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#416605 - 03/13/09 05:47 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Chi/Ki can be defined in modern or near scienctfic terms."

Absolute nonsense-chi has never, ever been demonstrated to exist. You can define it all you like (very loosely in most cases to mean whatever you want) but if you mean to say "controlling your breathing", why not say it, instead of resorting to mythological concepts of TCM?

"Burden of proof is not on either party."

Wrong again-if you assert the existence of something, the burden is clearly on you to back up your assertion. You cannot because it does not exist and is therefore not demonstrable under scientfic conditions. If you make an assertion that appears on the face of it supernatural and unrecognised by the laws of physics, then physics does not have to prove you wrong. Physics never made any claims to the existence or otherwise of ki until TCM practicioners/martial artists suggested it. It is they who should therefore prove it or shut up. Sorry Neko, again you understand nothing much about reason or logic.

"Reality is based on what one precieve as real."

This is nonsense, as I have pointed out to you before. See my answer to Ames on the same point. If I erroneously believe that I am a ten foot tall pineapple, it does not make it in any way real. Do you see?

"we will keep doing what has worked and is best for us."

Obviously I agree with this-do what you like. But if you happen to hold crazy, supernatural views (like the unproveable existence of ki) then you can expect them to be disbelieved and ridiculed on occasion.

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#416606 - 03/13/09 10:35 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
456 - "Chi/Ki can be defined in modern or near scientific terms."

Barad - Absolute nonsense-chi has never, ever been demonstrated to exist. You can define it all you like (very loosely in most cases to mean whatever you want) but if you mean to say "controlling your breathing", why not say it, instead of resorting to mythological concepts of TCM?

456 - This is just one of the sceintific examination of Chi. Just as there are theories on Black Holes.

Some think it is "electrical" energy; others believe its "magnetic" type of energy, while some others think it is heat or other type of energy.

But there IS Chi.

I am getting most of my current information from Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. He has some Serious Credentials!
He studied Shaolin White Crane kung-fu, Mastered Tai Chi, and a bunch of other martial arts. He has an M.S. in Physics from the National Taiwan University. He also earned a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering from Purdue. And has his own publishing company with Many books to his name.

Plus I'm working with some practical knowledge I have learned from my Kung-Fu training, and the Masters and advanced students around me.


"According to Chinese medical and Chi Kung society, the Original Jieng which you obtained from your parents stays in your Kidneys after your birth. This Original Jieng is the source of your life and growth. This Original Jieng is converted continuously ito Chi which moves down to the Lower Dan Tien, and stays stored there in its residence for future use. The Dan Tien is located on the Conception Vessel -- one of the 8 Chi "reservoirs" in the body which regulate the Chi flow to other channels.
Dan Tien Chi is considered "Water Chi" "
=========================================================
Barad you argue with this Doctor, just an example of the study of Chi. Open your mind come out of the mist of delusional self riighetousness Barad doesn't know what best for everyone, take your medication.

456 - "Burden of proof is not on either party."

Barad wrote - Wrong again-if you assert the existence of something, the burden is clearly on you to back up your assertion. You cannot because it does not exist and is therefore not demonstrable under scientfic conditions. If you make an assertion that appears on the face of it supernatural and unrecognised by the laws of physics, then physics does not have to prove you wrong. Physics never made any claims to the existence or otherwise of ki until TCM practicioners/martial artists suggested it. It is they who should therefore prove it or shut up. Sorry Neko, again you understand nothing much about reason or logic.

456 - I don't have to prove anything to you just as in life each person must take the journey into the realms of Martial art by themself. What you believe and have experience only have merit to you likewise my experience are different. Though we see things differently I will keep doing what I believe and you will keep call things crazy because you are too ignorant or close minded to understand them, keep left hand boxing there is s higher art. If it works for me its proven, thats my reality.

456 - "Reality is based on what one precieve as real."

Barad wrote - This is nonsense, as I have pointed out to you before. See my answer to Ames on the same point. If I erroneously believe that I am a ten foot tall pineapple, it does not make it in any way real. Do you see?


456 - Before the theory of Realitivty they called Albert crazy these were unproven views. Now the Nuclear energy can be harness for the most common of uses. As in the most powerful weapons or simple-ly just for for heating. Reality is based on what we believe, because it becomes whats real to us. Just as arguing with you and you telling me what I need to believe or prove is a like a probably journey to a Black hole, nothing but darkenss no possibilty of anything to exist that you have not read of. I pity your wife or sufficent other you only see what you want, theres a term for that Psychotic schizophrenic, now who sounds crazy.


456 - "we will keep doing what has worked and is best for us."

Barad - Obviously I agree with this-do what you like. But if you happen to hold crazy, supernatural views (like the unproveable existence of ki) then you can expect them to be disbelieved and ridiculed on occasion.





456 - Again you make believe stating something that I have denied over and over Chi theory is not magicail or supernatural it is natural and nature. I feel you are entitled to your b/w reality. As for ridulcue if that was your intention, You only state your simple minded psychotic schizophrenic opinions, several debaters and I keep telling you that you mis-quote them but you continue to state a diminished or loss of contact with reality, or whats being stated. I will just consider the source.


Edited by Neko456 (03/13/09 10:41 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#416607 - 03/13/09 11:07 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Some think it is "electrical" energy; others believe its "magnetic" type of energy, while some others think it is heat or other type of energy."

Read my old posts-real energy is identifiable and measurable, not least electricity and magnetic energy. Chi is not.

What Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming does is excellent from a martial perspective. I have had some of his books for decades. However as a practicioner of TCM and chi kung, he starts from the position that chi exists and works backwards. You appear to do the same.

"You only state your simple minded psychotic schizophrenic opinions."

Er, if you say so but both of me disagree with you.

