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#416535 - 02/28/09 08:15 AM Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery?
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Hello all.

As per usual, I will start by mentioning I am a karate ignoramus. I don't have that much experience with it, though I do have an interest in it.

Cord mentioned something on the Muay Thai/Kickboxing/Boxing forum about yoga being used to help correct imbalances that boxers develop due to the way they stand and move while training.

I noticed something similar in Karate classes when people were sparring/doing kumite.

Now, having also done some Qi Gong too, I was wondering if Kata, be in Japanese or Okinawan (or whatever), was beneficial in helping correct imbalances built up in a karate-ka's body due to sparring?

There is not doubt sparring/kumite can be harmful to a person if they attempt to move at speed while their body is out of synch. I had a friend who did TKD who did terrible damage to his knee trying to kick someone sparring. The doctor told him it was due to the pressure he was putting on the joint by the way he was sparring in TKD.

You guys would know better than me. I'll bet good money though more people inflict self-injuries (that is to say, injuring themselves without their sparring partner/opponent doing it for them) while sparring/doing kumite than people doing kata.

I read an interesting article about a gentleman who said doing Okinawan Karate has helped him with health problems he had, so this got me thinking on the whole issue and Katas relevance to developing good posture and healthy alignment.

I know the theory is that a person should maintain balance and good postural structure during sparring, but that doesn't really happen in my experience. And as I said, people tend to adopt stances were the body is out of synch once sparring/kumite begins.

Thoughts?
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#416536 - 02/28/09 09:14 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Prizewriter]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
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Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
You are basically correct. Both qigong and kata have healing motions to correct imbalances. There is a rather large body of knowledge here and if you were to pursue it, look for titles and teachers teaching qigong.
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#416537 - 03/03/09 12:29 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: underdog]
bo-ken Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I think kata has some healing benefits as well. One of my students had lower back pain for years and I told him to practice is kata more and rest. Now he says he has no pain at all.

Also, kata are great for stress relief. You can practice an entire kata without your mind wondering it's truly an amazing thing.

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#416538 - 03/03/09 12:48 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Prizewriter]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I'd say that the whole training aspect helps guard the body from injuries and imbalances the streching, caleshtic, aerobic and kata. Regular kata done at a slower Tai chi like flow and speed can help strecht joints, tendons and muscles, it can also be a stress reliever. Then you have the Iron shrit katas that once the rountine is recorded you start learning to channel energy as in Qi Gong exercises. So healing and preventive injury can be acomplished, and as any Doctor will tell you relieving stress in paramount bc Stress Kills.
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#416539 - 03/04/09 08:38 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: underdog]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"qigong and kata have healing motions to correct imbalances."

What does this actually mean? Imbalances in what? If I am genuinely sick I will go and see a Western doctor, not perform kata. Such a recommendation is surely ludicrous and potentially dangerous.

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#416540 - 03/04/09 09:00 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
If you don't know you don't need to know, right now. Its sorta a need to know type thing that has worked for centuries. If you are closed mind to to it telling you how it works or what it is will only cause a debate. Go see your western Doctors (they don't know everything), because you don't understand imbalances they can't find a cure then come back and ask after you studied more.

U can't teach Algerbra to 1st graders, when you are ready you will know.

I believe in Western Doctors too, but somethings you don't have to pay for, sometomes just studying and paying attention saves your health and money. Stress Kills Western Doctors know that.

Maybe someone else will explain it to you.
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#416541 - 03/04/09 09:01 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Prizewriter]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I don't see specific healing qualities in karate kata, outside of it being a fairly rounded physical activity.

Look to Tai Chi for this IMO.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#416542 - 03/04/09 09:32 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ironfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
In my admittedly limited exposure to Qi Cong, it looks an awful lot like slow-motion kata to me - with any kime removed.
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#416543 - 03/04/09 09:53 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ironfoot]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I go to Modern Western Medical Doctors for medical care too and by profession, I am a Western trained nurse. Correcting "imbalances" is different. There is a fuzzy area where people look for treatments for chronic difficulties with TCM and some folks are complete believers in TCM but the debate is lame and doesn't belong here. I suggest letting it rest that beliefs run the whole range.

However, speaking to those inclined to use qigong as part of their personal wellness/or contemplative activities, my belief is that kata are also helpful.

For those who find this foolish, please feel free to ignore this thread. No need to argue. To each his own.
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#416544 - 03/04/09 12:27 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: underdog]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Interesting topic, and something I've thought about often. Although I've never really studied Karate, I have seen numerous videos and read several articles on the similarity between certain kata movements and qigong. This is also the same in various Kung Fu styles, most notably White Crane. Seeing as how some Karate styles (like Goju) are said to descend from some form of White Crane, I think it makes sense that there are qigong aspects to Karate as well. Something as basic to Karate as horse stance, is a very powerful qigong movement, used for building body connection.

I do think that these movements were inserted to heal the body from imbalances and injuries that might occur during fighting or sparring. However, it should be noted that to practice the kata as a healing movement, one would have to be taught the basics of intention and leading qi, at least as far as I am concerned.

I also beleive that these movements are there to build a 'soft body' and to strengthen/build what are sometimes called 'internal connection.'

Other arts also have qigong movements 'hidden' within the technique. Many Aikido techniques, for example, are qigong movements. I'll never forget my astonishment when a Chinese qigong teacher had us perform a solo Tenchi Nage (Heaven and Earth Throw). I asked him if this came from Aikido, and he laughed and said he had only heard of Aikido, never seen it.

The main thing here, from my experiance, is to find a teacher who understands this level of the kata/technique, and is willing to teach it. If not, studying qigong from an outside source might be an option, so that you can bring that knowledge into your practice.

--Chris
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--Basho

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#416545 - 03/04/09 12:43 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"If you don't know you don't need to know, right now. Its sorta a need to know type thing that has worked for centuries. If you are closed mind to to it telling you how it works or what it is will only cause a debate."

Neko, patronise all you like. It only makes me think that you believe in some of this hokum like you might believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Alternatively, if you can actually explain what "imbalances" kata can sort out or what illnesses it can treat, then tell me. I am pretty over-educated and I might just understand.

I am not interested in argument for the sake of it but if you all just want to agree that kata smooths your "imbalances" or cures cancer or HIV or whatever with everyone too credulous to question this, then the whole thread seems a bit pointless.

FWIW I have never seen any evidence whatsoever of any healing benefits from kata practice. This is entirely distinct from the benefits of exercise (cardiovascular health, strength-building for example) and balance which could be obtained from most sporting and physical leisure activities.

If I am wrong, then show me some empirical evidence for the healing power of kata instead of just asserting it as if that was proof in itself.

B.

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#416546 - 03/04/09 02:25 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
The reason I started this thread was due to Karate's Chinese Influence. Shaolin Monks practiced Qi Gong sets in order to help heal themselves after training.

I suffered from concussion (post concussion syndrome) last year for about 6 weeks after banging my head really hard.

I would get terrible headaches, mental fuzziness, dizziness and nauesa at various times. During a severe headache, I did a 13 step Wu Taiji form. This form emphazied strong posture and upright stance, and movement while maintaining this stance. I can honestly say this helped with my symptons beyond belief. Before I finished the set my headache had gone.

My own belief from my limited know how and experience is that the postural changes that were brought about (particularly to my spine) are what helped relieve my PCS. Nothing magical, just relaxed, focused movement of Taiji.

A person could say that perhaps it was psychological i.e. I became better because I was doing something which I thought was "good for me" and would make me better. I don't buy that though. I did other things that benefited me (e.g. ate lots of fruit and veg while suffering from PCS) which I beleived to be good for me, but they didn't help relieve the symptons.

When I went to 2 different doctors with my PCS, they both gave me painkillers and told me it would clear up in several months. That is what going to the doctor got me.

I am not saying a person shouldn't consult a qualified doctor if they are unwell, but I also beleive that the body takes care of itself rather well and works wonderfully when we let it. Doing excercise (be it Yoga, Taijiquan, Pilates or kata) that helps stretch the body, correct posture, promotes good circulation, good nervous system function and doesn't put undue stress on the body is going to be helpful.

There was a recent study that put people with lower back problems in to 3 groups. One group were a self help book to deal with back pain, one group were given a set of movement excercises to do, and the final group were given yoga instruction. The yoga group reported the most improvement with symptons overall:

http://www.revolutionhealth.com/healthy-living/natural-health/healing/yoga/back-pain

If doing something like Yoga, Pilates, Taiji or Kata can help you treat minor symptons (such as headaches or back pain) instead of medication, then I think that is something worth keeping an open mind about and trying out.

P.S. By imbalances I meant literal physical imbalances in a persons posture/body i.e. having bad posture and all the problems it can lead to. Not sure what others meant.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#416547 - 03/04/09 04:54 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Prizewriter]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
It's seems to be a pattern from beginner to Master that the healing and destroying process of the Neija Martial arts are one.

The merdians and points to concentrate on are rubbed or struck in reverse in order to heal or destroy also breathing enhances these effects. This is a discipline that is part of Africa, Phillopiness and Indo-Asian arts as well Eastern Asian in my studies the 5 element principles have different names but the near same applications and principles.

Goju/Naha-Te from the 1st 6 month on you hear and train aspect of Ki/Chi developement channeling it and harvesting it to heal or destroy. This is started in the simple KATA of Sanchin the Naha-Te student is told that this is a Kata that he will practice throughtout kyu level well into his Dan ranking in this art, its purpose is to open the door to Iron shrit training. Most Naha-Te exponent go on to study Hsing-I/Bagua, Tachi Chaun, Yoga, or Silat to further harnashes and control this energy. As in the Goju Soke Miyagi in his study of Pakua and Tachi and his Student Toguchi a Yoga practictioner. I'm sure others followed a similar study but I know these two and many people that I've trained and studied with. In Naha-Te warm up exercise the toes and ankle are limbered up, lots of points on the foot.

I personally use the Tensho and Sanchin for stress relife. Also external muscular, tendon and internal organ strengthening. I know that I can deliever and with stand a heavier blow to the body if I breath during it. It is said that Breath is Life in the Internal arts of Neija, in this concept you see Float, Swallow, Spit, Sink theroy and the Iron Cotton concept all seen and started as part of Naha-Te training. Now I added this to show it is a need to know principle if you don't know you don't know. You are not there yet. It doesn't mean or is not a mark against you as a Martial art, I have BB students that don't gather it value, as I tell them there is nothing wrong with Blunt Trama it been working since the Cain and Able.

I haven't Mastered it but I know it's there I have felt it and delievered it but I haven't Mastered neither aspect of it. I beleive this training has help me avoid a stroke, stress of anixety, depression and high blood pressure because I can control my body through concentration and breathing. Somethings are not solid or for all to see because they don't want to, but like the wind you don't have to know where it comes from, to know that it can be powerful.

I know alot of words that don't mean nothing if you don't believe, it all starts with a Question and the Mind researches it. There is really something to the quote that "The Mind is the Warrior's strongest weapon".


Edited by Neko456 (03/04/09 04:57 PM)
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#416548 - 03/05/09 08:54 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
For me, I used to enjoy doing kata before training as a kind of physical warm up, getting the blood flowing and stretching out muscles etc. I also enjoyed it as it mentally got me ready for training, i.e. I could concentrate on the movements and also forget my day at work.
Also after class I would sometimes use kata in a similar kind of way, as a wind down. To bring breathing under control, again light stretches and relaxing movements.

In this respect I could see how kata could be used to prevent injuries through warming up and cooling down.

As a method of healing. When coming back from an injury I could see kata being a very useful tool. One can regulate the intensity of the exercise whilst performing functional movements, i.e. kicks and punches etc. As an injury gets better so you can raise intensity and to some extent resistance by using deeper stances.

As for being used as a tool for improving muscular balance, I'm not sure it is all that useful. many kata do favour a particular side. But as prizewriter said, no where near to the extent that sparring bias' a certain side.

Neko said:
Quote:

I personally use the Tensho and Sanchin for stress relife.




I can easily see how this would be the case and ofcourse is benifical to health.


Quote:

Also external muscular, tendon and internal organ strengthening.




Could you explain internal organ strengthening to me please.


Quote:

I beleive this training has help me avoid a stroke, stress of anixety, depression and high blood pressure




I think care should be taken when making specific claims like 'avoiding a stroke'. Does kata training result in the above? I don't think so specifically. I think you could be broader and say exercise reduces the above.

Quote:

Somethings are not solid or for all to see because they don't want to, but like the wind you don't have to know where it comes from, to know that it can be powerful.




I guess you are talking about ki/chi. I don't know if the thread starter wanted to go down this route.
That you can't see ki because you don't want to does not make sense. if you don't want to feel the wind, do you not feel it? If you don't belive in electric and put your fingers in the plug do you not get a shock?
(Appologies if i've got the wrong end of the stick here!?)
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#416549 - 03/05/09 09:29 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I think Prizewriter's answer is very good. It describes well what I believe to be the healing benefits of kata or qigong.

If I am medically sick, I go to a doctor. If I am sick of being sick or feel subjectively "out of balance" whatever that may mean, I may do qigong especially if I can do it outside in the sunshine. It isn't the cancer cure but it might make the cancer cure more barable on the days when one has nausea and fatigue. I know other people ascribe more healing ability to it and that is fine. This is the kind of help I personally get from it. I know that this is one reason why kata practice will stay with me as I get older. I find it makes me feel better.

I do not know of any objective tests regarding qigong and healing. Some things are deductive and some things are experiencial or inductive. I suppose you could make up a scale like a Leikert scale with 5 points and have people with chronic illnesses rate subjectively how they feel after a Tai Chi class vs a group with chronic illness who attend a lecture about gentle stretching exercises or something but I really don't care that much. It works for me. If someone else wants to do the research, I'd be pleased to read it.
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#416550 - 03/05/09 11:21 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Creative wrote - Could you explain internal organ strengthening to me please.

