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#416545 - 03/04/09 12:43 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"If you don't know you don't need to know, right now. Its sorta a need to know type thing that has worked for centuries. If you are closed mind to to it telling you how it works or what it is will only cause a debate."

Neko, patronise all you like. It only makes me think that you believe in some of this hokum like you might believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Alternatively, if you can actually explain what "imbalances" kata can sort out or what illnesses it can treat, then tell me. I am pretty over-educated and I might just understand.

I am not interested in argument for the sake of it but if you all just want to agree that kata smooths your "imbalances" or cures cancer or HIV or whatever with everyone too credulous to question this, then the whole thread seems a bit pointless.

FWIW I have never seen any evidence whatsoever of any healing benefits from kata practice. This is entirely distinct from the benefits of exercise (cardiovascular health, strength-building for example) and balance which could be obtained from most sporting and physical leisure activities.

If I am wrong, then show me some empirical evidence for the healing power of kata instead of just asserting it as if that was proof in itself.

B.

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#416546 - 03/04/09 02:25 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
The reason I started this thread was due to Karate's Chinese Influence. Shaolin Monks practiced Qi Gong sets in order to help heal themselves after training.

I suffered from concussion (post concussion syndrome) last year for about 6 weeks after banging my head really hard.

I would get terrible headaches, mental fuzziness, dizziness and nauesa at various times. During a severe headache, I did a 13 step Wu Taiji form. This form emphazied strong posture and upright stance, and movement while maintaining this stance. I can honestly say this helped with my symptons beyond belief. Before I finished the set my headache had gone.

My own belief from my limited know how and experience is that the postural changes that were brought about (particularly to my spine) are what helped relieve my PCS. Nothing magical, just relaxed, focused movement of Taiji.

A person could say that perhaps it was psychological i.e. I became better because I was doing something which I thought was "good for me" and would make me better. I don't buy that though. I did other things that benefited me (e.g. ate lots of fruit and veg while suffering from PCS) which I beleived to be good for me, but they didn't help relieve the symptons.

When I went to 2 different doctors with my PCS, they both gave me painkillers and told me it would clear up in several months. That is what going to the doctor got me.

I am not saying a person shouldn't consult a qualified doctor if they are unwell, but I also beleive that the body takes care of itself rather well and works wonderfully when we let it. Doing excercise (be it Yoga, Taijiquan, Pilates or kata) that helps stretch the body, correct posture, promotes good circulation, good nervous system function and doesn't put undue stress on the body is going to be helpful.

There was a recent study that put people with lower back problems in to 3 groups. One group were a self help book to deal with back pain, one group were given a set of movement excercises to do, and the final group were given yoga instruction. The yoga group reported the most improvement with symptons overall:

http://www.revolutionhealth.com/healthy-living/natural-health/healing/yoga/back-pain

If doing something like Yoga, Pilates, Taiji or Kata can help you treat minor symptons (such as headaches or back pain) instead of medication, then I think that is something worth keeping an open mind about and trying out.

P.S. By imbalances I meant literal physical imbalances in a persons posture/body i.e. having bad posture and all the problems it can lead to. Not sure what others meant.
_________________________
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#416547 - 03/04/09 04:54 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Prizewriter]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
It's seems to be a pattern from beginner to Master that the healing and destroying process of the Neija Martial arts are one.

The merdians and points to concentrate on are rubbed or struck in reverse in order to heal or destroy also breathing enhances these effects. This is a discipline that is part of Africa, Phillopiness and Indo-Asian arts as well Eastern Asian in my studies the 5 element principles have different names but the near same applications and principles.

Goju/Naha-Te from the 1st 6 month on you hear and train aspect of Ki/Chi developement channeling it and harvesting it to heal or destroy. This is started in the simple KATA of Sanchin the Naha-Te student is told that this is a Kata that he will practice throughtout kyu level well into his Dan ranking in this art, its purpose is to open the door to Iron shrit training. Most Naha-Te exponent go on to study Hsing-I/Bagua, Tachi Chaun, Yoga, or Silat to further harnashes and control this energy. As in the Goju Soke Miyagi in his study of Pakua and Tachi and his Student Toguchi a Yoga practictioner. I'm sure others followed a similar study but I know these two and many people that I've trained and studied with. In Naha-Te warm up exercise the toes and ankle are limbered up, lots of points on the foot.

