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#416575 - 03/10/09 10:58 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
By that definition can thought be considered energy or is thought, that directs energy?
_________________________
www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#416576 - 03/10/09 11:08 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Bottom line you can't prove that Chi healing doesn't exist over the internet no more then I can prove it does."

Sorry Neko but I do not have to prove anything. Unlike you, I am making no claims that might strike anyone as outlandish or against the laws of physics or other branches of science (eg medical science). You specifically make claims that kata and undetectable ki can heal illnesses, on the face of it a big thing to claim without any verifiable, scientific support. So it is for you to prove your claims, surely, not for me to prove a negative. If you cannot prove them as true, then how can you logically make them or believe in them?

B.

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#416577 - 03/10/09 11:12 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: oldman]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Quote:

By that definition can thought be considered energy or is thought, that directs energy?




Thoughts have been identified, measured and recorded as electrical impulses in the brain and their direct effect on parts of the body demonstrated so I think the answer is quite possibly, if you see them as manifestations of electrical energy. I guess you would have to ask a neuro surgeon...

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#416578 - 03/10/09 11:48 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Chhers for the reply, Chris:
Quote:

In my experiance, people who know this stuff well, can explain it in terms that make sense. The problem is that there often aren't Western equivlents for what is being explained (hence that Harvard scientist having to come up with his own term for this stuff) so the terms and definitions, even translations can be quite different.




I have never heard it explained well. It has always been a simular, vauge explaination. That there is no western translation does not account as to why it can not be explained. The concepts of zen, mushin etc which have no direct translation have been understood without too much difficulty i think.
Also there are scientists in China too!!! Surely Chinese scientist can understand? And as far as I know chi energy has still not been measured.

Quote:

The main thing with this topic is to seperate the charlatans from those who are actually skilled (a difficult thing to do).




If we can't even begin to understand what chi is, how can we spot a charlatan from a genuine?

Quote:

Also, if one were to write off the 'mysterious talk of energies' they would miss the entire point of what they are doing.




From a health perspective, they could still improve posture and get exercise in a fun environment, which for most is a massive step towards good health.

Neko:
Quote:

...Yoga exponents that can be submerged under water in a clear cubic for 30 minutes ro more.




Is this true? Are there any online links to this?

Quote:

I don't believe in magic though I know it exist




Could you clarify, does magic exist? Genuinly couldn't quite understand this paragraph. Cheers.

Quote:

Bottom line you can't prove that Chi healing doesn't exist over the internet no more then I can prove it does.




It is impossible to prove that it does not happen. Agreed. You could lend evidence to proving it does exist though. You mentioned in a post it can be measured through biochemistry?

Scenario:
1000 people doing tai chi. Both belive that in doing tai chi they will greatly improve their own health.
500 believes their health will improve as they are improving their chi, allowing a good flow and improving energy through breathing from the hara.
The other 500 believes their health will improve as they are improving their posture, improving general fitness and learning to breath to relax.
Same physical movements different belief. Would any of you expect one group to see a greater improvement in health, and why.


Edited by creative (03/10/09 11:49 AM)
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416579 - 03/10/09 12:46 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"I don't believe in magic though I know it exist."

If you don't believe it, how can you then still "know magic exists" and why? This sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

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#416580 - 03/10/09 01:04 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

There is also a relatively recent video of medical doctors and physicists in the US wiring up so-called Chi Masters to test for any unusual energy when they claimed to be projecting chi.




How from that do you get that that proves 'chi' doesn't exist? All that proves is that those specific modalities may not be viable. That's it. There are other studies which DO show that modalities that work with the energy field to work. See below.


Quote:

Some of these practices are beneficial for reasons that can be explained by medical science, including placebo effect, amongst other things.




Some can be explained via placebo effect, others cannot. One major example being acupuncture. The World Health Organization in 2003 did a major study on acupuncture, including controlling for the placebo effect (by having some respondents having 'sham acupuncture' done to them). The findings were that acupuncture DOES indeed work for certain conditions, such as:

Adverse reactions to radiotherapy and/or chemotherapy
Allergic rhinitis (including hay fever)
Biliary colic
Depression (including depressive neurosis and depression following stroke)
Dysentery, acute bacillary
Dysmenorrhoea, primary
Epigastralgia, acute (in peptic ulcer, acute and chronic gastritis, and gastrospasm)
Facial pain (including craniomandibular disorders)
Headache
Hypertension, essential
Hypotension, primary
Induction of labour
Knee pain
Leukopenia
Low back pain
Malposition of fetus, correction of
Morning sickness
Nausea and vomiting
Neck pain
Pain in dentistry (including dental pain and temporomandibular dysfunction)
Periarthritis of shoulder
Postoperative pain
Renal colic
Rheumatoid arthritis
Sciatica
Sprain
Stroke
Tennis elbow

You can read more about this study here,if you like:

http://www.acupuncture-schools.us/national-institute-health-nih-acupuncture.cfm

So acupuncture works for certain things, but why? Barad, I would genuinely like you to provide a reason, as many scientist's are currently trying to figure it out. In other words, we can dissmiss 'chi' (as in the energetic field) all we like, but the fact remains that science itself CURRENTLY HAS NO TERMS TO EXPLAIN what is happening here. Think about the implications of that for awhile.