456 - Without going into too much details by strengthening the body you strengthen the kidneys, heart, lungs and Brain, the more Oxygen the better these organ work. Recent Western science has produce what is called a Hyperbaric Chamber were the person is surrounded by Oxygen to enhance healing of wounds that are hard to heal. With breathing and mentally forcing the Ki/Chi to these different internal organs even the skin you strengthen them and heal the body. It's believed. All this is part of Iron Body training and Yoga. So you see Breath is Life.

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------
456 quote - I beleive this training has help me avoid a stroke, stress of anixety, depression and high blood pressure.

----------------------------------------------------------

Creative wrote - I think care should be taken when making specific claims like 'avoiding a stroke'. Does kata training result in the above? I don't think so specifically. I think you could be broader and say exercise reduces the above.

456 - I agree each person testimony is different but when you massage different parts of your body and the symptoms go away then it works for you. Should I lie and saying it didn't even when It's works numerous times. When you feel pressure build up due to multiple stressful moments and you use Ten Sho like breathing and relax thought and the stress and anixety goes away these are personel testimonies, other may have stroked out and no I wouldn't say this is for everybody no more then I would asked a noivce to handle live weapons like Kama and chain. It is a taught technic that one must be trained to use and believe in or it can be dangerous to the user.

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------

456 - Somethings are not solid or for all to see because they don't want to, but like the wind you don't have to know where it comes from, to know that it can be powerful.
------------------------------------------------------------

Creative - I guess you are talking about ki/chi. I don't know if the thread starter wanted to go down this route.
That you can't see ki because you don't want to does not make sense. if you don't want to feel the wind, do you not feel it? If you don't belive in electric and put your fingers in the plug do you not get a shock?
(Appologies if i've got the wrong end of the stick here!?)

456 - There is no wrong end of the stick what you believe is your reality and so we have this discussion. Really I was talking about the wind and its different forms and how our reality is what we believe. You are right I was parrelling the Wind to Chi, but not to electrity which there is no mystery in how it works giving your example. Weather the poster wanted to add Ki/Chi development into this conversation are not they are inseparable when discussing the connection of massage Chi channeling,healing and even destroying. As for posture imbalances notice the posuture of Sanchin or Ten Sho KATA or the Qi Gong exercises the body structure is aligned and rooted.


456 - Another testimony I visited a fellow Practionters dojo early one mourning to discuss joining our class to enhance training as we often did. That mourning an elderly couple was waiting the husband explained that Their WESTERN DOCTOR had given the wife 3-4 months to live, they decided to seek other help, they started coming to Sensei Anuibus through massage, herbal ointments and treatment her mobility and life force had improved. And she has lived 2 years past the Western Doctors diagnostic, the husband stated he was enjoying every minute of it. I only wish I was that good, I can only heal myself for right now.


Edited by Neko456 (03/05/09 11:33 AM)
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#416551 - 03/05/09 04:19 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

As for posture imbalances notice the posuture of Sanchin or Ten Sho KATA or the Qi Gong exercises the body structure is aligned and rooted.





Right, I agree with Neko on this.

Further, from what I understand, any correction in 'muscle imbalances', is a direct result of maintaining this alignment and building the fascial connections (or 'body connection' as some imaist's call it).

Gavin actually recently posted a nice article about this often overlooked structure of the body here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...70#Post15986850

--Chris
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--Basho

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#416552 - 03/06/09 05:00 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: underdog]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I think Prizewriter's answer is very good. It describes well what I believe to be the healing benefits of kata or qigong.




I'm pretty ignorant on the healing aspects of kata, so I'll go along as I believe prize to be a levelheaded guy.

Quote:

If I am medically sick, I go to a doctor.




I agree and I didn't see anyone imply that kata is better than western medicine or a replacement for it.

Quote:

If I am sick of being sick or feel subjectively "out of balance" whatever that may mean, I may do qigong especially if I can do it outside in the sunshine. It isn't the cancer cure but it might make the cancer cure more barable on the days when one has nausea and fatigue.




I have to disagree with this. As a former cancer patient NOTHING would make the nausea,fatigue or imbalance effects of chemotherapy in high doses disappear. The chemo kills cells and damages your inner ear among many other things. This is what threw off my balance, caused fatigue, etc. The nausea was just another side effect. After 8 different nausea prescriptions I just gave up and dealt with it.

Quote:

I know other people ascribe more healing ability to it and that is fine. This is the kind of help I personally get from it. I know that this is one reason why kata practice will stay with me as I get older. I find it makes me feel better.




I have found that it makes me feel better as well and that's just one reason why I continue kata practice. I have had days where I was drained and just felt frumpy until doing kata and feeling reenergized.

"To each their own", is a great way of looking at kata practice and its' benefits. Everything else is just subjective hogwash.



Quote:

I do not know of any objective tests regarding qigong and healing. Some things are deductive and some things are experiencial or inductive. I suppose you could make up a scale like a Leikert scale with 5 points and have people with chronic illnesses rate subjectively how they feel after a Tai Chi class vs a group with chronic illness who attend a lecture about gentle stretching exercises or something but I really don't care that much. It works for me. If someone else wants to do the research, I'd be pleased to read it.




That would be interesting!
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#416553 - 03/06/09 05:56 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Thanks for your reply Neko,

Quote:

Without going into too much details by strengthening the body you strengthen the kidneys, heart, lungs and Brain....




I can agree with here in that kata, as a form of exercise, can improve your overall health and well being.

Quote:

With breathing and mentally forcing the Ki/Chi to these different internal organs even the skin you strengthen them and heal the body. It's believed. All this is part of Iron Body training and Yoga. So you see Breath is Life.




This doesn't mean a lot to me. If you are saying that to heal after bruise for example, that the area will need to be supplied with blood (after a period of reduced blood flow to reduce swelling by ice) then I would agree with you. I don't think this is what you are saying and can't agree about 'mentally forcing energy to organs'.

Quote:

I agree each person testimony is different but when you massage different parts of your body and the symptoms go away then it works for you.




This is the most important factor. If it works for you then that is great. Keep doing it. It is interesting talking about the mechanics behind the 'how'.

Quote:

When you feel pressure build up due to multiple stressful moments and you use Ten Sho like breathing and relax thought and the stress and anixety goes away these are personel testimonies, other may have stroked out




I don't think that you not having a stroke is evidence that doing kata prevents strokes. Am I misuderstanding what you are saying?

Quote:

You are right I was parrelling the Wind to Chi, but not to electrity which there is no mystery in how it works giving your example.




Is there mystery to how wind works?

Quote:

As for posture imbalances notice the posuture of Sanchin or Ten Sho KATA or the Qi Gong exercises the body structure is aligned and rooted.




Good point. Here I can easily agree with you lol.


Quote:

Another testimony....




Testimonies like these don't really carry much evidence and it is easy too look for what agrees with ones own thought and disregard what does not. Everyone does it, by nature.

I have an elderly relative, in their late 80's who practices Tai chi every day and lives happily. Similarly a friend who out lived doctors life expectancy by years, who practiced tai chi regularly. Sound good for tai chi? What if I said I lied and where i wrote tai chi should have said 'smoked 20 cigarettes'. both true examples btw. Just making a point.
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#416554 - 03/06/09 11:25 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Creative wrote - Testimonies like these don't really carry much evidence and it is easy too look for what agrees with ones own thought and disregard what does not. Everyone does it, by nature.

I have an elderly relative, in their late 80's who practices Tai chi every day and lives happily. Similarly a friend who out lived doctors life expectancy by years, who practiced tai chi regularly. Sound good for tai chi? What if I said I lied and where i wrote tai chi should have said 'smoked 20 cigarettes'. both true examples.
=======================================================
456 - As I stated every bodies testimony is different, in deed there are 80-90-100 year old smokers but on average this not the case a person that lives a fit life usually lives longer. Bottom line if you were a gambling man which would you wager on.

But then again there are numerous cases where medical Doctors either couldn't or would not take time to cure a patince and Accupunture or herbal medicine helped cure them. This is a healing method that been done for centuries. Like you if I have muscular, bone or obvious internal injuries I go to a Western Doctor. But they don't know everything and I've personally experienced cases if you have Insurance they try to pad there books and keep you as long as they can as a paying customer. Again I then have to finsih things myself.

As in any discussion we will hardly ever totally agree on all topics but it is good to debate these issues and lay our cards out on the table.

I think our mission in such discussion shouldn't be to convince one another just to bring forth our finding and understanding based on our own reality.

Good discussion I'm standing by.


Edited by Neko456 (03/06/09 11:29 AM)
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#416555 - 03/06/09 12:35 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Thanks for the reply.

Quote:

As I stated every bodies testimony is different, in deed there are 80-90-100 year old smokers but on average this not the case a person that lives a fit life usually lives longer. Bottom line if you were a gambling man which would you wager on.




I think you missed my point. What I was trying to say is that while personal acounts and individual occurances may be useful to demonstrate a point, they hold very little weight as evidence.

Quote:

But then again there are numerous cases where medical Doctors either couldn't or would not take time to cure a patince and Accupunture or herbal medicine helped cure them. This is a healing method that been done for centuries.




That it has been done for centuries does not mean that it is right or good. Perhaps it is because for hundreds of years people simply had nothing better?
I think that the treatments you mentioned can help people and for some conditions may be a better option than drugs. But I feel their use is limited especially in more serious conditions/illnesses.

Quote:

Like you if I have muscular, bone or obvious internal injuries I go to a Western Doctor. But they don't know everything and I've personally experienced cases if you have Insurance they try to pad there books and keep you as long as they can as a paying customer. Again I then have to finsih things myself.




Firstly, that doctors don't know everything doesn't mean that 'alternative' practices do. (Not that I think you were saying so).
I'm from the UK so have NHS so don't have the problem you mentioned. I'd hope that this isn't the case for the majority of American patients? Perhaps some other USAians could give their view?

Neko, is it fair to say you have a negative view of doctors/western medicine?

Quote:

As in any discussion we will hardly ever totally agree on all topics but it is good to debate these issues and lay our cards out on the table.




Cool, cool. Am enjoying the debate!

Quote:

I think our mission in such discussion shouldn't be to convince one another just to bring forth our finding and understanding based on our own reality.




Our own reality? Don't really understand what you mean there!

I'm just trying to look at the facts. The thread was 'can kata have health/recovery benifits'. IMO Most certainly yes, but I don't think there is anything mysterious about those benifits, ala ki/chi, or that can't be described through modern thinking/science/western medicine.
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#416556 - 03/06/09 01:50 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I also appreciate the input.

Creative wrote - I think you missed my point. What I was trying to say is that while personal acounts and individual occurances may be useful to demonstrate a point, they hold very little weight as evidence.


456 - Granted but we go back to the question 'if a bear farts in the wood, does anybody hear it"? Does mean it didn't happen. Evidence is needed when retracing an event what happen sometime is far different then the evidence now shows. Just like history, it depend on who is telling His story.


Creative wrote - That it has been done for centuries does not mean that it is right or good. Perhaps it is because for hundreds of years people simply had nothing better?
I think that the treatments you mentioned can help people and for some conditions may be a better option than drugs. But I feel their use is limited especially in more serious conditions/illnesses.

456 - I agree there are a lot of things done because of tradition or igornance. Usually when something better is found this stop my debate to this is the opposite something more Modren can't handle it so we go back to nature or basic and it works.


Creative wrote - Firstly, that doctors don't know everything doesn't mean that 'alternative' practices do. (Not that I think you were saying so).
I'm from the UK so have NHS so don't have the problem you mentioned. I'd hope that this isn't the case for the majority of American patients? Perhaps some other USAians could give their view?

Neko, is it fair to say you have a negative view of doctors/western medicine?


456 - No I don't have a negative view of Doctors no more then I have a negative view of any other trade or profession but I do know the nature of Man he has his weakness. And some times we becomes pawns in their gain to pay for that new Bimmer or Benze or divorce so they can have the young intern. Such is life but don't waste my time or life with a Doctors wants. There are bad Policemen, Doctors, Nurses, Martial artist and Dictators all coruppted by selfish wants.

Our own reality? Don't really understand what you mean there! I'm just trying to look at the facts. The thread was 'can kata have health/recovery benifits'. IMO Most certainly yes, but I don't think there is anything mysterious about those benifits, ala ki/chi, or that can't be described through modern thinking/science/western medicine.




456 - Our own reality is based on the facts gathered from the things we've experienced and believe as fact or works for us. This is the basic of how and why some people see things differently. I believe in herbal, massage/accupressure and body healing by touch I also believe in Chi/Ki and prayer there are somethings that facts and evidence don't explain and is why medical science don't have the answer to all illiness. And starting this through certain Kata training. So when someone experience healing or power outside the norm I don't question it as much as I do try to understand it. I have witness know of and have experience force that I can't reproduce under normal situation but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I may sound way out but really I'm middle of the road unlike some of my Senseis and other famous teachers I know of I don't believe in the benifit of the use magic Mushrooms, Snake oil wine, or Hashi induced medidation that causes enhance Chi developement like aura force fields, figures on the wall to move and tell secrets or Transculadental flight or Dimensional travel. So you see I am nearer to you then we are different. Like you I believe the evidnce shows that these jokers where just high.

My reality is not their's, by a mile or least by a joint.


Edited by Neko456 (03/06/09 01:57 PM)

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#416557 - 03/06/09 02:36 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
stac3y Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/08
Posts: 42
Just a side note that pertains to the original post, though not necessarily where the discussion has gone: in his autobiography, "Karate-Do, My Way of Life," Funakoshi describes his method of dealing with illness, which was to "perform kata until sweat runs from the body." (Not an exact quote; I don't have my copy handy.

