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#415433 - 02/05/09 12:00 PM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: Richard_Norris]
TheKen Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/06
Posts: 45
Well I went last night. Clean dojo, nice instructor, rates reasonable, and well the typical things one would expect from an Aikido dojo for a basics class based on some research.

Sorry this isn't the greatest review. I saw nothing bad, most everything was as expected to good. Honestly it is hard to really pick out everything when you are watching from the side with 2 toddlers and an infant in tow!

Ken

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#415434 - 02/19/09 02:00 AM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: TheKen]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
I can help clarify. I was directed to study w/ Oshima Sensei when now Shihan Minoru Oshima was sent to America as Instructor for the Aikido Association, he served as Master Tohei's uchideshi in the Ki Society and now is Founder of Kodokai Aikido (Ki Aikido). There is also The Federation.
Federation Aikido hard (and effective)-Aikido Association softer-Kodokai soft. Ask potential instructors time in training and if they have a lineage. It is easy to be more effective w/ harder Aikido (techniques effective as they would tend to disable)-Ki Aikido harder to make effective as rapidly (read longer time training) but as The Sensei Oshima Sensei trained and having taken ukemi from them it will be effective (Proof in Pudding, Oshima Sensei trained correctional and police officers as a consultant, his Technique works) also he would mingle the hard Federation and counterpoise it to Ki Aikido, the difference was one of an effective tech that by nature damaged vs Ki aikido where a minor variation in wrist/elbow/shoulder tech had less chance to damage, he seemed to always ensure we knew how to properly damage and then say "but that is not Aiki" (e.g. kote gaeshe in knife disarm, he would show us how poor uke "accidentally" severed his own carotid during technique, pause and say "but that is not aiki", continue tech to breakfall and shoulder pin to strip...oops the knife slipped severing uke spine, "but..") all techniques were shown as joint opposing and so potentially destructive then demonstrate the slight variation in position which was as effective but had less chance to damage. Oshima Sensei I believe felt we should be able to execute either, situation dependent but wished us to be inclined to display mercy if warranted, why shred some slow drunks wrist and elbow, hes drunk soft will suffice, Shihan Oshima is truly a Master of his craft after 30 yrs. All Aikido share blending, harmony, becoming the calm eye of the hurricane. but to defend and not hurt or be hurt is a longer practice. Coming to him from rather aggressive karate made my training harder, Choose style and instructor wisely, cruel attitude is passed on reverence to do no harm is also passed on. I truly dont know but would have to guess breathing and ki exercises more pronounced in Ki Society. theres more if you ask, but this is enough. In 20ish years I have been blessed to work with 3 Masters, great Instructors are there perhaps one meets a Master when the time is right.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#422381 - 09/17/09 12:24 PM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: karl314285]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I thought I'd re-open an older Thread rather than start a new one.

I am hoping that the Aikidoka will be able to explain to me and help me understand my findings below

Question: I have dabbled in Aikido several times (the longest being 9 months (ungraded)) but As a Karate Ka I can't see the effectiveness of the style. I understand that Aikido is considered a deadly art.

I found during my brief training so many weaknesses in some of the techniques we practiced.

Not too sure on the names but quite a lot of the techniques are from wrist grabs etc. I found that if I just "let go" then the technique wouldn't work or if I turned with the defender then again the technique wouldn't work.

I also found the "offering" of the hand a bit strange something I definately would not do in a month of Sundays in a real situation.

Just some questions and observations I have, I still think the art is a wonderful style I've even put some Flyers of the Aikido Dojo up at my place of work along side my Karate Dojo's flyers. I think its a shame I can't practice Aikido as I disagree with so many of the techniques.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#422384 - 09/17/09 02:13 PM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
We're on dangerous ground here Dobbersky so I'll tread lightly... last thing we need is another "Aikido sux/no it doesn't" thread.

In my opinion, Aikido trains and teaches body skill. By that I mean it teaches you to move in a certain way. Many of the "techniques" of Aikido are designed to help you learn this body skill in an easier way. They are not like kihon kumite or bunkai in karate, where literally the techniques are the method of defense. The "techniques" of Aikido are a method of teaching particular movement of the body. Once you've got that down, you'll be able to find all sorts of ways to deal with things.

For example, look at Roy Dean. He is a black belt in BJJ and Aikido. He has managed to incorporate his the bodyskill (the movement) of Aikido along with his BJJ to great success in Sub Wresltling competitions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK-K4ia26...&playnext=1

Aikido Body Skill + Grappling

If someone is telling you that uke grabbing the wrist (a movement which replicates someone reaching for your sword) is a directly applicative technique, they don't know what they are doing IMO.

Same goes for Taiji. Here is a great clip of a Taiji teacher in the US. He uses his Taiji bodyskill to help him perform/react in a more functional way. In this clip, he discusses how he uses his body skill (Taiji) to help generate power in punching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkO7wuCSBYA

Another thing Taiji and Aikido have in common is the lack of good teachers (heck, decent teachers). In Northern Ireland, there are about 20 places you can learn Aikido. Through seminars and what not, I have met just about everyone who teaches. Of those 20 head teachers, there is a decent teacher, and another teacher is pretty good. The rest... well, if you can't say something nice...

Based on that, you have a 1 in 10 chance of finding a decent/good Aikido teacher, so good luck!