I accept that you are totally sold on chi/ki. However from my perspective you are ignorant and hold views that deserve only ridicule. Your abuse and aggressive language is highly amusing-you are evidently overcome by frustration because I do not buy your fairytale BS. Hey, I think I saw some ki behind you, see if you can catch it in your hand...

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#416608 - 03/13/09 11:36 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Hey Neko,
Was wondering if you could use the quote function or at least quotation marks when quoting from outside sources as it is difficult decifer what is you and what is referenced. eg. http://hypography.com/forums/philosophy-and-humanities/6125-chi.html . Cheers.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416609 - 03/13/09 11:40 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Barad - Your abuse and aggressive language is highly amusing-you are evidently overcome by frustration because I do not buy your fairytale BS. Hey, I think I saw some ki behind you, see if you can catch it in your hand... .



456 -- I just consider the source. I do appauld you on your strong Dogmatic belifes, but without medication you are trapped aren't you.

You should be a Lawyer we need one more just like you.

I'm standing by, a pity a mind is a sad thing to waste.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#416610 - 03/13/09 11:47 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
The effects of certain activities eg accupuncture can be debated as there is a clear understanding of what accupuncture is, and we could look at evidence. While we didn't totally agree, we could have a somewhat reasoned debate.

If you want to debate the existance of chi, while it is not on topic, some solid proposals of definitions need to be put forward.

I don't think even the IMA forum has a definition for chi, it certainly isn't a sticky, so it might be difficult!
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416611 - 03/13/09 12:23 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

No, sorry, go back a good few posts and you will find me saying to Neko what I repeat to you. "Real" is an absolute, not a subjective concept. Do you understand the concepts of "real" and "unreal"?




Okay, and what makes something 'real'? This might seem overly semantic, but the abstract concepts of religion are felt strongly enough by the believers to create effects in reality. In other words, to some God may be a 'fantasy', but even so the concept of God has had real effect on the world. I suggest you read William James' 'The Varities of Religious Experiance'. Here is a quote from that work that speaks both of 'absolutes' and 'abstractions' (or as you call it 'fantasy'):

Quote:

This absolute determinability of our mind by abstractions is one of the cardinal facts in our human constitution. Polarizing and magnetizing us as they do, we turn towards them and from them, we seek them, hold them, hate them, bless them, just as if they were so many concrete beings. And beings they are, beings as real in the realm which they inhabit as the changing things of sense are in the realm of space.




Let me give you an example, also from that book. Paul of Tarsus was said to have a vision while walking down the road one day, of Christ. Now many people who consider themselves 'rationalists' dismiss this visionary experiance as just an epiliptic seizure. But, as James points out, it doesn't matter whether it was from epilipsy or not, because that is missing the point. The point is that it was real enough to Paul to create modern Christianity, which has an extremely influential (for better or worse) effect on the world ever since. As James points out, certainly what Paul felt is different from what most people who have an epiliptic seizure feel, because they don't generally tend to radically alter the shape of human history. So Paul's vision of Christ, in this sense, was as 'real' as anything else.

The same goes for believers in chi. When a believer in chi holds the concept to such esteem that it alters the course of his life, and the lives of others, then the concept/abstraction/fantasy DOES have power in reality, can be felt, and thus becomes real.

Quote:

Chi is not real even if you or others think it is real.





I don't think chi is real. I do think the concept of chi is real, and that that concept has real world effect.

Of course, I can see how someone who deals in faulty 'absolutes' couldn't see this. Since you seem to like to announce yourself of a lover of science, I wonder how much you have read about quantum physics on the subject of absolutes? Here is succint statement as to why the notion of absolutes, beyond helping to measure things, is a faulty one:

Quote:

The standard interpretation of quantum physics assumes that the quantum world is characterized by absolute indeterminism and that quantum systems exist objectively only when they are being measured or observed.




Barad, I would think someone as knowlegable in science as you seem to perceive yourself to be(what with your constant arrogant tone) would understand such a basic concept as this.

Good day.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416612 - 03/13/09 01:35 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
giarmyty Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 1
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Kata is a great form of healing and rehab. There are 3 katas I can think of off hand that are great to work on. Nan Dan sho, Ten sho, and Shudi sho , are all breath retention katas that make you use good form, good posture, and gather strength and focus. When run properly can help the student running the kata gain better control on the body which in turn helps with any imbalances. Breath retention is a basic form of meditation. These katas are basic meditation with movement.

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#416613 - 03/13/09 02:45 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: giarmyty]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
ok guys, time out - I am moving to forms section and I would like for you to all keep a little more on topic.

Please avoid the religious references, not relevant and can cause further issues which don't assist the topic.

We can also remember to keep things civil and not insulting to each other, it's close to being locked but lets try and run the topic a little more.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#416614 - 03/13/09 11:43 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Jim: good point. plus what does chi and spiritual beliefs got to do with kata as it relates to claimed healing properties?


to the thread:
I think everyone would agree that moving around each day is healthier than sitting on a couch all day, correct?

so of course kata (which qualifies into the category of 'moving around'), is more beneficial to your health than using that same time to sit on a park bench and smoke cigars.

no one could possibly disagree with that using any reasonable level of common sense. The question then becomes which type of 'moving around' gives the most amount of health benefit.

The only way you could objectively measure something like that is by compairing statistics. anyone have the stats showing that kata or tai chi practitioners live longer and healthier than someone who swims in a pool every day?

If it was definitively shown that swimming for 30 minutes per day has the equal long term health benefit as 2 hours of kata practice a day, would people THEN associate magical healing properties to tredding water? No, they wouldn't. which illustrates the bias of the human psyche thinking 'A' is better than 'B' just because they want it to be true.

it's really a non-argument of biased opinions unless people start bringing credible statistics to the table in these types of threads.

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