When I feel like I'm getting a cold, or have an allergy attack, I've had some success with sweating it out this way, though I can't say that kata would work any better than another sustained physical activity. When I've got a stomach thing, I don't even bother to try.

Someone else mentioned improvement of posture and balance; the curriculum I study contains mostly kata that are pretty symmetrical, which I think is beneficial for balance and for equally developing both sides of the body. I have noticed that many people spar in only one direction (I don't; I'm ambidextrous, meaning that I'm equally incompetent in both directions), so I can see where being forced to use both sides in a symmetrical kata could be beneficial as well.
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#416558 - 03/09/09 06:55 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Quote:

It's seems to be a pattern from beginner to Master that the healing and destroying process of the Neija Martial arts are one.

The merdians and points to concentrate on are rubbed or struck in reverse in order to heal or destroy also breathing enhances these effects. This is a discipline that is part of Africa, Phillopiness and Indo-Asian arts as well Eastern Asian in my studies the 5 element principles have different names but the near same applications and principles.

Goju/Naha-Te from the 1st 6 month on you hear and train aspect of Ki/Chi developement channeling it and harvesting it to heal or destroy. This is started in the simple KATA of Sanchin the Naha-Te student is told that this is a Kata that he will practice throughtout kyu level well into his Dan ranking in this art, its purpose is to open the door to Iron shrit training. Most Naha-Te exponent go on to study Hsing-I/Bagua, Tachi Chaun, Yoga, or Silat to further harnashes and control this energy. As in the Goju Soke Miyagi in his study of Pakua and Tachi and his Student Toguchi a Yoga practictioner. I'm sure others followed a similar study but I know these two and many people that I've trained and studied with. In Naha-Te warm up exercise the toes and ankle are limbered up, lots of points on the foot.

I personally use the Tensho and Sanchin for stress relife. Also external muscular, tendon and internal organ strengthening. I know that I can deliever and with stand a heavier blow to the body if I breath during it. It is said that Breath is Life in the Internal arts of Neija, in this concept you see Float, Swallow, Spit, Sink theroy and the Iron Cotton concept all seen and started as part of Naha-Te training. Now I added this to show it is a need to know principle if you don't know you don't know. You are not there yet. It doesn't mean or is not a mark against you as a Martial art, I have BB students that don't gather it value, as I tell them there is nothing wrong with Blunt Trama it been working since the Cain and Able.

I haven't Mastered it but I know it's there I have felt it and delievered it but I haven't Mastered neither aspect of it. I beleive this training has help me avoid a stroke, stress of anixety, depression and high blood pressure because I can control my body through concentration and breathing. Somethings are not solid or for all to see because they don't want to, but like the wind you don't have to know where it comes from, to know that it can be powerful.

I know alot of words that don't mean nothing if you don't believe, it all starts with a Question and the Mind researches it. There is really something to the quote that "The Mind is the Warrior's strongest weapon".





Sorry but this is HS from beginning to end. You start from the position that chi is real, rather than a historical TCM explanation based on virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy, itself probably inherited from the ancient Greeks, who had similar beliefs about the balance of humors regulating health. Chi has been extensively investigated scientifically and found completely unproved, for which read non-existent.

As for strengthening your internal organs, what does that actually mean? Your liver or kidneys are physically stronger? Prove it. This is more pseudo-medical nonsense that you cannot substantiate. I also prefer my liver soft, not hard, as I am led to believe it works better this way, hardening being an indication of sclerosis. If by "organ strengthening" you mean "more efficient", then, again, prove it instead of making faith-based claims.

Reduced stress and stronger muscles come from most forms of exercise-kata offers nothing special in this sense and this hardly amounts to the "healing" or "balancing" (an imbalance in The Force maybe?) that you are so desperate to defend.

Kata has a lot of benefits but this "first grader", as you choose to call me, has been practicing kata for a quarter century without seeing any "healing" take place.

Contrary to your claims, it is not "all about belief", it is about not making supernatural and metaphysical claims that you cannot be back up. And getting offended when someone calls you on it. You must have some very gullible students...

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#416559 - 03/09/09 10:34 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Brad wrote - Sorry but this is HS from beginning to end. You start from the position that chi is real, rather than a historical TCM explanation based on virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy, itself probably inherited from the ancient Greeks, who had similar beliefs about the balance of humors regulating health. Chi has been extensively investigated scientifically and found completely unproved, for which read non-existent.

As for strengthening your internal organs, what does that actually mean? Your liver or kidneys are physically stronger? Prove it. This is more pseudo-medical nonsense that you cannot substantiate. I also prefer my liver soft, not hard, as I am led to believe it works better this way, hardening being an indication of sclerosis. If by "organ strengthening" you mean "more efficient", then, again, prove it instead of making faith-based claims.

Reduced stress and stronger muscles come from most forms of exercise-kata offers nothing special in this sense and this hardly amounts to the "healing" or "balancing" (an imbalance in The Force maybe?) that you are so desperate to defend.

Kata has a lot of benefits but this "first grader", as you choose to call me, has been practicing kata for a quarter century without seeing any "healing" take place.

Contrary to your claims, it is not "all about belief", it is about not making supernatural and metaphysical claims that you cannot be back up. And getting offended when someone calls you on it. You must have some very gullible students...


456 - Interesting points of views similar to Creative but less open to the possibility of some one else reality being their own. Interesting that you brought up the Greeks I'll add because they believed themself suprerior warriors they where for that time. The power of mental suggestion is a powerful source it spurs and bond the MBS. Its use is not uncommon or magic. But just like magic if you don't train or understand it you see it as impossible or a fake or a mircle, it is just training of illusion. The different in stage magic and White and Black magic is one pays big bucks (if you got a gimmick) the other two will take you to hell just my O. I bring this up because I hear the power of belife is so powerful that if u believe in Black/White magic I hear it can harm you and if you don't it can't. My point is each person reality is based on their experience in life and for this subject what they have trained in. As I stated in the intelligent discussion with Creative that my purpose is to tell my view not prove to anyone not even my students something is fact or fiction. Each person is entitle to believe what they want some people can only handle their truth/fact. As with some of my former student I just presented the training they absorb what they felt was functionable, some wanted only fighting skills, others wanted to learn control and other wanted confidnece each found their own journey as is the way of the martial arts. Now maybe this is what happened to you, you were not expose to this training so you don't believe or it was there and you choice to disregrad it. Whatever the case you are entitled to your own belife and reality. But there is a study of Accupressure/Accupuncture and massage that are based on Chi/Ki, though you say its not been proven clinics are abound here and aboard. Professional athelets uses these services when other forms are slow or don't work, and get good results. Of course you can find tells of the opposite as in fatal Western genral purpose operations with 90%+ success rating. It all depends on what that individual's body and mind is ready for, is the link to this topic.

Back on the main topic some people are introduce to Sanchin and Ten sho as normal forms to practice as part of the set, others train these Kata set aside form the fighting forms as a method of internal development that breath is strength and life. Personally I don't see anything mysterious about this and you don't need any help to find this out, hold your breath until you get weak or faint. The function of Man is biological, spirit and mental each can work separately or together the bond is what makes the person that believes (think) he is stronger or One.

As a senior told me of his sons travel though life, The son stated that,"When he was in high school, he thought his Dad was the dumbest and out of touch person that he had ever met". Now at 30 something his son states that after going through all the mess he had being disobedient doing things his way, he resolved That the older he got the smartert his Dad seemed. My point is experience is the greatest teacher obviouly our journey in the Martial art is different though years in train or close. But like this dumb Father my students some are Sokes of thier own system come back and tell me the son's story.

Your path in the martial art seem vested continue it and post what you find on the way. I will too.

We could both go get Google videos to support our view but that wouldn't be base on our personal experiences and wouldn't prove anything if we are interesting in proving something which I'm not. But I will discuss my views and belief.


For now let us agree to disagree. You post your views and I'll post mines, In the end if you were my teacher or I yours, our choices would still be our own.

Stacy3 - Unlike most fighting forms the principle of Sanchin, Ten sho or Qi-gong can be done sitting, walking or standing still it is more a mental control of mind, body and spirit. Some times the fight is not an external opponent its self/internal, Stress Kills. This is modern sceince as well as anicent. As Brad so boldly stated could be HS or not find what works for you.


Edited by Neko456 (03/09/09 11:07 AM)

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#416560 - 03/09/09 11:53 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

456 - Our own reality is based on the facts gathered from the things we've experienced and believe as fact or works for us. This is the basic of how and why some people see things differently.




I think you're use of 'reality' is different (correct but different) to the common definition.

Wikipedia
Quote:

Reality, in everyday usage, means "the state of things as they actually exist"




Quote:

I believe in herbal, massage/accupressure and body healing by touch..




Different aspects of the above things sit both sides of a blurred line. I think we are sitting on opposite sides of that line!

Quote:

...I also believe in Chi/Ki and prayer there are somethings that facts and evidence don't explain and is why medical science don't have the answer to all illiness.




Medical science does not have all the answers because it is still young. I'm not saying that it ever will have all the answers. But just because it does not understand something, does not mean the answer is magic.
Also I'm quite sure science has looked to some extent into both prayer and ki/chi. The evidence is there to be interpretted.

Quote:

So when someone experience healing or power outside the norm I don't question it as much as I do try to understand it.




You must question it to understand it. Otherwise you can end up beliving thing like smoking allows you to live to old age etc.

Quote:

I have witness know of and have experience force that I can't reproduce under normal situation but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I may sound way out but really I'm middle of the road unlike some of my Senseis and other famous teachers I know of.




lol.

Quote:

I don't believe in the benifit of the use magic Mushrooms, Snake oil wine, or Hashi induced medidation that causes enhance Chi developement like aura force fields, figures on the wall to move and tell secrets or Transculadental flight or Dimensional travel. So you see I am nearer to you then we are different. Like you I believe the evidnce shows that these jokers where just high.




So scientific evidence can be used to validate these claims, but not others? How do you decided which 'alternative medicine' falls under the banner of science. IMO all do.

Quote:

My reality is not their's, by a mile or least by a joint.






IMO it would be far better for the actual benifits of karate/kata training to be honestly and acurately assessed. I'm sure that way it could be better ustilised.


Off topic. This is my same thoughts when it comes to application of kata. IMO more karateka should moved away from the 'kata does everything' 'kata training has no weaknesses' etc etc POV. I'm sure the debates wouldn't be kata vs. mma or what ever, but perhaps functional training (including kata) vs disfunctional training.

edit.
Neko, I found your last post difficult to understand! Sorry.


Edited by creative (03/09/09 11:54 AM)
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#416561 - 03/09/09 01:27 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Creative wrote - Wikipedia

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------

Reality, in everyday usage, means "the state of things as they actually exist"



456 - I agree but what exist to one doesn't mean it is reality to another, which is why we have our debate.

I only used the thought of Magic to say that people believe in different things and some base/waste an entire life on it. My reply to Brad was a little vage because he seems to be asking for proof over the internet. There is proof in touch in that two or three slight strikes to certain points of the body weaken or collaspes the body. And that rubbing or massaging these points can help heal certain illiness.

As for kata being the fix all heal all I don't beleive that. I don't believe Kata teaches how to fight it is after thought as in knowing a topic and reserching it. After learning how to fight you can see fighting method in the form. Probably the same way in given a speech you can refine it by using a diticonary/Kata.

I do believe that there are fighting Kata and energy storing/short range delivery forms that open the door to Neija training. Kata doesn't fix or solve anything its just part of turning the key to open the door. There is no magic.

One Chi/Ki exponent used this simple explaination. We understand that under stress the body is capable of great speed & power, As in the small mother lifting a Tractor or Car off her Son. This is called an andrenlin rush or ADR for short. He goes on to state, "Imagne being able to summon this type energy up at will. It's not magic its already part of our make up, I believe". I find it in all of my training from Silat, Goju,... to Jujitsu. Brad stated that even the anicent Greeks beleieved in some type of method of energy channeling.

I hear some people talk about being afraid in a fight. This changes slightly weather this is experience from being there and doing it or Mental re-channelling the feeling, that same fear can be channel to make us move faster and be more powerful. Its part of beleiving I am a layman and purposely fall in the bunch of no deep explaination for things I know works for me. There is a reason we train the way we do, there is a reason why Neija base system think the was way we do. Ideals are a part of our Training.

I find it interesting in that similar trained exponents see things differently when I see it in their movement and training, maybe a case of whatever works with no explaination taken to heart. Or maybe a scienitific explanation that explains the event without the metphors. What one believes is a powerful thing, in that it sets his views.


Edited by Neko456 (03/09/09 01:41 PM)
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#416562 - 03/09/09 01:55 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
You said: "...less open to the possibility of some one else reality being their own."

However "reality" in its usual meaning is an absolute concept, not a subjective thing dependent on any person's feeling or belief.

Chi/Ki has never been shown to exist despite extensive research and testing. The many TCM clinics do not make chi any more real. Acupuncture has been shown to be effective because it releases endorphins, nothing to do with mystical energy channels. I have had it and it works fine. For other things it has been found no more effective than a placebo.

You believing that it exists or that you have experienced it still does not make it real. The body can do amazing things without having to resort to supernatural explanations.

"We could both go get Google videos to support our view..."

If you can actually show me videos that demonstrate the existence of chi under scientifically controlled conditions where the tests are carried out by impartial academics, I would be very interested to see them.

Since I make no claims that kata can heal illness, as you say you believe, I am under no obligation to prove a negative. However if you assert it-which you are perfectly entitled to do obviously-then the onus falls on you to back it up surely?

These guys will pay you a lot of money if you can prove to them that Chi exists:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=44732

As they say there, if chi is energy, then it must be measurable, as we can easily measure light, heat, radiation and other kinds of energy, so why not chi if it exists?