NB I'm not a mod, but Dobbersky specifically asked AIKIDOKA. If you are not an AIKIDOKA, past or present, please take it elsewhere as a courtesy. Thanks.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#422387 - 09/17/09 05:52 PM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
We're on dangerous ground here Dobbersky so I'll tread lightly... last thing we need is another "Aikido sux/no it doesn't" thread.
.....................................

Based on that, you have a 1 in 10 chance of finding a decent/good Aikido teacher, so good luck!

NB I'm not a mod, but Dobbersky specifically asked AIKIDOKA. If you are not an AIKIDOKA, past or present, please take it elsewhere as a courtesy. Thanks.


Prizewriter-san

Appologies if my post appeared derogatory. I tried to write it without causing offence.

My Post was one looking for answers and who better to answer questions about Aikido than Aikidoka.

I wouldn't put up flyers for my local Aikido Dojo if I was being derogatory.

I read somewhere that when Kano Sensei (founder of Judo) saw an exhibition of Aikido he expressed "Aikido was the purest form of Judo" or something like that.

I have 3-4 books on Aikido and enjoy reading them, the style I practice has Nage Kata devised by a Aikido Yudansha that Ashihara Kancho knew.

Thank you for your understanding and again my sincere appologies for offending anyone
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#422390 - 09/18/09 03:37 AM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: Dobbersky]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
I thought I'd re-open an older Thread rather than start a new one.

I am hoping that the Aikidoka will be able to explain to me and help me understand my findings below

Question: I have dabbled in Aikido several times (the longest being 9 months (ungraded)) but As a Karate Ka I can't see the effectiveness of the style. I understand that Aikido is considered a deadly art.

I found during my brief training so many weaknesses in some of the techniques we practiced.

Not too sure on the names but quite a lot of the techniques are from wrist grabs etc. I found that if I just "let go" then the technique wouldn't work or if I turned with the defender then again the technique wouldn't work.

I also found the "offering" of the hand a bit strange something I definately would not do in a month of Sundays in a real situation.

Just some questions and observations I have, I still think the art is a wonderful style I've even put some Flyers of the Aikido Dojo up at my place of work along side my Karate Dojo's flyers. I think its a shame I can't practice Aikido as I disagree with so many of the techniques.
Dobbersky,
It is actually a more common problem than you realize. The problem is people tend to come to the art and start to poke holes in what they see, without really fully appreciating the art for what the art is really showing/teaching. The other problem is that people equate "martial art" with something I call "aesthetic physical effectiveness" - IOW, if it doesn't look "martial", it can't possibly be effective. People tend to superimpose a fixed perception of martial effectiveness upon the art, which is in fact completely defensive in nature.

And of course, if you decide to spontaneously change the premise for a technique, then it's obviously not going to work, because your partner will be forced to do something different. OTOH, once you understand that Aikido has NO techniques, just like all other MA at progressively higher levels of sophistication.

Seeing the apparent technical flaws (or perhaps what may be perceived as teaching flaws) is actually a good thing, but not at the expense of learning what the technique is supposed to be teaching. Quite often, there is a disparity between actual martial application and technique initially, but as you begin to understand the technique, you will begin to see where the possibilities lie, in terms of effective and sometimes deadly application. 9 months (training X times a week) is certainly not long enough to fully appreciate this.

Fundamentally speaking, Aikido shares a common technical base with jujitsu - many of the wrist techniques can be found in your garden variety jujitsu. Many similar techniques for locking, striking and throwing can also be found in kempo, karate and various Chinese MA - simply because they are based on the same, if not similar, principles.

So, my suggestion would be to not focus too much on the techniques themselves, and to look at the principles of the techniques instead. Martial effectiveness comes from understanding the principles, AND being able to apply such principles dynamically. Technique is what happens when these 2 things come together harmoniously.

HTH.

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#422391 - 09/18/09 03:48 AM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
For example, look at Roy Dean. He is a black belt in BJJ and Aikido. He has managed to incorporate his the bodyskill (the movement) of Aikido along with his BJJ to great success in Sub Wresltling competitions:
Roy is a great ambassador for both BJJ and Aikido. It'd be interesting to see where he's at in 10, 20, 30 years time and to see how much he changes in the years to come.

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#422392 - 09/18/09 05:09 AM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Dobbersky

No offence was caused. My comments relating to dangerous ground and non-aikidoka responding were directed to anyone else who read the thread, and without any experience or knowledge of Aikido, feel the need to give their 2 cents worth when clearly they don't know what they are talking about. Believe me, it has happened A LOT on the Aikido Forum, and it seems to be the same culprits over and over again. Nothing wrong with your post or the questions you asked, just hoped you found something useful in my answer (or Eyries).
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#422397 - 09/18/09 12:37 PM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: Prizewriter]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<<I also found the "offering" of the hand a bit strange something I definately would not do in a month of Sundays in a real situation.>>

For what it's worth:

Last Tuesday in my new dojo we were shown six (of many more) ways to respond to the "offered hand".

Uke "offered the hand" as a punch to nage's mid section.

In a single line the class took turns, each person against the rest in order, using as many of the six as we could remember. Some were inventive. Great good practice

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#422398 - 09/18/09 01:46 PM Re: Aikido Styles Question [Re: iaibear]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Thank you all for explaining the reasons behind the techniques that I need answers for

I see more involvement in the techniques and the "slowness" of the Uke's techniques is namely for safety as with the correct breakfall techniques when Nage throws Uke
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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