:05 AM)

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#416573 - 03/10/09 05:59 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"In other words, people in the scientific community are trying to debunk "chi" while remaining open to the fact that a lot of these things (e.g. Qi Gong) can have health benefits that can be explained in a rational/scientific way."

If that is actually your point of view, then I agree with it. Some of these practices are beneficial for reasons that can be explained by medical science, including placebo effect, amongst other things. However it means that the TCM explanations for certain things reliant on a mystery, undetectable energy, Chi, are false. This is implied in your quote above, as it talks about a rational explanation, as opposed to the irrationality of undetectable energy fields.

"you can call it breath, or you can call it 'energy', but in the end, it means either one."

No you cannot. As I said yesterday, you are simply conveniently using Chi/ki to mean whatever you want it to mean, to suit your perspective.

Try this definition: "Energy is the capacity of a physical system to perform work. Energy exists in several forms such as heat, kinetic or mechanical energy, light, potential energy, electrical, or other forms." How can breath be considered energy by this? All energy is identifiable and measurable-when you can identify and measure chi and demonstrate the physical capacity of chi to perform work, I will be on the way to being convinced.


Edited by Barad (03/10/09 06:03 AM)

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#416574 - 03/10/09 10:56 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

"Buddy you are on a open forum if you say something you should have the guts to standby it."

Sorry Neko, you selectively quoted me to misrepresent that I believed in the Greek medical concepts that may have preceded TCM. I stand by what I said that the Greeks themselves believed this (why would I not?) but not how you tried to twist it to support your own view that the Greeks' view was actually correct.

The rest of your post seems to be you letting off steam-have fun with that. Maybe some kata would help you relax? You still buy into an unsubstantiated fantasy about mythical energy that somehow cannot be identified or proven in any way but you still believe in it totally. As you know, I find that totally stupid. Anything you have done or experienced is entirely explainable by physics, however strange or incredible it seems to you.

Since you want to get personal, your own "debating style" seems to rely on angrily rejecting any logical questioning of your perspective and repeating how strongly you believe in fairy tales about Chi/ki, as if getting angry and ever more strident in your beliefs makes them any less stupid or in any way correct. It does not.




Barad Your Exact quote - Sorry but this is HS from beginning to end. You start from the position that chi is real, rather than a historical TCM explanation based on virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy, itself probably inherited from the ancient Greeks, who had similar beliefs about the balance of humors regulating health. Chi has been extensively investigated scientifically and found completely unproved, for which read non-existent.

My statement - Barad stated that the anicent Greeks believed in ...

Nowhere is it twisted that you are saying that YOU believe in what I'm saying or what the Greeks thought only that they believed also in a Chi like healing energy. I only brought out the effectiveness of their belief and how it rewrote history. So your dis-belief is not as valid as History is what I meant. Anyone following this thread KNOWs that we disagree on this topic. But as you can tell you seem to battling on both sides but there are just as many peopel that belief are different then yours and mines then they are like you or I. Such is the reality of man as in a color unless you use a adjective as in Absolute Reality its like the color Blue many shades.

I don't like being discredited either I mean to think that I'd need YOU to back up anything that I said. That did rub me the wrong way, I apologoze to all for that lack control.

I wasn't angry nor am I making it personal I just don't like your debate style and closed minded views. But as I constantly stated in this debate you are entitled to them without being called stupid or crazy.

As for you thinking I believe in some magical mystic energy I think this is were the rub starts, in almost all my replies I say its not mystic it is part of the human make up part of how the Universe is formed. I believe it can be measured by bio-chemistry.

One extrem example are the Yoga exponents that can be submerged under water in a clear cubic for 30 minutes ro more. Good swimmers normally can only hold there breath for 4-9 minutes this is an example of MBS control. Nothing magical its just training.

If any bodies twisting what been said its You, I don't believe in magic though I know it exist and I don't beleive its stupid or crazy just because I don't believe in it or want to waste my time understanding. It is real to some people. Just not me.

Bottom line you can't prove that Chi healing doesn't exist over the internet no more then I can prove it does.
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