Finally and off-topic, your son & senior are roughly quoting Mark Twain FWIW: "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years. "

B.

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#416563 - 03/09/09 02:02 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Brad stated that even the anicent Greeks beleieved in some type of method of energy channeling."

Please don't use me to back up your beliefs-I said the Greeks believed this because they apparently did and it was possibly the source of TCM and I made very clear that the ancient Greeks 2.5 thousand years ago were as mistaken as TCM practicioners then and now. Again you confuse reality and belief (they really believed it but it does not make it real!)

"There is proof in touch in that two or three slight strikes to certain points of the body weaken or collaspes the body."

Nothing to do with ki though. I have seen people hit quite lightly and show strong reactions that you might expect only from a hard strike and I have done it myself and been on the receiving end. However there are numerous reasons why this can happen, all of them physical (relating to stimulation of nerve bundles and firing off measurable electricity in muscles for example) none of them requiring mystical and undemonstrable chi energy.

"And that rubbing or massaging these points can help heal certain illiness."

Again with the crazy claims (which illnesses, who and where?) that you decline to substantiate...

B.


Edited by Barad (03/09/09 02:07 PM)

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#416564 - 03/09/09 02:09 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

TCM explanation based on virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy, itself probably inherited from the ancient Greeks, who had similar beliefs about the balance of humors regulating health. Chi has been extensively investigated scientifically and found completely unproved, for which read non-existent.






Please cite the studies where this was done.

It's not my intention to prove whether or not chi exists, however, keep in mind that the term is often poorly translated, defined, or purposely misused by charlatans who cater to Westerners jedi fantasies.

Quote:

If by "organ strengthening" you mean "more efficient", then, again, prove it instead of making faith-based claims.





Many of these Eastern practinces (qigong's) HAVE been documented to make the organ and other body systems "more efficient".

From here:
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Quote:


Benson developed the "relaxation response," which he describes as "a physiological state opposite to stress." It is characterized by decreases in metabolism, breathing rate, heart rate, and blood pressure . He and others have amassed evidence that it can help those suffering from illnesses caused or exacerbated by stress. Benson and colleagues use it to treat anxiety, mild and moderate depression, high blood pressure, heartbeat irregularities, excessive anger, insomnia, and even infertility .
[...]
The researchers also made measurements on practitioners of other forms of advanced meditation in Sikkim, India. They were astonished to find that these monks could lower their metabolism by 64 percent. "It was an astounding, breathtaking [no pun intended] result," Benson exclaims.

To put that decrease in perspective, metabolism, or oxygen consumption, drops only 10-15 percent in sleep and about 17 percent during simple meditation.





This is one example of a scientist actually measuring the effects of what the Chinese would call 'chi'. These monks were able to raise their body temperature enough to dry wet blankets in freezing temperatures. Keep in mind, that this defies the Western conception of physiology (people aren't supposed to be able to raise their core temperatures like this without passing out, or dying).

So part of the reason why we might not know much about this 'stuff' is simply because it does not fit into our current conceptions of physiology/anatomy, and therefore remains difficult to 'prove,' until the conception changes.

I'd also suggest looking into the current revolution going on in cognitive therapy, in which ancient Buddhist mindfulness practices are being used to treat major psycological issues--then I'd like to hear you say again that these people had "virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy".

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416565 - 03/09/09 02:28 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Ames,

I am familiar with the Harvard study you cite-it proves that individuals can assert control over their body temperature using meditation and breathing. This is interesting and surprising, as it is extremely rare and hard to do. However, it says nothing whatsoever about chi despite your assertions but you leap from this to claim it to prove your own supernatural beliefs, which is a bit sly.

I will hunt out the papers on Chi testing that failed to record any chi energy whatsoever. There is also a relatively recent video of medical doctors and physicists in the US wiring up so-called Chi Masters to test for any unusual energy when they claimed to be projecting chi. They detected nothing. I will post them when I find them again.

That said, as I said to Neko, you are asking me for proof of a negative. The onus is on you to prove chi exists if you assert this. The article you cite does not do it and in fact no such proof exists so I do not really expect to see it.

But guess what, according to this guy Chi is a gas. Unfortunately it seems to be an undetectable gas so inert that no one can identify it:

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Scientific_Explanation_of_Chi_Kung_No_4_-_Chi_Circulation.html

However this martial artist is closer to my position and explains the logical standpoint very well:

http://strikingthoughts.wordpress.com/2007/12/31/chi-debunked/



B.

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#416566 - 03/09/09 02:35 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"So part of the reason why we might not know much about this 'stuff' is simply because it does not fit into our current conceptions of physiology/anatomy, and therefore remains difficult to 'prove,' until the conception changes."

I would rather look at physical explanations than believe in "The Force". You have it all the wrong way around-you want to believe in it so it is the only explanation. Are you familiar with Occam's Razor? OR does not lead you to Chi!

"I'd also suggest looking into the current revolution going on in cognitive therapy, in which ancient Buddhist mindfulness practices are being used to treat major psycological issues--then I'd like to hear you say again that these people had "virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy"."

This has what to do with Chi? You seem to want to widen Chi to mean whatever practice you feel like. Getting offended on behalf of some monks is just a diversion...

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#416567 - 03/09/09 04:17 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

Ames,

I am familiar with the Harvard study you cite-it proves that individuals can assert control over their body temperature using meditation and breathing. This is interesting and surprising, as it is extremely rare and hard to do. However, it says nothing whatsoever about chi despite your assertions but you leap from this to claim it to prove your own supernatural beliefs, which is a bit sly.


B.




Barad

Ames said right from the get go " It's not my intention to prove whether or not chi exists,"

I don't think he is saying "Chi" exists. I think he is offering evidence that what some people call/believe to be "Chi" is actually being studied from a scientific point of view to find out what exactly happens to the body/mind (if anything happens at all) during yoga/qi going et al. In other words, people in the scientific community are trying to debunk "chi" while remaining open to the fact that a lot of these things (e.g. Qi Gong) can have health benefits that can be explained in a rational/scientific way.

That to me is what Ames is saying.

Once again, I found Taiji to be helpful in my PCS recovery because it helped correct my postural problems which medical studies have shown to be helpful in concussion recovery. Many long-term PCS or Traumatic Brain Injury sufferers have reported great success with Chiropractory/Physiotherapy relating to their spine/neck/head.

Nothing magically about it, just relaxed purposeful movement that in my case had healing effects IMO.

My Taiji teacher is a qualified nurse. He told me he had a health check done a few years ago shortly after turning 50. Amongest other things, he had his lung capacity measured. The doctor said it was the strongest reading he had ever seen. My Taiji teacher passed the fitness test with flying colours. The doctor told him to "Keep doing what he was doing". Aside from regular walks, all my teacher does is Taiji and Qi Gong (ableit for several hours a day!!).

Now, as Barad said, perhaps he would be just as fit, with just as strong lung capacity, if he did other excercise forms e.g. if he were a marathon runner. I'd bet good money though his knees/shins/hips wouldn't be in such great shape if he ran marathons as long as he did Taiji though.

This is a point I am trying to make: Kata/Yoga/Pilates/Qi Gong/Taiji can all be great for a persons health, not just for the work out, but also because they are a LOT less likely to injure you than many other excercise forms that would give you similar benefits (such as similar cardio benefits). I also believe that these movement systems can be helpful in "correcting" postural imbalances built up over a life time, which again can only be helpful to someones health.

Victor recounted a story on here of a friend of his who was terminally ill. His movement ability deteriorated to the point where he could hardly move. Victor said he was still able to perform some Taiji though, which surprised the doctors.

Does this mean "Chi" exists? Of course not. Does that mean Taiji has absoultely no worth and can't help improve a persons health in ways other movement systems can't? I don't believe so either. Just a belief based on my own experience that I am trying to explain rationally to myself, if no one else.

The problem in this issue is that opinions often get polarized i.e. Eastern movement systems are better than medicine/Eastern movement systems are a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

I try to keep my mind open.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#416568 - 03/09/09 04:19 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Thought I'd put some definitions of chi proposed by these google results. Google search: What is chi?

http://www.chirunning.com/shop/pages.php?pageid=7
Quote:

Chi is energy - the life giving energy that unites body, mind and spirit. Everyone has Chi. When you die, your Chi is no longer there.




http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-chi.htm
Quote:

In Asian tradition, chi is the life force which permeates the world. In addition to being in all living beings, chi is also found in spaces such as homes and gardens.




http://www.essortment.com/lifestyle/fengshuitipsw_svsi.htm
Quote:

chi is the energy that flows through the universe. In Taoism, everything is composed of two opposite, yet complimentary energies, called yin and yang. Together these two energies form chi. Chi is a part of everything in the world, both living and non-organic.




http://www.opencollege.info/fengshuicourse.html
Quote:

Chi is an invisible energy that flows in through and around our bodies, including the environment that we live in. Re-arrangement of the interior of our home is said to change our levels of happiness, health and wealth




In my experience, definitions of chi are often in 2 catagories, either an actual existing energy or as a metaphorical energy. Does the IMA forum have a definition for chi?
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#416569 - 03/09/09 04:35 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Prizewriter]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Good post, I agree with most all of what you say.

I have a question for you. Do you think that things like tai chi might be used by more people to improve health if it wasn't surrounded with 'mysterious' talk of chi and energies?
For example, might doctors be more inclined to reccommend its use? Would people be less sceptical of it?
_________________________
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#416570 - 03/09/09 04:54 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Barad wrote - Please don't use me to back up your beliefs-I said the Greeks believed this because they apparently did and it was possibly the source of TCM and I made very clear that the ancient Greeks 2.5 thousand years ago were as mistaken as TCM practicioners then and now. Again you confuse reality and belief (they really believed it but it does not make it real!)

456 - I don't need or want YOU for any back up, Who do you think you are? Buddy you are on a open forum if you say something you should have the guts to standby it. Or at least say you don't want me using what you say because you don't like what I stated or who I am. Not that it would change anything this is a open forum and I definitely don't want a connection to you in any way or what you believe. Though you are entitled to what you believe.

Once you write it its yours opinion with no trademarks. I don't care if you take something I post and put it on a billboard I said it and I'll stand by it (if not misquoted). I understand the un written rule, you are not special. You said it SO what?

I didn't confuse anything I added to your supposed idea, that not only did they think it they expressed it by conqureing the world as they knew it with their superior battelfield skills. So facts/belife can be close to reality if you will it or wield it, that portion of the world at that time definetly founded it to be true. Despite what YOU believe.

As for your suggestion of the orgin of all TCMA maybe, maybe not theres no proof just theory. I believe in the limited limb theory which is just as vaild a theory.

Though I respect your opinion I deplore your debate techniques. It doesn't matter there are plenty of other members we can debate with beside each other.

Really I take that last statement back the last part of your ending comment intrigues me, though I may only read your replies and join in if you don't mind. I'm interested in that you can happen upon it but refuse to believe there is a century old study on the topic. But unlike you I won't say don't use my statement because I stand by my words. Is it crazy that massage and the 5 element principles are studied and exploroed? But because they don't fit your reality, you think its CRAZY. You say you been studying for more then 25 years isolated I assume since we both are assuming things. But standby your words, I don't need YOU to back up any thing I believe, you can count on that. I'm MY BACK UP.

In the end you not believing is not going to change what others have experienced. Debate it bc we are on an open forum but it won't change my views.


Prizewriter - I concur good find. Where did some get the idea that Magic was involved????


Creative wrote - For example, might doctors be more inclined to reccommend its use? Would people be less sceptical of it?


456 - There is a crazy theory that Western medicence's Multi Billion dollar industry doesn't want to cure or heal they want to medicate. Kinda Keeps that check rolling in. Note this is not my thoughts it was a Professor that I worked with who wrote software for some of the medical field billing systems. Just a thought Crazy as it may seem to use Barads method cause I don't beleive it, its Crazy, like I know every damn thing. Personally I don't think its that far a stretch.


Edited by Neko456 (03/09/09 05:23 PM)
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#416571 - 03/09/09 05:17 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
First off, Prizewriter said:

Quote:

I don't think he is saying "Chi" exists. I think he is offering evidence that what some people call/believe to be "Chi" is actually being studied from a scientific point of view to find out what exactly happens to the body/mind (if anything happens at all) during yoga/qi going et al. In other words, people in the scientific community are trying to debunk "chi" while remaining open to the fact that a lot of these things (e.g. Qi Gong) can have health benefits that can be explained in a rational/scientific way.

That to me is what Ames is saying.





That is what I was trying to get at, and thanks for encapsulating it so well.

Barad

Quote:

I am familiar with the Harvard study you cite-it proves that individuals can assert control over their body temperature using meditation and breathing . This is interesting and surprising, as it is extremely rare and hard to do. However, it says nothing whatsoever about chi despite your assertions but you leap from this to claim it to prove your own supernatural beliefs, which is a bit sly.





I think the problem here is that you are working with second or thrid hand information regarding the 'internal' aspect of these systems.

'Chi' in Japan in known as 'ki', and one art that makes use of 'ki' is Aikido. In his book "Shugyo", Gozo Shioda states (I paraphrase) that the Yoshinkan calls ki 'kokyo'. Kokyo means breath, or breath power, and many techniques in Aikido and IMA in general rely on breath power. In Yoga, the word 'prajna' is often translated as 'energy', but a more exact translation is simply 'breath'.

Quote:

This has what to do with Chi? You seem to want to widen Chi to mean whatever practice you feel like. Getting offended on behalf of some monks is just a diversion...





The use of ki, chi, prajna in physical systems is related to, and dependent on breath control, and mental focus/intent.