I personally use the Tensho and Sanchin for stress relife. Also external muscular, tendon and internal organ strengthening. I know that I can deliever and with stand a heavier blow to the body if I breath during it. It is said that Breath is Life in the Internal arts of Neija, in this concept you see Float, Swallow, Spit, Sink theroy and the Iron Cotton concept all seen and started as part of Naha-Te training. Now I added this to show it is a need to know principle if you don't know you don't know. You are not there yet. It doesn't mean or is not a mark against you as a Martial art, I have BB students that don't gather it value, as I tell them there is nothing wrong with Blunt Trama it been working since the Cain and Able.

I haven't Mastered it but I know it's there I have felt it and delievered it but I haven't Mastered neither aspect of it. I beleive this training has help me avoid a stroke, stress of anixety, depression and high blood pressure because I can control my body through concentration and breathing. Somethings are not solid or for all to see because they don't want to, but like the wind you don't have to know where it comes from, to know that it can be powerful.

I know alot of words that don't mean nothing if you don't believe, it all starts with a Question and the Mind researches it. There is really something to the quote that "The Mind is the Warrior's strongest weapon".


Edited by Neko456 (03/04/09 04:57 PM)
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#416548 - 03/05/09 08:54 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
For me, I used to enjoy doing kata before training as a kind of physical warm up, getting the blood flowing and stretching out muscles etc. I also enjoyed it as it mentally got me ready for training, i.e. I could concentrate on the movements and also forget my day at work.
Also after class I would sometimes use kata in a similar kind of way, as a wind down. To bring breathing under control, again light stretches and relaxing movements.

In this respect I could see how kata could be used to prevent injuries through warming up and cooling down.

As a method of healing. When coming back from an injury I could see kata being a very useful tool. One can regulate the intensity of the exercise whilst performing functional movements, i.e. kicks and punches etc. As an injury gets better so you can raise intensity and to some extent resistance by using deeper stances.

As for being used as a tool for improving muscular balance, I'm not sure it is all that useful. many kata do favour a particular side. But as prizewriter said, no where near to the extent that sparring bias' a certain side.

Neko said:
Quote:

I personally use the Tensho and Sanchin for stress relife.




I can easily see how this would be the case and ofcourse is benifical to health.


Quote:

Also external muscular, tendon and internal organ strengthening.




Could you explain internal organ strengthening to me please.


Quote:

I beleive this training has help me avoid a stroke, stress of anixety, depression and high blood pressure




I think care should be taken when making specific claims like 'avoiding a stroke'. Does kata training result in the above? I don't think so specifically. I think you could be broader and say exercise reduces the above.

Quote:

Somethings are not solid or for all to see because they don't want to, but like the wind you don't have to know where it comes from, to know that it can be powerful.




I guess you are talking about ki/chi. I don't know if the thread starter wanted to go down this route.
That you can't see ki because you don't want to does not make sense. if you don't want to feel the wind, do you not feel it? If you don't belive in electric and put your fingers in the plug do you not get a shock?
(Appologies if i've got the wrong end of the stick here!?)
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416549 - 03/05/09 09:29 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I think Prizewriter's answer is very good. It describes well what I believe to be the healing benefits of kata or qigong.

If I am medically sick, I go to a doctor. If I am sick of being sick or feel subjectively "out of balance" whatever that may mean, I may do qigong especially if I can do it outside in the sunshine. It isn't the cancer cure but it might make the cancer cure more barable on the days when one has nausea and fatigue. I know other people ascribe more healing ability to it and that is fine. This is the kind of help I personally get from it. I know that this is one reason why kata practice will stay with me as I get older. I find it makes me feel better.

I do not know of any objective tests regarding qigong and healing. Some things are deductive and some things are experiencial or inductive. I suppose you could make up a scale like a Leikert scale with 5 points and have people with chronic illnesses rate subjectively how they feel after a Tai Chi class vs a group with chronic illness who attend a lecture about gentle stretching exercises or something but I really don't care that much. It works for me. If someone else wants to do the research, I'd be pleased to read it.
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#416550 - 03/05/09 11:21 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Creative wrote - Could you explain internal organ strengthening to me please.