Does this mean we should just blindly accept everything written about 'chi'. No, I don't think so. I think that we should remain skeptical, but open minded, until futher research is conducted. The thing I find so disheartening about all this is how quick folks are to say "that is just the placebo effect", when it is not, and how quick they are to arrogantly make statements that TCM comes from "virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy", when many of the major methods of healing can be verified to work! Yes, TCM had total ignorance for WESTERN concepts of physiology and anatomy, but just as Western medicine has been ignornant regarding Eastern concepts of the body/mind.

Quote:

However it means that the TCM explanations for certain things reliant on a mystery, undetectable energy, Chi, are false.




I beleive I answered this above, but let me be clear that it absolutely does not mean that. It will only mean that when science can describe what is going on in these cases based on their current model and concept of the body (which they can't). What is gradually occuring is a major paradigm shift, not only in how the body is perceived, but also the mind (as I said regarding mindfullness practices being used succesfully to treat psychological conditions).

So what bothers me somewhat about your posts is your reductionary stance towards all of these things. You asked for evidence, and it has clearly been provided. Again, not that that evidence proves (or for the matter disproves) that chi exists, but that many of the modalities that are designed to specifically treat that energetic field DO WORK.

Yet you keep writting it off, either based on semantics ("that's not chi, its breath" even though I took pains to explain to you that you are creating a false dicotomy between the two).

Quote:

No you cannot. As I said yesterday, you are simply conveniently using Chi/ki to mean whatever you want it to mean, to suit your perspective.





No, I'm not. Yesterday I set out how all these things are interelated, now how about you speak to the actual thrust of my post, rather than parroting what you said yesterday.

Quote:

How can breath be considered energy by this?




Breath provides the fuel for the human system to function. As that Harvard study has shown breath directly relates to the health of the body's systems (which do have an electrical current btw). The heart in particular conducts electricity throughout the entire organism, and many of these methods (call it gTummo or qigong) have been shown to positively benefit the heart in ways the exercises such as running or weight lifting do not. Let's look again at what that Harvard study found gTummo to cheifly benefit:

Quote:

metabolism, breathing rate, heart rate, and blood pressure




So, if what you are looking for is mere proof that these systems do effect the energy (or electricity) of the human body (and mind), there you have it. Now, does this effect heal...the answer seems to be yes, again, here are some of the things that are positively effected:

Quote:

Benson and colleagues use it to treat anxiety, mild and moderate depression, high blood pressure, heartbeat irregularities, excessive anger, insomnia, and even infertility.




So let me lay it out in very simple terms. Qigong (let's call it that, though it is called different things because different cultures do have different languages after all), engenders what Dr.Benson calls the "relaxation response." This relaxation response primarily effects the bodies heart and cardiovascular system (the body's energy system). Due to this (the more efficient working of energy systems such as metabolism and heart) the body is able to heal itself from certain illnesses.

Further, those few who really work with these systems are able to do some fairly weird things that should kill them (such as bringing their core temperature up to what most consider a dangerous level).

--Chris



Edited by Ames (03/10/09 01:05 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416581 - 03/10/09 01:58 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Ames said
Quote:

Some can be explained via placebo effect, others cannot. One major example being acupuncture. The World Health Organization in 2003 did a major study on acupuncture, including controlling for the placebo effect (by having some respondents having 'sham acupuncture' done to them).




Just had a quick look at the WHO review of accupuncture and under section 1.7 - Selection of clinical trial reports it states:

Quote:

On the other hand, negative results from such trials, in which both the genuine and sham acupuncture showed considerable therapeutic effects with no significant difference between them, can hardly be taken as evidence negating the effectiveness of acupuncture. In the latter case, especially in treatment of pain, most authors could only draw the conclusion that additional control studies were needed. Therefore, these reports are generally not included in this review.




Interesting findings here. I like the final pargraph:

http://www.badscience.net/2007/09/542/
Quote:

There is a fascinating irony here. While the flaky humanities graduate commentators in the media bang on about “scientism” and accuse doctors and scientists of being “reductionist”, while CAM therapists bang on about doctors being in the pocket of big pharma, and praise themselves for being “holistic” and “lifestyle oriented”… doctors seem to be the ones actually dishing out basic, sensible, evidence based non-technical lifestyle advice, and people are strangely resistant to hearing it.




This site also says a lot about the placebo effect.

Interesting though that the science/medical community does recognise these things even if the mechanisms at work are not fully understood. I believe you can get accupuncture and homeopathy on the NHS even though they are considered by most professionals to be placebo effects. People under estimate the power of placebo.


Edited by creative (03/10/09 02:03 PM)

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#416582 - 03/10/09 03:20 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

People under estimate the power of placebo.