Meditation often makes use of this same 'power.' For example, in Zen you are instructed to breath from your Hara, while in Tibetan Buddhism, one breaths from their lower abdomen, but also 'through' a variety of systems of the body. In some Yogic mediation methods (such as Kundalini) one attempts to move the breath through the body, up through the 'chakras', and eventually into the chakra of the forehead. From my research, gTummo is similar. So you can call it breath, or you can call it 'energy', but in the end, it means either one. So attemtpting to reduce this to a 'well that's just breath and meditation, and has nothing to to with chi', totally misses the essence, as both the a 'meditating' (focused) mind, and breath power is neccesary in all these systems, including those that you reduce to the overly simplified "meditation".

I thought I would help clarify all that for you.


creative:

Quote:

Do you think that things like tai chi might be used by more people to improve health if it wasn't surrounded with 'mysterious' talk of chi and energies?





In my experiance, people who know this stuff well, can explain it in terms that make sense. The problem is that there often aren't Western equivlents for what is being explained (hence that Harvard scientist having to come up with his own term for this stuff) so the terms and definitions, even translations can be quite different.

The main thing with this topic is to seperate the charlatans from those who are actually skilled (a difficult thing to do).

Also, if one were to write off the 'mysterious talk of energies' they would miss the entire point of what they are doing. What they should be doing is endeavoring to form these concepts into working definitions so that they can understand what they are doing better. Recently, a lot of good work has been done towards the goal of restating these concepts in Western terms. The thing is, in the end, it's still the same thing, just a different name.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416572 - 03/10/09 05:50 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Buddy you are on a open forum if you say something you should have the guts to standby it."

Sorry Neko, you selectively quoted me to misrepresent that I believed in the Greek medical concepts that may have preceded TCM. I stand by what I said that the Greeks themselves believed this (why would I not?) but not how you tried to twist it to support your own view that the Greeks' view was actually correct.

The rest of your post seems to be you letting off steam-have fun with that. Maybe some kata would help you relax? You still buy into an unsubstantiated fantasy about mythical energy that somehow cannot be identified or proven in any way but you still believe in it totally. As you know, I find that totally stupid. Anything you have done or experienced is entirely explainable by physics, however strange or incredible it seems to you.

Since you want to get personal, your own "debating style" seems to rely on angrily rejecting any logical questioning of your perspective and repeating how strongly you believe in fairy tales about Chi/ki, as if getting angry and ever more strident in your beliefs makes them any less stupid or in any way correct. It does not.


Edited by Barad (03/10/09 06:05 AM)

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#416573 - 03/10/09 05:59 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"In other words, people in the scientific community are trying to debunk "chi" while remaining open to the fact that a lot of these things (e.g. Qi Gong) can have health benefits that can be explained in a rational/scientific way."

If that is actually your point of view, then I agree with it. Some of these practices are beneficial for reasons that can be explained by medical science, including placebo effect, amongst other things. However it means that the TCM explanations for certain things reliant on a mystery, undetectable energy, Chi, are false. This is implied in your quote above, as it talks about a rational explanation, as opposed to the irrationality of undetectable energy fields.

"you can call it breath, or you can call it 'energy', but in the end, it means either one."

No you cannot. As I said yesterday, you are simply conveniently using Chi/ki to mean whatever you want it to mean, to suit your perspective.

Try this definition: "Energy is the capacity of a physical system to perform work. Energy exists in several forms such as heat, kinetic or mechanical energy, light, potential energy, electrical, or other forms." How can breath be considered energy by this? All energy is identifiable and measurable-when you can identify and measure chi and demonstrate the physical capacity of chi to perform work, I will be on the way to being convinced.


Edited by Barad (03/10/09 06:03 AM)

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#416574 - 03/10/09 10:56 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

"Buddy you are on a open forum if you say something you should have the guts to standby it."

Sorry Neko, you selectively quoted me to misrepresent that I believed in the Greek medical concepts that may have preceded TCM. I stand by what I said that the Greeks themselves believed this (why would I not?) but not how you tried to twist it to support your own view that the Greeks' view was actually correct.

The rest of your post seems to be you letting off steam-have fun with that. Maybe some kata would help you relax? You still buy into an unsubstantiated fantasy about mythical energy that somehow cannot be identified or proven in any way but you still believe in it totally. As you know, I find that totally stupid. Anything you have done or experienced is entirely explainable by physics, however strange or incredible it seems to you.

Since you want to get personal, your own "debating style" seems to rely on angrily rejecting any logical questioning of your perspective and repeating how strongly you believe in fairy tales about Chi/ki, as if getting angry and ever more strident in your beliefs makes them any less stupid or in any way correct. It does not.




Barad Your Exact quote - Sorry but this is HS from beginning to end. You start from the position that chi is real, rather than a historical TCM explanation based on virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy, itself probably inherited from the ancient Greeks, who had similar beliefs about the balance of humors regulating health. Chi has been extensively investigated scientifically and found completely unproved, for which read non-existent.

My statement - Barad stated that the anicent Greeks believed in ...

Nowhere is it twisted that you are saying that YOU believe in what I'm saying or what the Greeks thought only that they believed also in a Chi like healing energy. I only brought out the effectiveness of their belief and how it rewrote history. So your dis-belief is not as valid as History is what I meant. Anyone following this thread KNOWs that we disagree on this topic. But as you can tell you seem to battling on both sides but there are just as many peopel that belief are different then yours and mines then they are like you or I. Such is the reality of man as in a color unless you use a adjective as in Absolute Reality its like the color Blue many shades.

I don't like being discredited either I mean to think that I'd need YOU to back up anything that I said. That did rub me the wrong way, I apologoze to all for that lack control.

I wasn't angry nor am I making it personal I just don't like your debate style and closed minded views. But as I constantly stated in this debate you are entitled to them without being called stupid or crazy.

As for you thinking I believe in some magical mystic energy I think this is were the rub starts, in almost all my replies I say its not mystic it is part of the human make up part of how the Universe is formed. I believe it can be measured by bio-chemistry.

One extrem example are the Yoga exponents that can be submerged under water in a clear cubic for 30 minutes ro more. Good swimmers normally can only hold there breath for 4-9 minutes this is an example of MBS control. Nothing magical its just training.

If any bodies twisting what been said its You, I don't believe in magic though I know it exist and I don't beleive its stupid or crazy just because I don't believe in it or want to waste my time understanding. It is real to some people. Just not me.

Bottom line you can't prove that Chi healing doesn't exist over the internet no more then I can prove it does.
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#416575 - 03/10/09 10:58 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
By that definition can thought be considered energy or is thought, that directs energy?
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www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#416576 - 03/10/09 11:08 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Bottom line you can't prove that Chi healing doesn't exist over the internet no more then I can prove it does."

Sorry Neko but I do not have to prove anything. Unlike you, I am making no claims that might strike anyone as outlandish or against the laws of physics or other branches of science (eg medical science). You specifically make claims that kata and undetectable ki can heal illnesses, on the face of it a big thing to claim without any verifiable, scientific support. So it is for you to prove your claims, surely, not for me to prove a negative. If you cannot prove them as true, then how can you logically make them or believe in them?

B.

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#416577 - 03/10/09 11:12 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: oldman]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Quote:

By that definition can thought be considered energy or is thought, that directs energy?




Thoughts have been identified, measured and recorded as electrical impulses in the brain and their direct effect on parts of the body demonstrated so I think the answer is quite possibly, if you see them as manifestations of electrical energy. I guess you would have to ask a neuro surgeon...

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#416578 - 03/10/09 11:48 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Chhers for the reply, Chris:
Quote:

In my experiance, people who know this stuff well, can explain it in terms that make sense. The problem is that there often aren't Western equivlents for what is being explained (hence that Harvard scientist having to come up with his own term for this stuff) so the terms and definitions, even translations can be quite different.




I have never heard it explained well. It has always been a simular, vauge explaination. That there is no western translation does not account as to why it can not be explained. The concepts of zen, mushin etc which have no direct translation have been understood without too much difficulty i think.
Also there are scientists in China too!!! Surely Chinese scientist can understand? And as far as I know chi energy has still not been measured.

Quote:

The main thing with this topic is to seperate the charlatans from those who are actually skilled (a difficult thing to do).




If we can't even begin to understand what chi is, how can we spot a charlatan from a genuine?

Quote:

Also, if one were to write off the 'mysterious talk of energies' they would miss the entire point of what they are doing.




From a health perspective, they could still improve posture and get exercise in a fun environment, which for most is a massive step towards good health.

Neko:
Quote:

...Yoga exponents that can be submerged under water in a clear cubic for 30 minutes ro more.




Is this true? Are there any online links to this?

Quote:

I don't believe in magic though I know it exist




Could you clarify, does magic exist? Genuinly couldn't quite understand this paragraph. Cheers.

Quote:

Bottom line you can't prove that Chi healing doesn't exist over the internet no more then I can prove it does.




It is impossible to prove that it does not happen. Agreed. You could lend evidence to proving it does exist though. You mentioned in a post it can be measured through biochemistry?

Scenario:
1000 people doing tai chi. Both belive that in doing tai chi they will greatly improve their own health.
500 believes their health will improve as they are improving their chi, allowing a good flow and improving energy through breathing from the hara.
The other 500 believes their health will improve as they are improving their posture, improving general fitness and learning to breath to relax.
Same physical movements different belief. Would any of you expect one group to see a greater improvement in health, and why.


Edited by creative (03/10/09 11:49 AM)
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#416579 - 03/10/09 12:46 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"I don't believe in magic though I know it exist."

If you don't believe it, how can you then still "know magic exists" and why? This sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

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#416580 - 03/10/09 01:04 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

There is also a relatively recent video of medical doctors and physicists in the US wiring up so-called Chi Masters to test for any unusual energy when they claimed to be projecting chi.




How from that do you get that that proves 'chi' doesn't exist? All that proves is that those specific modalities may not be viable. That's it. There are other studies which DO show that modalities that work with the energy field to work. See below.


Quote:

Some of these practices are beneficial for reasons that can be explained by medical science, including placebo effect, amongst other things.




Some can be explained via placebo effect, others cannot. One major example being acupuncture. The World Health Organization in 2003 did a major study on acupuncture, including controlling for the placebo effect (by having some respondents having 'sham acupuncture' done to them). The findings were that acupuncture DOES indeed work for certain conditions, such as:

Adverse reactions to radiotherapy and/or chemotherapy
Allergic rhinitis (including hay fever)
Biliary colic
Depression (including depressive neurosis and depression following stroke)
Dysentery, acute bacillary
Dysmenorrhoea, primary
Epigastralgia, acute (in peptic ulcer, acute and chronic gastritis, and gastrospasm)
Facial pain (including craniomandibular disorders)
Headache
Hypertension, essential
Hypotension, primary
Induction of labour
Knee pain
Leukopenia
Low back pain
Malposition of fetus, correction of
Morning sickness
Nausea and vomiting
Neck pain
Pain in dentistry (including dental pain and temporomandibular dysfunction)
Periarthritis of shoulder
Postoperative pain
Renal colic
Rheumatoid arthritis
Sciatica
Sprain
Stroke
Tennis elbow

You can read more about this study here,if you like:

http://www.acupuncture-schools.us/national-institute-health-nih-acupuncture.cfm

So acupuncture works for certain things, but why? Barad, I would genuinely like you to provide a reason, as many scientist's are currently trying to figure it out. In other words, we can dissmiss 'chi' (as in the energetic field) all we like, but the fact remains that science itself CURRENTLY HAS NO TERMS TO EXPLAIN what is happening here. Think about the implications of that for awhile.

Does this mean we should just blindly accept everything written about 'chi'. No, I don't think so. I think that we should remain skeptical, but open minded, until futher research is conducted. The thing I find so disheartening about all this is how quick folks are to say "that is just the placebo effect", when it is not, and how quick they are to arrogantly make statements that TCM comes from "virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy", when many of the major methods of healing can be verified to work! Yes, TCM had total ignorance for WESTERN concepts of physiology and anatomy, but just as Western medicine has been ignornant regarding Eastern concepts of the body/mind.

Quote:

However it means that the TCM explanations for certain things reliant on a mystery, undetectable energy, Chi, are false.




I beleive I answered this above, but let me be clear that it absolutely does not mean that. It will only mean that when science can describe what is going on in these cases based on their current model and concept of the body (which they can't). What is gradually occuring is a major paradigm shift, not only in how the body is perceived, but also the mind (as I said regarding mindfullness practices being used succesfully to treat psychological conditions).

So what bothers me somewhat about your posts is your reductionary stance towards all of these things. You asked for evidence, and it has clearly been provided. Again, not that that evidence proves (or for the matter disproves) that chi exists, but that many of the modalities that are designed to specifically treat that energetic field DO WORK.

Yet you keep writting it off, either based on semantics ("that's not chi, its breath" even though I took pains to explain to you that you are creating a false dicotomy between the two).

Quote:

No you cannot. As I said yesterday, you are simply conveniently using Chi/ki to mean whatever you want it to mean, to suit your perspective.





No, I'm not. Yesterday I set out how all these things are interelated, now how about you speak to the actual thrust of my post, rather than parroting what you said yesterday.

Quote:

How can breath be considered energy by this?




Breath provides the fuel for the human system to function. As that Harvard study has shown breath directly relates to the health of the body's systems (which do have an electrical current btw). The heart in particular conducts electricity throughout the entire organism, and many of these methods (call it gTummo or qigong) have been shown to positively benefit the heart in ways the exercises such as running or weight lifting do not. Let's look again at what that Harvard study found gTummo to cheifly benefit:

Quote:

metabolism, breathing rate, heart rate, and blood pressure




So, if what you are looking for is mere proof that these systems do effect the energy (or electricity) of the human body (and mind), there you have it. Now, does this effect heal...the answer seems to be yes, again, here are some of the things that are positively effected:

Quote:

Benson and colleagues use it to treat anxiety, mild and moderate depression, high blood pressure, heartbeat irregularities, excessive anger, insomnia, and even infertility.