456 - Without going into too much details by strengthening the body you strengthen the kidneys, heart, lungs and Brain, the more Oxygen the better these organ work. Recent Western science has produce what is called a Hyperbaric Chamber were the person is surrounded by Oxygen to enhance healing of wounds that are hard to heal. With breathing and mentally forcing the Ki/Chi to these different internal organs even the skin you strengthen them and heal the body. It's believed. All this is part of Iron Body training and Yoga. So you see Breath is Life.

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------
456 quote - I beleive this training has help me avoid a stroke, stress of anixety, depression and high blood pressure.

----------------------------------------------------------

Creative wrote - I think care should be taken when making specific claims like 'avoiding a stroke'. Does kata training result in the above? I don't think so specifically. I think you could be broader and say exercise reduces the above.

456 - I agree each person testimony is different but when you massage different parts of your body and the symptoms go away then it works for you. Should I lie and saying it didn't even when It's works numerous times. When you feel pressure build up due to multiple stressful moments and you use Ten Sho like breathing and relax thought and the stress and anixety goes away these are personel testimonies, other may have stroked out and no I wouldn't say this is for everybody no more then I would asked a noivce to handle live weapons like Kama and chain. It is a taught technic that one must be trained to use and believe in or it can be dangerous to the user.

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------

456 - Somethings are not solid or for all to see because they don't want to, but like the wind you don't have to know where it comes from, to know that it can be powerful.
------------------------------------------------------------

Creative - I guess you are talking about ki/chi. I don't know if the thread starter wanted to go down this route.
That you can't see ki because you don't want to does not make sense. if you don't want to feel the wind, do you not feel it? If you don't belive in electric and put your fingers in the plug do you not get a shock?
(Appologies if i've got the wrong end of the stick here!?)

456 - There is no wrong end of the stick what you believe is your reality and so we have this discussion. Really I was talking about the wind and its different forms and how our reality is what we believe. You are right I was parrelling the Wind to Chi, but not to electrity which there is no mystery in how it works giving your example. Weather the poster wanted to add Ki/Chi development into this conversation are not they are inseparable when discussing the connection of massage Chi channeling,healing and even destroying. As for posture imbalances notice the posuture of Sanchin or Ten Sho KATA or the Qi Gong exercises the body structure is aligned and rooted.


456 - Another testimony I visited a fellow Practionters dojo early one mourning to discuss joining our class to enhance training as we often did. That mourning an elderly couple was waiting the husband explained that Their WESTERN DOCTOR had given the wife 3-4 months to live, they decided to seek other help, they started coming to Sensei Anuibus through massage, herbal ointments and treatment her mobility and life force had improved. And she has lived 2 years past the Western Doctors diagnostic, the husband stated he was enjoying every minute of it. I only wish I was that good, I can only heal myself for right now.


Edited by Neko456 (03/05/09 11:33 AM)
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#416551 - 03/05/09 04:19 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

As for posture imbalances notice the posuture of Sanchin or Ten Sho KATA or the Qi Gong exercises the body structure is aligned and rooted.





Right, I agree with Neko on this.

Further, from what I understand, any correction in 'muscle imbalances', is a direct result of maintaining this alignment and building the fascial connections (or 'body connection' as some imaist's call it).

Gavin actually recently posted a nice article about this often overlooked structure of the body here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...70#Post15986850

--Chris
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416552 - 03/06/09 05:00 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: underdog]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I think Prizewriter's answer is very good. It describes well what I believe to be the healing benefits of kata or qigong.




I'm pretty ignorant on the healing aspects of kata, so I'll go along as I believe prize to be a levelheaded guy.

Quote:

If I am medically sick, I go to a doctor.




I agree and I didn't see anyone imply that kata is better than western medicine or a replacement for it.

Quote:

If I am sick of being sick or feel subjectively "out of balance" whatever that may mean, I may do qigong especially if I can do it outside in the sunshine. It isn't the cancer cure but it might make the cancer cure more barable on the days when one has nausea and fatigue.




I have to disagree with this. As a former cancer patient NOTHING would make the nausea,fatigue or imbalance effects of chemotherapy in high doses disappear. The chemo kills cells and damages your inner ear among many other things. This is what threw off my balance, caused fatigue, etc. The nausea was just another side effect. After 8 different nausea prescriptions I just gave up and dealt with it.