I agree. But people also tend to catagorize anything outside of mainstream medicine as being a 'placebo' effect. Yet science still has difficultly figuring out exactly what is going on in these cases. How can a sugar pill work as well as an anti-depressent? How can a sham surgery work, in some cases, as well as a proper one? It is not only alternative practices that involve the placebo effect, but mainstream ones as well.

Quote:

Some believe the placebo effect is purely psychological. Irving Kirsch, a psychologist at the University of Connecticut, believes that the effectiveness of Prozac and similar drugs may be attributed almost entirely to the placebo effect. He and Guy Sapirstein analyzed 19 clinical trials of antidepressants and concluded that the expectation of improvement, not adjustments in brain chemistry, accounted for 75 percent of the drugs' effectiveness (Kirsch 1998). "The critical factor," says Kirsch, "is our beliefs about what's going to happen to us. You don't have to rely on drugs to see profound transformation." In an earlier study, Sapirstein analyzed 39 studies, done between 1974 and 1995, of depressed patients treated with drugs, psychotherapy, or a combination of both. He found that 50 percent of the drug effect is due to the placebo response.




In the end, I would like to see more studies on this matter (Eastern healing methods) done before I come to any conclusions--including whether or not the positive outcomes are a placebo effect or not. Certainly, according to the W.H.O. it does not only come down to this.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416583 - 03/10/09 07:37 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

I agree. But people also tend to catagorize anything outside of mainstream medicine as being a 'placebo' effect.




By 'out of mainstream' you tend to be reffering to 'alternative medicines'. As I read somewhere, it is alternative for a reason, it has not passed the rigors that conventional medicine must overcome.
If a truely amazing cure was found by say an accupunturist, I don't think it would be catagoriesed as placebo. Most things that are put in the placebo catagorey are so as that is the most reasonable explanation.

Quote:

Yet science still has difficultly figuring out exactly what is going on in these cases. How can a sugar pill work as well as an anti-depressent? How can a sham surgery work, in some cases, as well as a proper one?




There is a lot of information on placebo and how and why it works, how to increase the effect etc. Lots of the information comes from studying older form of medicine such as accupuncture, witch doctors and shamen.

Quote:

It is not only alternative practices that involve the placebo effect, but mainstream ones as well.




Without doubt. Difference is that mainstream medicines have been shown to work even without placebo.

Quote:

In the end, I would like to see more studies on this matter (Eastern healing methods) done before I come to any conclusions--including whether or not the positive outcomes are a placebo effect or not. Certainly, according to the W.H.O. it does not only come down to this.




The WHO seemed to me to be pretty careful in what they wrote with regard to how much accupuncture might be due to placebo. (IMO)

Have looked up some stuff online. I think this link, if you can be bothered to read it all gives a compelling case from a skeptics POV:

http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416584 - 03/10/09 09:04 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

As I read somewhere, it is alternative for a reason, it has not passed the rigors that conventional medicine must overcome.




In many cases, that is true.


Quote:

If a truely amazing cure was found by say an accupunturist, I don't think it would be catagoriesed as placebo.




Although I don't know about the truly amazing part, I've posted evidence that suggests that this a major body has conducted thorough research, controlling for the placebo effect, and found that there is something to acupuncture.

If I am wrong about that, please post a link to the study.

Quote:

There is a lot of information on placebo and how and why it works, how to increase the effect etc. Lots of the information comes from studying older form of medicine such as accupuncture, witch doctors and shamen.




In one sense, you are right as there are theories as to why it works that are pretty sound. On the other hand, exactly how the body creates a real healing response is still a pretty big question, and it was this aspect that I was speaking too. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

Quote:

Difference is that mainstream medicines have been shown to work even without placebo.




You've lost me here. If studies show that certain mainstream medicines are dependent on the placebo effect (such as anti-depressants) then how is what you've said accurate?

Quote:

The WHO seemed to me to be pretty careful in what they wrote with regard to how much accupuncture might be due to placebo.




Fair enough, but I see it differently, the W.H.O flat out stated that certain acupunture DOES HELP certain conditions (those that I listed).

Quote:

Have looked up some stuff online. I think this link, if you can be bothered to read it all gives a compelling case from a skeptics POV




I read it a lot of that site since you posted it. Some interesting information, some fairly common info, and some that I downright disagree with. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere where he addressed the W.H.O. study, but rather another specifically on back pain.

Anyway, I don't want my playing devil's advocate to be construed as my trying to prove chi or not. The truth is I am not a scientist, or a doctor of TCM. I do think that there seems to be some powerful healing methods at work in some of these ancient Eastern systems, and I don't think it is all related to what we commonly call the 'placebo' effect. So I'm interested in keeping an open mind to it, rather than (like that site does) 'debunking' all these practices because of a few that simply don't do much of anything. Doing so is as idiotic as calling any doctor who prescribes anti-depressants a quack (because they work largely based on the placebo effect).

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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