So let me lay it out in very simple terms. Qigong (let's call it that, though it is called different things because different cultures do have different languages after all), engenders what Dr.Benson calls the "relaxation response." This relaxation response primarily effects the bodies heart and cardiovascular system (the body's energy system). Due to this (the more efficient working of energy systems such as metabolism and heart) the body is able to heal itself from certain illnesses.

Further, those few who really work with these systems are able to do some fairly weird things that should kill them (such as bringing their core temperature up to what most consider a dangerous level).

--Chris



Edited by Ames (03/10/09 01:05 PM)
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#416581 - 03/10/09 01:58 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
creative Offline
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Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
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Ames said
Quote:

Some can be explained via placebo effect, others cannot. One major example being acupuncture. The World Health Organization in 2003 did a major study on acupuncture, including controlling for the placebo effect (by having some respondents having 'sham acupuncture' done to them).




Just had a quick look at the WHO review of accupuncture and under section 1.7 - Selection of clinical trial reports it states:

Quote:

On the other hand, negative results from such trials, in which both the genuine and sham acupuncture showed considerable therapeutic effects with no significant difference between them, can hardly be taken as evidence negating the effectiveness of acupuncture. In the latter case, especially in treatment of pain, most authors could only draw the conclusion that additional control studies were needed. Therefore, these reports are generally not included in this review.




Interesting findings here. I like the final pargraph:

http://www.badscience.net/2007/09/542/
Quote:

There is a fascinating irony here. While the flaky humanities graduate commentators in the media bang on about “scientism” and accuse doctors and scientists of being “reductionist”, while CAM therapists bang on about doctors being in the pocket of big pharma, and praise themselves for being “holistic” and “lifestyle oriented”… doctors seem to be the ones actually dishing out basic, sensible, evidence based non-technical lifestyle advice, and people are strangely resistant to hearing it.




This site also says a lot about the placebo effect.

Interesting though that the science/medical community does recognise these things even if the mechanisms at work are not fully understood. I believe you can get accupuncture and homeopathy on the NHS even though they are considered by most professionals to be placebo effects. People under estimate the power of placebo.


Edited by creative (03/10/09 02:03 PM)

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#416582 - 03/10/09 03:20 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

People under estimate the power of placebo.





I agree. But people also tend to catagorize anything outside of mainstream medicine as being a 'placebo' effect. Yet science still has difficultly figuring out exactly what is going on in these cases. How can a sugar pill work as well as an anti-depressent? How can a sham surgery work, in some cases, as well as a proper one? It is not only alternative practices that involve the placebo effect, but mainstream ones as well.

Quote:

Some believe the placebo effect is purely psychological. Irving Kirsch, a psychologist at the University of Connecticut, believes that the effectiveness of Prozac and similar drugs may be attributed almost entirely to the placebo effect. He and Guy Sapirstein analyzed 19 clinical trials of antidepressants and concluded that the expectation of improvement, not adjustments in brain chemistry, accounted for 75 percent of the drugs' effectiveness (Kirsch 1998). "The critical factor," says Kirsch, "is our beliefs about what's going to happen to us. You don't have to rely on drugs to see profound transformation." In an earlier study, Sapirstein analyzed 39 studies, done between 1974 and 1995, of depressed patients treated with drugs, psychotherapy, or a combination of both. He found that 50 percent of the drug effect is due to the placebo response.




In the end, I would like to see more studies on this matter (Eastern healing methods) done before I come to any conclusions--including whether or not the positive outcomes are a placebo effect or not. Certainly, according to the W.H.O. it does not only come down to this.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416583 - 03/10/09 07:37 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
creative Offline
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Quote:

I agree. But people also tend to catagorize anything outside of mainstream medicine as being a 'placebo' effect.




By 'out of mainstream' you tend to be reffering to 'alternative medicines'. As I read somewhere, it is alternative for a reason, it has not passed the rigors that conventional medicine must overcome.
If a truely amazing cure was found by say an accupunturist, I don't think it would be catagoriesed as placebo. Most things that are put in the placebo catagorey are so as that is the most reasonable explanation.

Quote:

Yet science still has difficultly figuring out exactly what is going on in these cases. How can a sugar pill work as well as an anti-depressent? How can a sham surgery work, in some cases, as well as a proper one?




There is a lot of information on placebo and how and why it works, how to increase the effect etc. Lots of the information comes from studying older form of medicine such as accupuncture, witch doctors and shamen.

Quote:

It is not only alternative practices that involve the placebo effect, but mainstream ones as well.




Without doubt. Difference is that mainstream medicines have been shown to work even without placebo.

Quote:

In the end, I would like to see more studies on this matter (Eastern healing methods) done before I come to any conclusions--including whether or not the positive outcomes are a placebo effect or not. Certainly, according to the W.H.O. it does not only come down to this.




The WHO seemed to me to be pretty careful in what they wrote with regard to how much accupuncture might be due to placebo. (IMO)

Have looked up some stuff online. I think this link, if you can be bothered to read it all gives a compelling case from a skeptics POV:

http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html
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#416584 - 03/10/09 09:04 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

As I read somewhere, it is alternative for a reason, it has not passed the rigors that conventional medicine must overcome.




In many cases, that is true.


Quote:

If a truely amazing cure was found by say an accupunturist, I don't think it would be catagoriesed as placebo.




Although I don't know about the truly amazing part, I've posted evidence that suggests that this a major body has conducted thorough research, controlling for the placebo effect, and found that there is something to acupuncture.

If I am wrong about that, please post a link to the study.

Quote:

There is a lot of information on placebo and how and why it works, how to increase the effect etc. Lots of the information comes from studying older form of medicine such as accupuncture, witch doctors and shamen.




In one sense, you are right as there are theories as to why it works that are pretty sound. On the other hand, exactly how the body creates a real healing response is still a pretty big question, and it was this aspect that I was speaking too. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

Quote:

Difference is that mainstream medicines have been shown to work even without placebo.




You've lost me here. If studies show that certain mainstream medicines are dependent on the placebo effect (such as anti-depressants) then how is what you've said accurate?

Quote:

The WHO seemed to me to be pretty careful in what they wrote with regard to how much accupuncture might be due to placebo.




Fair enough, but I see it differently, the W.H.O flat out stated that certain acupunture DOES HELP certain conditions (those that I listed).

Quote:

Have looked up some stuff online. I think this link, if you can be bothered to read it all gives a compelling case from a skeptics POV




I read it a lot of that site since you posted it. Some interesting information, some fairly common info, and some that I downright disagree with. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere where he addressed the W.H.O. study, but rather another specifically on back pain.

Anyway, I don't want my playing devil's advocate to be construed as my trying to prove chi or not. The truth is I am not a scientist, or a doctor of TCM. I do think that there seems to be some powerful healing methods at work in some of these ancient Eastern systems, and I don't think it is all related to what we commonly call the 'placebo' effect. So I'm interested in keeping an open mind to it, rather than (like that site does) 'debunking' all these practices because of a few that simply don't do much of anything. Doing so is as idiotic as calling any doctor who prescribes anti-depressants a quack (because they work largely based on the placebo effect).

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416585 - 03/11/09 05:48 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
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Posts: 427
Ames,

Sorry but i think you may be missing my point. I accept that some of these practices bring health benefits. Acupuncture certainly can in some cases, hence why in my earlier post I said that I had had it for shoulder pain with some beneficial effect. However studies on pain via acupuncture show that needling releases endorphins, so contrary to your statement it has been scientifically explained and some time ago in fact-I remember discussing just this endorphin release with my late uncle in the 1980s, an anesthesiologist (i.e. Western medical doctor) and acupuncturist, so it is nothing new. In the case of tooth repair, it is more likely hypnosis, where the patient is convinced he will feel no pain if he is needled first. None of this points to Chi or any undetectable energy in any way.

This is why you are getting it wrong:you have a strong belief in chi for superstitious reasons and you look for that to explain apparently amazing phenomena. Logically you need to look at cause and effect, not say chi is undoubtedly the cause because you believe it is or simply by pointing to effects that are explainable scientifically.

You have also widened chi to involve the entire body of alternative medicine. The thread concerns kata as a method of healing, for which there remains not a shred of evidence, any more than there does for chi, only strongly held belief.

B.

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#416586 - 03/11/09 10:15 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
oldman Offline
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Would you gentlemen consider physical therapy and or psychotherapy methods of healing?
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#416587 - 03/11/09 10:53 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

This is why you are getting it wrong:you have a strong belief in chi for superstitious reasons...




No, I don't. Where have I said anything like this?

Quote:

However studies on pain via acupuncture show that needling releases endorphins,




How do small needles stuck into the flesh triger an endorphin response? What I mean is, what specifically is happening to the body that needles stuck at SPECIFIC MERIDIAN LINES create an endorphin response?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416588 - 03/11/09 11:36 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Quote:

Quote:

This is why you are getting it wrong:you have a strong belief in chi for superstitious reasons...




No, I don't. Where have I said anything like this?

Quote:

However studies on pain via acupuncture show that needling releases endorphins,




How do small needles stuck into the flesh triger an endorphin response? What I mean is, what specifically is happening to the body that needles stuck at SPECIFIC MERIDIAN LINES create an endorphin response?

--Chris




Nothing happens that needs undetectable energy flows to explain it. That is what I mean by superstitious: you want mysterious chi energy to be the answer whatever happens, in the absence of all or any evidence. The effects are all physical and/or psychological.

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#416589 - 03/11/09 11:57 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
MattJ Offline
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#416590 - 03/11/09 12:28 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

Nothing happens that needs undetectable energy flows to explain it. That is what I mean by superstitious: you want mysterious chi energy to be the answer whatever happens, in the absence of all or any evidence. The effects are all physical and/or psychological.




No, I don't. Again, rather than strawmaning my argument, why don't you actually point out where I "want mysterious chi energy" to be the source? Never have I said such a thing. My overall point here has been that 'chi', as it is used for healing practices, is now finding correlatives in Western medicine. Much like 'pranja' was translated into 'chi' in the past, and with it took on cultural symbolism that pranja didn't have. Same goes for the crossover from chi to ki in Japan. Now in the West, we are using our matrix through which to explain how these exercises, mind techniques, and modalities like acupuncture can benefit people. In the end, 'chi' is just a term used to explain the why of how this stuff works. Now we are using Western terms to explain it. But either way, was is interesting to me, and actually useful, more than 'debunking' "supersitous beliefs" like some Maoist bully, is that much of these things DO work. Whether it's from the 'placebo' effect, or vague references to endorphins somehow being triggered, or even more vague allusions to it being"psychological", doesn't really change the fact that so much of these practices do work as they were intended: to cure an ailment, be it of the mind, or body.

The fact that they do work also undermines your earlier statement that these people had total ignorance as to physiology or anatomy...they obviously knew something if you yourself have benefited from the use of acupuncture (given to you by a medical doctor).

Further, you have yet to actually explain how needles stuck into someones body actually triggers the endorphines, and how that creates a healing response. Or are you purposely keeping it 'mysterious.'

For that matter, this word 'mysterious' has been thrown about far too much in this thread as a negative. So often thing are mysterious to us due to igorance, not because the thing itself is intrinsically 'mysterious'. If I took a random person off the street and sat them in a chair in a University lecture hall where a graduate level seminar in chemistry was occuring, I dare say they would find that fairly 'mysterious'.

I await you scientific explanation as to what exactly occurs when the needles are poked into someones skin, and how the endorphins are acted upon by that.

You're constant willingness to put words in my mouth rather than speak to ANY part of the post, to me, underlines your inablility to contribute anything of substance to this thread beyond hurling rhetorical slurs that I am supersitous. However, you're inability to actually approach this topic in a non-personal way speaks only to your close mindedness regarding it. How very unscientific.


--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416591 - 03/11/09 01:02 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
creative Offline
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Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Although I don't know about the truly amazing part, I've posted evidence that suggests that this a major body has conducted thorough research, controlling for the placebo effect, and found that there is something to acupuncture.

If I am wrong about that, please post a link to the study.




As mentioned in the WHO review controlling for placebo can be difficult. It has though been found in studies that have used sham acupuncture as a placebo that no significant difference exists between 'real and sham' accupuncture. My 2 previous links contained studies making this point. I can get the particular links if you could not see them.

Quote:

Quote:

Difference is that mainstream medicines have been shown to work even without placebo.




You've lost me here. If studies show that certain mainstream medicines are dependent on the placebo effect (such as anti-depressants) then how is what you've said accurate?




I too am no doctor! And I don't know about anti depressants. The difference is that if certain anti depressants are found not to be effective, this will be verified by research and either pulled or kept depending on results. I imagine there is research into this going on now. This is more of an example of things slipping through the net rather than being a general rule.
Also doctors may use the placebo effect to some extent, it was on the news over here about people going to the doctor with a cold and demanding antibiotics, which are ineffective against virus, and doctors giving them to patients.

Quote:

I read it a lot of that site since you posted it. Some interesting information, some fairly common info, and some that I downright disagree with. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere where he addressed the W.H.O. study, but rather another specifically on back pain.




Appologise. I ment for you only to read the article on on the page linked which was specifically an overview of studies in to accupuncture. This was not in refference to WHO, but gave a good (IMO) discussion on the effectiveness of accupuncture. I'd be interested to know what you disagreed with in that particular article?

Oldman:
Quote:

Would you gentlemen consider physical therapy and or psychotherapy methods of healing?




Yes. Or perhaps more accurately, methods to promote healing. I'm being overcautious as I'm expecting a 'Gotcha' reply Lol!!

Ames:
Quote:

What I mean is, what specifically is happening to the body that needles stuck at SPECIFIC MERIDIAN LINES create an endorphin response?