Quote:

I know other people ascribe more healing ability to it and that is fine. This is the kind of help I personally get from it. I know that this is one reason why kata practice will stay with me as I get older. I find it makes me feel better.




I have found that it makes me feel better as well and that's just one reason why I continue kata practice. I have had days where I was drained and just felt frumpy until doing kata and feeling reenergized.

"To each their own", is a great way of looking at kata practice and its' benefits. Everything else is just subjective hogwash.



Quote:

I do not know of any objective tests regarding qigong and healing. Some things are deductive and some things are experiencial or inductive. I suppose you could make up a scale like a Leikert scale with 5 points and have people with chronic illnesses rate subjectively how they feel after a Tai Chi class vs a group with chronic illness who attend a lecture about gentle stretching exercises or something but I really don't care that much. It works for me. If someone else wants to do the research, I'd be pleased to read it.




That would be interesting!
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#416553 - 03/06/09 05:56 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Thanks for your reply Neko,

Quote:

Without going into too much details by strengthening the body you strengthen the kidneys, heart, lungs and Brain....




I can agree with here in that kata, as a form of exercise, can improve your overall health and well being.

Quote:

With breathing and mentally forcing the Ki/Chi to these different internal organs even the skin you strengthen them and heal the body. It's believed. All this is part of Iron Body training and Yoga. So you see Breath is Life.




This doesn't mean a lot to me. If you are saying that to heal after bruise for example, that the area will need to be supplied with blood (after a period of reduced blood flow to reduce swelling by ice) then I would agree with you. I don't think this is what you are saying and can't agree about 'mentally forcing energy to organs'.

Quote:

I agree each person testimony is different but when you massage different parts of your body and the symptoms go away then it works for you.




This is the most important factor. If it works for you then that is great. Keep doing it. It is interesting talking about the mechanics behind the 'how'.

Quote:

When you feel pressure build up due to multiple stressful moments and you use Ten Sho like breathing and relax thought and the stress and anixety goes away these are personel testimonies, other may have stroked out




I don't think that you not having a stroke is evidence that doing kata prevents strokes. Am I misuderstanding what you are saying?

Quote:

You are right I was parrelling the Wind to Chi, but not to electrity which there is no mystery in how it works giving your example.




Is there mystery to how wind works?

Quote:

As for posture imbalances notice the posuture of Sanchin or Ten Sho KATA or the Qi Gong exercises the body structure is aligned and rooted.




Good point. Here I can easily agree with you lol.


Quote:

Another testimony....




Testimonies like these don't really carry much evidence and it is easy too look for what agrees with ones own thought and disregard what does not. Everyone does it, by nature.

I have an elderly relative, in their late 80's who practices Tai chi every day and lives happily. Similarly a friend who out lived doctors life expectancy by years, who practiced tai chi regularly. Sound good for tai chi? What if I said I lied and where i wrote tai chi should have said 'smoked 20 cigarettes'. both true examples btw. Just making a point.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416554 - 03/06/09 11:25 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Creative wrote - Testimonies like these don't really carry much evidence and it is easy too look for what agrees with ones own thought and disregard what does not. Everyone does it, by nature.

I have an elderly relative, in their late 80's who practices Tai chi every day and lives happily. Similarly a friend who out lived doctors life expectancy by years, who practiced tai chi regularly. Sound good for tai chi? What if I said I lied and where i wrote tai chi should have said 'smoked 20 cigarettes'. both true examples.
=======================================================
456 - As I stated every bodies testimony is different, in deed there are 80-90-100 year old smokers but on average this not the case a person that lives a fit life usually lives longer. Bottom line if you were a gambling man which would you wager on.

But then again there are numerous cases where medical Doctors either couldn't or would not take time to cure a patince and Accupunture or herbal medicine helped cure them. This is a healing method that been done for centuries. Like you if I have muscular, bone or obvious internal injuries I go to a Western Doctor. But they don't know everything and I've personally experienced cases if you have Insurance they try to pad there books and keep you as long as they can as a paying customer. Again I then have to finsih things myself.

As in any discussion we will hardly ever totally agree on all topics but it is good to debate these issues and lay our cards out on the table.

I think our mission in such discussion shouldn't be to convince one another just to bring forth our finding and understanding based on our own reality.

Good discussion I'm standing by.


Edited by Neko456 (03/06/09 11:29 AM)
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