But Ames, Sham accupuncture has shown that subjects who undergo sham accupunture, i.e. where neddles were stuck in at so called non-meridian points showed the same response as those undergoing regular accupuncture. Surely this is damning evidence to those who belive the response is due to flow of ki in the meridians being linked to the benifits of accupunture.
Whats more, the effect has also been shown in cases where the subject only thought they'd had a needle put in them. Is this not massive evidence in support of placebo. Is this not evidence against the chi hypothesis?
Again links to these studies should be in the previous link provided.
Another problem is where are the meridians? Things need to get ever more inventive to support the chi hypothesis, when results can be explained through placebo.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416592 - 03/11/09 01:21 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
creative Offline
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Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

In the end, 'chi' is just a term used to explain the why of how this stuff works. Now we are using Western terms to explain it. But either way, was is interesting to me, and actually useful, more than 'debunking' "supersitous beliefs" like some Maoist bully




I disagree with you here. If the treatment is legitamate beyond placebo then it could be a very useful treatment. If we are to utilise it for medical purposes surely we should understand it. If that means pointing out parts (or all) of it is 'bunk' then how can that be a bad thing?
What other thousand year old practice has not been found wanting in some area, or found not to be improved upon. let alone still be useful.

Quote:

...is that much of these things DO work. Whether it's from the 'placebo' effect, or vague references to endorphins somehow being triggered, or even more vague allusions to it being"psychological", doesn't really change the fact that so much of these practices do work as they were intended: to cure an ailment, be it of the mind, or body.

The fact that they do work also undermines your earlier statement that these people had total ignorance as to physiology or anatomy...they obviously knew something if you yourself have benefited from the use of acupuncture (given to you by a medical doctor).




Disagree again here. Through placebo effect, witch doctors can 'cure' ailments, does not mean that they have an understanding of physiology or anatomy. I am not saying that the chinese did not know anything about anat&phys., but your arguement here is not logical.

Quote:

Further, you have yet to actually explain how needles stuck into someones body actually triggers the endorphines, and how that creates a healing response. Or are you purposely keeping it 'mysterious.'




You will not accept placebo as an answer.

Quote:

If I took a random person off the street and sat them in a chair in a University lecture hall where a graduate level seminar in chemistry was occuring, I dare say they would find that fairly 'mysterious'.




But you could explain chemestry with strong evidence to back up each and every claim made.

"I await you scientific explanation as to what exactly occurs when the needles are poked (or not poked) into someones skin( at meridians or not at meridians), and how the endorphins are acted upon by that."
_________________________
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#416593 - 03/11/09 01:22 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Creative,
Quote:


Yes. Or perhaps more accurately, methods to promote healing. I'm being overcautious as I'm expecting a 'Gotcha' reply Lol!!




If you are willing to consider physical and psychotherapy as
"methods to promote healing" would you be able to consider the practice of kata as a "method to promote healing"?
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#416594 - 03/11/09 01:23 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

My 2 previous links contained studies making this point. I can get the particular links if you could not see them.





I read them, and I think they do make a good point regarding the effect of placebo. However, I don't take that as an indebtment of acupuncture, just as I don't take those studies that showed the placebo effect occuring for sham surgeries as an overall indictment of surgery itself.

Quote:

And I don't know about anti depressants. The difference is that if certain anti depressants are found not to be effective, this will be verified by research and either pulled or kept depending on results. I imagine there is research into this going on now. This is more of an example of things slipping through the net rather than being a general rule.





That site you linked me too has some good articles on this subject as well. The thing about this is at this point most doctors are still prescribing anti-depressents, even though it has been proven that a placebo works just as well.
Quote:

Also doctors may use the placebo effect to some extent, it was on the news over here about people going to the doctor with a cold and demanding antibiotics, which are ineffective against virus, and doctors giving them to patients.





So the placebo effect also plays a major role in modern medicine, which is why I don't see it as an indictment against acupuncture that placebo may play a role in certain uses of it.

Quote:

Appologise. I ment for you only to read the article on on the page linked which was specifically an overview of studies in to accupuncture.




Don't apologise, it's an interesting site. Thanks for the link.

Quote:

This was not in refference to WHO, but gave a good (IMO) discussion on the effectiveness of accupuncture.




See that's where I disagree, because the W.H.O study is the biggest one done so far on the effects of acupuncture, with the least amount of problems in the study itself. The other studies, as you have pointed out, are pretty flawed, which is why I'm speaking of the W.H.O. one. Which also showed me, who didn't believe in the efficacy of acupuncture at the time, that maybe there was something to it, because the W.H.O is a pretty reputable organization and doesn't tend to go with quackery.

Quote:

But Ames, Sham accupuncture has shown that subjects who undergo sham accupunture, i.e. where neddles were stuck in at so called non-meridian points showed the same response as those undergoing regular accupuncture.




Particular studies did, yes. As I said, I think the placebo effect is powerful, and many, many modalities in health care seem to be effected by it--not just acupuncture. But the W.H.O study, which was the largest and most well funded, found this not to be the case in ALL acupuncture 'remedies'--though did find it played a role in some.

Quote:

Whats more, the effect has also been shown in cases where the subject only thought they'd had a needle put in them. Is this not massive evidence in support of placebo. Is this not evidence against the chi hypothesis?





Again, to me it is evidence that the placebo plays a large role in some acupuncture therapies. The thing is, that there are other studies which say, as Barad alluded to, that some acupuncture treatments create a endorphin response in the body. The thing is, and I could very well be wrong about this, but this is what I have read on the subject, no one is quite sure as the HOW or WHY the endorphins are triggered. Placebo is one possibility, but, again, studies which controlled for the placebo found this to not always be the case.

Quote:

Things need to get ever more inventive to support the chi hypothesis, when results can be explained through placebo.




I totally agree with you. I think the tradional chi hypothesis is pretty outdated at this point, and I'm glad that these modalities are being put into newer terminology. Certainly it helps me understand it better.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416595 - 03/11/09 01:42 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
oldman Offline
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Boy, you young fellas sure like to type a lot.
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#416596 - 03/11/09 02:11 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"'chi', as it is used for healing practices, is now finding correlatives in Western medicine."

It is not because Chi does not exist and cannot be demonstrated.

"'chi' is just a term used to explain the why of how this stuff works."

It explains nothing. It is a vague, malleable, nonsense term and an incorrect explanation of physical effects for the same reason, that it does not exist. There are no such energy fields as chi proponents insist. If there were, they would have been identified like any other form of energy.

"If I took a random person off the street and sat them in a chair in a University lecture hall where a graduate level seminar in chemistry was occuring, I dare say they would find that fairly 'mysterious'."

The difference is that ultimately there is a scientific explanation for chemical processes, unlike chi, which is a fantasy concept.


"I await you scientific explanation as to what exactly occurs when the needles are poked into someones skin, and how the endorphins are acted upon by that."

Not being a doctor, I am not in a position to do this in detail. To ask me for this again misses the point-it has been identified again and again as a testable, physical reaction (unlike chi ever). In any event the doctors I have spoken to seem to have a logical and scientifically proveable basis for their understanding of the process of releasing endorphins, amongst many other things. Unlike chi which is unproved and unproveable, sorry to be boring but because it does not exist.

Because you believe in something which does not exist, I can only find that highly irrational and ridiculous. If I were to speculate as to why you believe in it, well a lot of people in MA are in awe of Eastern philosophy and culture and are looking for something different to their own experience. Maybe that is your situation, maybe not. maybe you would like to think that Aikido or tai Chi or whatever can give you special powers. Sorry but they cannot.

Whilst you are getting upset, you have failed in any way to offer the tiniest reason why anyone should believe that chi exists or why anyone would believe that kata heals.

"How very unscientific."

You believe in chi, something that ranks in credibility alongside the tooth fairy. Yet you insist it exists. What is that if not superstition? You offer no science to back up chi (how could you, it is nonsense!) and get upset when you are called on it.


Edited by Barad (03/11/09 02:21 PM)

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#416597 - 03/11/09 02:15 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"But Ames, Sham accupuncture has shown that subjects who undergo sham accupunture, i.e. where neddles were stuck in at so called non-meridian points showed the same response as those undergoing regular accupuncture. Surely this is damning evidence to those who belive the response is due to flow of ki in the meridians being linked to the benifits of accupunture.
Whats more, the effect has also been shown in cases where the subject only thought they'd had a needle put in them. Is this not massive evidence in support of placebo. Is this not evidence against the chi hypothesis?"

Creative, you will never convince a True Believer-Chi is real dammit!

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#416598 - 03/11/09 02:19 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"no one is quite sure as the HOW or WHY the endorphins are triggered."

So if we accept the above statement (I do not necessarily but let's say) clearly undetectable chi energy is the clear and logical explanation for endorphin release! Very woolly thinking based upon your desire for chi to be real and nothing else.

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#416599 - 03/11/09 07:17 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

You believe in chi, something that ranks in credibility alongside the tooth fairy. Yet you insist it exists.




No I don't. This is the last time I will say this. SHOW ME ONE INSTANCE WHERE I SAID THIS or stop saying it.

Quote:

Very woolly thinking based upon your desire for chi to be real and nothing else.




I have no desire for chi to exist. At the moment, all I desire is for your reading comprehension to go up, and you disingeniousness to stop.

Again, please show me ONE INSTANCE where I say chi exists. Good luck, because you won't find it. Instead of debating anything with even one bit of intelligence you have spent your last 5 posts insulting me, putting words in my mouth, and misrepresenting what I have said, for reasons I don't understand. You strawman me by stating that "chi is the most logical reason," when not only have I NOT said that, but have gone to great pains to express my not wanting what I am saying to be construed that way. And all this is a clever way of getting around that fact that you have not one shred of objective information to add to this topic beyond anecdote, and vague references to 'studies' that I'm sure you've never read first hand. So what is interesting to me especially about this is that you accuse me of being superstitious etc. yet it is YOU who has not provided one shred of anything like objective evidence to backup your argument. Meanwhile my point, that I have made time and again is that I prefer to be open minded about the potential for certain Eastern practices to help certain conditions, that is all I have been trying to say.

You have to audacity to say to another poster:

Quote:

Contrary to your claims, it is not "all about belief", it is about not making supernatural and metaphysical claims that you cannot be back up. And getting offended when someone calls you on it.




Yet you have yet to back up a SINGLE ONE OF YOUR CLAIMS! You vaguely reference there being a perfectly rational explanation for everything, and that science has discovered the answer, yet you are unable to tell me BECAUSE YOU DON'T ACTUALLY know what the answer is! In this way, your abstracted, vague solution of 'endorphins' has been accepted by you without one bit of CRITICAL THINKING and is as shrouded in mystery as someone's calling it 'chi'.

That's it I'm done with stooping now, and done with replying to anymore of your stupid and tired bait.

Thanks for ruining an interesting topic with your irrational close mindedness. Irrational because you seemingly have no ability to actually argue a point with facts, instead you are attempting to defame me personally. As I said before, how very unscientific of a person who asks others to "prove it."

--Chris


Edited by Ames (03/11/09 07:42 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416600 - 03/12/09 05:49 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Fine Ames, we agree then. Chi/ki is a fantasy that does not actually exist. If that is your position, then I take it all back and apologise for causing offence.

B.

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#416601 - 03/12/09 08:07 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: oldman]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Oldman,
Quote:

If you are willing to consider physical and psychotherapy as
"methods to promote healing" would you be able to consider the practice of kata as a "method to promote healing"?




What has the practice of kata and healing got to do with this threa.......oh....

I've already said said that I think it can. I was disagreeing with neko in regards to how it may help. i.e. through exercise explainable through 'western methods' vs directing ki. Also I don't believe the more fantastic claims of healing.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416602 - 03/12/09 01:02 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Fine Ames, we agree then. Chi/ki is a fantasy that does not actually exist.




Chi is a fantasy for those who think it is a fantasy, something real for those who believe it's real, and a useful metaphor/abstraction for some who wish to make use of Eastern healing practices and certain martial traditions, but maintain some critical objectivity. Here is a nice quote that succintly explains the later view:

Quote:

"A few Chinese scientists we met maintained that although Qi is merely a metaphor, it is still a useful physiological abstraction (e.g., that the related concepts of Yin and Yang parallel modern scientific notions of endocrinologic and metabolic feedback mechanisms). They see this as a useful way to unite Eastern and Western medicine."




So, like religion, people should choose what works best for them, but hopefully also critically think about what they are being told or reading.

Thanks for the apology.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (03/12/09 01:03 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416603 - 03/12/09 05:26 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Fine Ames, we agree then. Chi/ki is a fantasy that does not actually exist. If that is your position, then I take it all back and apologise for causing offence.

B.




That's your statement but as the consul has stated Chi/Ki can be defined in modern or near scienctfic terms to the point that it can be quite simple as simple as taking and control your breathing.

I agree closer with the people that understand its purpose and meaning without trying to mysticfy it.

As for trying to make someone belife something they don't want to believe in, I don't think that is the purpose of this discussion it is the airing of views. The Burden of proof is not on either party in the fact that we will keep doing what has worked and is best for us.

One debater brought the effect of needle pericing on a chemicail release then what is the stimuli for Accupressure or massage which if done properly can revjuevnate and stimulate muscle and blood flow to certain parts of the body promoting health.

As Magic existing there are studies in criminalogy of groups that base their existance on Black and White Magic. It is defined in the webster dictionary. It is as real to these believers enough to do some terrible things. Reality is based on what one precieve as real, ask any unsuspected runaway/victim stakes to a table duing one of their sacrifices. In this case what you don't believe in can hurt you.

In the end this might have turned into a Tomatoe or Tomato debate, slice it up and make it work.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#416604 - 03/13/09 05:32 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Chi is a fantasy for those who think it is a fantasy, something real for those who believe it's real."

No, sorry, go back a good few posts and you will find me saying to Neko what I repeat to you. "Real" is an absolute, not a subjective concept. Do you understand the concepts of "real" and "unreal"? They are not malleable at your whim. You really seem unable to grasp this very simple piece of basic, logical thought. Chi is not real even if you or others think it is real.

B.

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#416605 - 03/13/09 05:47 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Chi/Ki can be defined in modern or near scienctfic terms."

Absolute nonsense-chi has never, ever been demonstrated to exist. You can define it all you like (very loosely in most cases to mean whatever you want) but if you mean to say "controlling your breathing", why not say it, instead of resorting to mythological concepts of TCM?

"Burden of proof is not on either party."

Wrong again-if you assert the existence of something, the burden is clearly on you to back up your assertion. You cannot because it does not exist and is therefore not demonstrable under scientfic conditions. If you make an assertion that appears on the face of it supernatural and unrecognised by the laws of physics, then physics does not have to prove you wrong. Physics never made any claims to the existence or otherwise of ki until TCM practicioners/martial artists suggested it. It is they who should therefore prove it or shut up. Sorry Neko, again you understand nothing much about reason or logic.

"Reality is based on what one precieve as real."

This is nonsense, as I have pointed out to you before. See my answer to Ames on the same point. If I erroneously believe that I am a ten foot tall pineapple, it does not make it in any way real. Do you see?

"we will keep doing what has worked and is best for us."

Obviously I agree with this-do what you like. But if you happen to hold crazy, supernatural views (like the unproveable existence of ki) then you can expect them to be disbelieved and ridiculed on occasion.

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#416606 - 03/13/09 10:35 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
456 - "Chi/Ki can be defined in modern or near scientific terms."

Barad - Absolute nonsense-chi has never, ever been demonstrated to exist. You can define it all you like (very loosely in most cases to mean whatever you want) but if you mean to say "controlling your breathing", why not say it, instead of resorting to mythological concepts of TCM?

456 - This is just one of the sceintific examination of Chi. Just as there are theories on Black Holes.

Some think it is "electrical" energy; others believe its "magnetic" type of energy, while some others think it is heat or other type of energy.

But there IS Chi.

I am getting most of my current information from Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. He has some Serious Credentials!
He studied Shaolin White Crane kung-fu, Mastered Tai Chi, and a bunch of other martial arts. He has an M.S. in Physics from the National Taiwan University. He also earned a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering from Purdue. And has his own publishing company with Many books to his name.

Plus I'm working with some practical knowledge I have learned from my Kung-Fu training, and the Masters and advanced students around me.


"According to Chinese medical and Chi Kung society, the Original Jieng which you obtained from your parents stays in your Kidneys after your birth. This Original Jieng is the source of your life and growth. This Original Jieng is converted continuously ito Chi which moves down to the Lower Dan Tien, and stays stored there in its residence for future use. The Dan Tien is located on the Conception Vessel -- one of the 8 Chi "reservoirs" in the body which regulate the Chi flow to other channels.
Dan Tien Chi is considered "Water Chi" "
=========================================================
Barad you argue with this Doctor, just an example of the study of Chi. Open your mind come out of the mist of delusional self riighetousness Barad doesn't know what best for everyone, take your medication.

456 - "Burden of proof is not on either party."

Barad wrote - Wrong again-if you assert the existence of something, the burden is clearly on you to back up your assertion. You cannot because it does not exist and is therefore not demonstrable under scientfic conditions. If you make an assertion that appears on the face of it supernatural and unrecognised by the laws of physics, then physics does not have to prove you wrong. Physics never made any claims to the existence or otherwise of ki until TCM practicioners/martial artists suggested it. It is they who should therefore prove it or shut up. Sorry Neko, again you understand nothing much about reason or logic.

456 - I don't have to prove anything to you just as in life each person must take the journey into the realms of Martial art by themself. What you believe and have experience only have merit to you likewise my experience are different. Though we see things differently I will keep doing what I believe and you will keep call things crazy because you are too ignorant or close minded to understand them, keep left hand boxing there is s higher art. If it works for me its proven, thats my reality.

456 - "Reality is based on what one precieve as real."

Barad wrote - This is nonsense, as I have pointed out to you before. See my answer to Ames on the same point. If I erroneously believe that I am a ten foot tall pineapple, it does not make it in any way real. Do you see?


456 - Before the theory of Realitivty they called Albert crazy these were unproven views. Now the Nuclear energy can be harness for the most common of uses. As in the most powerful weapons or simple-ly just for for heating. Reality is based on what we believe, because it becomes whats real to us. Just as arguing with you and you telling me what I need to believe or prove is a like a probably journey to a Black hole, nothing but darkenss no possibilty of anything to exist that you have not read of. I pity your wife or sufficent other you only see what you want, theres a term for that Psychotic schizophrenic, now who sounds crazy.


456 - "we will keep doing what has worked and is best for us."

Barad - Obviously I agree with this-do what you like. But if you happen to hold crazy, supernatural views (like the unproveable existence of ki) then you can expect them to be disbelieved and ridiculed on occasion.





456 - Again you make believe stating something that I have denied over and over Chi theory is not magicail or supernatural it is natural and nature. I feel you are entitled to your b/w reality. As for ridulcue if that was your intention, You only state your simple minded psychotic schizophrenic opinions, several debaters and I keep telling you that you mis-quote them but you continue to state a diminished or loss of contact with reality, or whats being stated. I will just consider the source.


Edited by Neko456 (03/13/09 10:41 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#416607 - 03/13/09 11:07 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Some think it is "electrical" energy; others believe its "magnetic" type of energy, while some others think it is heat or other type of energy."

Read my old posts-real energy is identifiable and measurable, not least electricity and magnetic energy. Chi is not.

What Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming does is excellent from a martial perspective. I have had some of his books for decades. However as a practicioner of TCM and chi kung, he starts from the position that chi exists and works backwards. You appear to do the same.

"You only state your simple minded psychotic schizophrenic opinions."

Er, if you say so but both of me disagree with you.

I accept that you are totally sold on chi/ki. However from my perspective you are ignorant and hold views that deserve only ridicule. Your abuse and aggressive language is highly amusing-you are evidently overcome by frustration because I do not buy your fairytale BS. Hey, I think I saw some ki behind you, see if you can catch it in your hand...

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#416608 - 03/13/09 11:36 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Neko456]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Hey Neko,
Was wondering if you could use the quote function or at least quotation marks when quoting from outside sources as it is difficult decifer what is you and what is referenced. eg. http://hypography.com/forums/philosophy-and-humanities/6125-chi.html . Cheers.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416609 - 03/13/09 11:40 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Barad - Your abuse and aggressive language is highly amusing-you are evidently overcome by frustration because I do not buy your fairytale BS. Hey, I think I saw some ki behind you, see if you can catch it in your hand... .



456 -- I just consider the source. I do appauld you on your strong Dogmatic belifes, but without medication you are trapped aren't you.

You should be a Lawyer we need one more just like you.

I'm standing by, a pity a mind is a sad thing to waste.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#416610 - 03/13/09 11:47 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
The effects of certain activities eg accupuncture can be debated as there is a clear understanding of what accupuncture is, and we could look at evidence. While we didn't totally agree, we could have a somewhat reasoned debate.

If you want to debate the existance of chi, while it is not on topic, some solid proposals of definitions need to be put forward.

I don't think even the IMA forum has a definition for chi, it certainly isn't a sticky, so it might be difficult!
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#416611 - 03/13/09 12:23 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Barad]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

No, sorry, go back a good few posts and you will find me saying to Neko what I repeat to you. "Real" is an absolute, not a subjective concept. Do you understand the concepts of "real" and "unreal"?




Okay, and what makes something 'real'? This might seem overly semantic, but the abstract concepts of religion are felt strongly enough by the believers to create effects in reality. In other words, to some God may be a 'fantasy', but even so the concept of God has had real effect on the world. I suggest you read William James' 'The Varities of Religious Experiance'. Here is a quote from that work that speaks both of 'absolutes' and 'abstractions' (or as you call it 'fantasy'):

Quote:

This absolute determinability of our mind by abstractions is one of the cardinal facts in our human constitution. Polarizing and magnetizing us as they do, we turn towards them and from them, we seek them, hold them, hate them, bless them, just as if they were so many concrete beings. And beings they are, beings as real in the realm which they inhabit as the changing things of sense are in the realm of space.




Let me give you an example, also from that book. Paul of Tarsus was said to have a vision while walking down the road one day, of Christ. Now many people who consider themselves 'rationalists' dismiss this visionary experiance as just an epiliptic seizure. But, as James points out, it doesn't matter whether it was from epilipsy or not, because that is missing the point. The point is that it was real enough to Paul to create modern Christianity, which has an extremely influential (for better or worse) effect on the world ever since. As James points out, certainly what Paul felt is different from what most people who have an epiliptic seizure feel, because they don't generally tend to radically alter the shape of human history. So Paul's vision of Christ, in this sense, was as 'real' as anything else.

The same goes for believers in chi. When a believer in chi holds the concept to such esteem that it alters the course of his life, and the lives of others, then the concept/abstraction/fantasy DOES have power in reality, can be felt, and thus becomes real.

Quote:

Chi is not real even if you or others think it is real.





I don't think chi is real. I do think the concept of chi is real, and that that concept has real world effect.

Of course, I can see how someone who deals in faulty 'absolutes' couldn't see this. Since you seem to like to announce yourself of a lover of science, I wonder how much you have read about quantum physics on the subject of absolutes? Here is succint statement as to why the notion of absolutes, beyond helping to measure things, is a faulty one:

Quote:

The standard interpretation of quantum physics assumes that the quantum world is characterized by absolute indeterminism and that quantum systems exist objectively only when they are being measured or observed.




Barad, I would think someone as knowlegable in science as you seem to perceive yourself to be(what with your constant arrogant tone) would understand such a basic concept as this.

Good day.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#416612 - 03/13/09 01:35 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Ames]
giarmyty Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 1
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Kata is a great form of healing and rehab. There are 3 katas I can think of off hand that are great to work on. Nan Dan sho, Ten sho, and Shudi sho , are all breath retention katas that make you use good form, good posture, and gather strength and focus. When run properly can help the student running the kata gain better control on the body which in turn helps with any imbalances. Breath retention is a basic form of meditation. These katas are basic meditation with movement.

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#416613 - 03/13/09 02:45 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: giarmyty]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
ok guys, time out - I am moving to forms section and I would like for you to all keep a little more on topic.

Please avoid the religious references, not relevant and can cause further issues which don't assist the topic.

We can also remember to keep things civil and not insulting to each other, it's close to being locked but lets try and run the topic a little more.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#416614 - 03/13/09 11:43 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Jim: good point. plus what does chi and spiritual beliefs got to do with kata as it relates to claimed healing properties?


to the thread:
I think everyone would agree that moving around each day is healthier than sitting on a couch all day, correct?

so of course kata (which qualifies into the category of 'moving around'), is more beneficial to your health than using that same time to sit on a park bench and smoke cigars.

no one could possibly disagree with that using any reasonable level of common sense. The question then becomes which type of 'moving around' gives the most amount of health benefit.

The only way you could objectively measure something like that is by compairing statistics. anyone have the stats showing that kata or tai chi practitioners live longer and healthier than someone who swims in a pool every day?

If it was definitively shown that swimming for 30 minutes per day has the equal long term health benefit as 2 hours of kata practice a day, would people THEN associate magical healing properties to tredding water? No, they wouldn't. which illustrates the bias of the human psyche thinking 'A' is better than 'B' just because they want it to be true.

it's really a non-argument of biased opinions unless people start bringing credible statistics to the table in these types of threads.

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#416615 - 03/18/09 12:37 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: creative]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Hey Neko,
Was wondering if you could use the quote function or at least quotation marks when quoting from outside sources as it is difficult decifer what is you and what is referenced. eg. http://hypography.com/forums/philosophy-and-humanities/6125-chi.html . Cheers.





456 - Thanks for pulling the whole debate from the outside source, my interest was not to show the detailes because it would mean nothing to the debater. My intent was to dispute his absolute reply "There are no studies on Chi to prove it exist", there are just as many Scienitific examinaion by accredited PHDs or people of scholarly degrees as not on the topic of Chi/Ki existing.

Barad thinks in absolute terms he owns this material but still can say its nonsense and that this information doesn't exist. He even defines everybodies reality so that its nonsense if it doesn't match his own.
Most people believe slightly different based on their experience. I also dispute his claim that I'm aggressive in these debates I do believe in what I say but don't mind being disagree with. I don't like calling people crazy just because they disagree and have different experience on the topic. But if you can give you can get, such is the way of the MA.

Just as I was trying to say I don't believe in Vodoo/Black magic but I know it exist and is some peoples reality/life. I understand the grey areas in life, it doesn't make them crazy just different views then my own. But maybe someone I'd perfer to give some distance to so far as socail gatherings. That is my option but they can believe what they want. They just can't burrow my comb or brush.

I still hold to the view that Sanchin and Ten Sho unlocks the door to Qi Gong and Chi building for better health and use of short range energy, nothing magical about it.


Edited by Neko456 (03/18/09 12:50 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#416616 - 03/18/09 02:15 PM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: oldman]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
I believe in Crystal Lite, cause I believe in ME.
_________________________
www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#428712 - 07/29/10 08:26 AM Re: Kata: Method of healing/post-recovery? [Re: Prizewriter]
Terri63 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 4
Loc: NJ
Prizewriter--

I definitely agree w/ the fact that karate can only be very GOOD for balance..I too have had my health improve in BIG ways since starting karate..im a total newbie...white belt,,started 3 months ago...what a CHALLENGE! would not trade it for the world! Ive a had a metabolic disease all my life ..which shows neurological symptoms...my balance... among other things has improved drastically...I couldnt agree more...


Edited by Terri63 (07/29/10 08:28 AM)

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