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#415326 - 03/19/09 03:49 PM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: Neko456]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
The system can indeed be a question.

In theory, any MA can prepare you for a violent encounter. In reality, some systems tend to prepare you better than others.

This is not because the systems themselves are necessarily "better." Rather, it is because the key to fighting prowess is regular practice against actively resisiting opponents under realistic conditions. Some arts tend to feature this type of training more than others--AND YES, I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS!!!

More often than not, so-called "alive" training is part of the ju jitsu cirriculum, making it a pretty practical art.

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#415327 - 03/19/09 08:14 PM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

More often than not, so-called "alive" training is part of the ju jitsu cirriculum, making it a pretty practical art.




Hmmm, we must have different experiance's, I guess. I've found most Japanese Jujutsu to have little-to-no 'alive' training whatsoever. BJJ and 'sport' jiujitsu is another story, of course, so maybe that is what you mean? But no, most JJJ, or most 'non-sport', 'real world s.d.' type jiujitsu systems I've seen or tried have had almost no alive element at all.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#415328 - 03/21/09 02:19 PM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: Ames]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Wow--that is surprising.

However, what I know about jujitsu I learned from people I do judo with, so it is possible their experiences with jujitsu were atypical.

Too bad.

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#415329 - 03/21/09 11:41 PM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: fileboy2002]
Kahless Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 21
So then Japanese Jujutsu isn't very practical for street defense? I really dont want to sink time and money into something that is a lot of fancy fluff.

Just last week a friend of mine who has a brown belt in karate and also does tae kwon do, told me that my weight training doesn't make any difference in a fight. I disagreed of course and argues that because I can deadlift 405 lbs., I can basically pick you up and throw you into a wall. So we went to his basement where he has some practice mats, and all kinds of other weird things that I did not know what they were, and sparred. He tried doing a few kicks which I could see a mile away and had no trouble blocking (I have a little boxing experience), and then I rushed him and grabbed a hiold of his waist, picked him up on my shoulders and slammed him into the ground. It knocked the wind out of him and he couldn't even talk. Now I know that if I had have tried that to a very well trained fighter in an EFFECTIVE art, I would have had my ass handed to me probably, but it seems to me that if I knew somehting like jujitsu, I would be even deadlier at close range.

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#415330 - 03/22/09 01:10 AM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: Kahless]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

So then Japanese Jujutsu isn't very practical for street defense? I really dont want to sink time and money into something that is a lot of fancy fluff.

Just last week a friend of mine who has a brown belt in karate and also does tae kwon do, told me that my weight training doesn't make any difference in a fight. I disagreed of course and argues that because I can deadlift 405 lbs., I can basically pick you up and throw you into a wall. So we went to his basement where he has some practice mats, and all kinds of other weird things that I did not know what they were, and sparred. He tried doing a few kicks which I could see a mile away and had no trouble blocking (I have a little boxing experience), and then I rushed him and grabbed a hiold of his waist, picked him up on my shoulders and slammed him into the ground. It knocked the wind out of him and he couldn't even talk. Now I know that if I had have tried that to a very well trained fighter in an EFFECTIVE art, I would have had my ass handed to me probably, but it seems to me that if I knew somehting like jujitsu, I would be even deadlier at close range.




Not really, being that much bigger and stronger than most people is an enormous advantage, even against skilled fighters. IMO it would take someone damn good to nullify your size and strength advantage. Obviously you will be that much stronger with good training.

It seems like you know enough to judge what is real technique and what is not...use your judgement and common sense, along with an understanding of just what YOU want to learn.

People don't like to admit this, but it is true. The real test of whether or not what they do works on "t3h str33t" is whether or not they can get away from someone like you with designs on hurting them...not whether they can dominate you. Just my opinion though, obviously.

on t3h str33t...Not losing is much more important than winning.

P.S. There is some Koryu JJ that rolls and uses some forms of "live training" though most not on the same level as modern combat sports, it's not unheard of.

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#415331 - 03/22/09 06:43 AM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: Kahless]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Kahless

Like Zach and Ames said, Koryu arts usually don't have any sparring in them.

BJJ on the other hand has lots and lots of sparring (aka rolling).

If it isn't one of the above, chances are it is what I call "New Jitsu" or "Western Ju Jitsu". This could be abosolutely anything.

For example, in your other thread on here you ask about a place that, in your own words:

"It says CHOKUSHIN, which apparently is the integration of Daito-Ryu Aiki-jutsu, Kito-ryu Jujutsu, and Tenshin Shinyo-Ryu Jujutsu"

There are only 2 places in the World that teach Kito-Ryu outside of Japan, one in the UK, one in Australia. The chances of these people studying/teaching Kito Ryu is HIGHLY unlikely unless you live in London or Sydney.

In addition, there are less than 60 authentic Daito-Ryu teachers outside of Japan. Again, you would have to be incredibly lucky to find a genuine teacher in this art.

Now, Tenshin Shinyo-Ryu and Kito-Ryu are systems Jirgo Kano used to devise Judo. Daito-Ryu was a major influence on Aikido.

It seems to me that place is teaching a mish-mash of Judo & Aikido, with some striking (which I will bet good money is some sort of kickboxing/karate type striking) and dressing it up as some sort of traditional super-samauri system.

The instructor of the above club should be able to very specifically tell you WHO, WHAT and WHERE they studied with and for HOW long. If you get vague answers, chances are they aren't being honest about what it is they teach.

Frankly I would be amazed if ANYONE had studied Kito-Ryu, Tenshin Shindo Ryu and Daito-Ryu, mastered them all, and was now teaching them + some "cool bada$$ striking".

What is more likely to be the case (based on my experience and that of others) is that these people have studied a bit of Judo, and bit of Aikido, some striking, and packaged it as some sort of traditional Koryu system to reel in Samauri fantasists. I've seen it a 100 times before.

All that said, if you like the class and what it teaches, knock yourself out (not literally!). As long as you enjoy it, does it really matter if it is an authentic Japanese martial art? Of course there is a question about the deceptive nature of the people running the class passing it off as a traditional Japanese system, but it is for you to determine whether they are good people to learn from.

(PW dismounts his high horse and pauses for breath.)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#415332 - 03/22/09 09:10 AM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


on t3h str33t...Not losing is much more important than winning.





Absolutely right on.

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#415333 - 03/22/09 02:46 PM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: Kahless]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Kahless,

I think your friend ended up getting the worst of it for two reasons. First, TKD and karate tend to do a poor job of teaching grappling (YES I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS!!!).

But more importantly, it sounds like the size/strength disparity between you and your friend is just too large. Contrary to what he says, size and strength do mattter--A LOT--and you cannot change the laws of physics.

To put it another way: have a 5'2", 130 lb. black belt judoka face off agsinst a 6'7" 350lb. longshoreman, and it is the judoka who needs to worry.

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#424035 - 12/14/09 06:35 AM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: Kahless]
dapatch Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 2
It depends on a number of things, and I am not trying to insult anyone or give offense in any way, I am speaking from personal experience.
First off it depends on how you deal with stress, and then on how fit you are both mentally and physically.
Then it depends on what type of Ju-Jitsu et.al you are doing.
I have seen virtually all there is out there as regards Ju-Jitsu and all the varied names it goes under.
The proper term if it is a genuine Ryu is Ju-Jutsu, Jitsu is just a bastardization of the actual term.
I will say if you are training in Ju-Jutsu very definitely yes, it is effective in the street.
I have used it in my profession for nigh on 40 years, and it is only when you have to use it every day of your life you find out what is and is not 'real' about the Martial Art you practice.
The effectiveness [or not] of the Style or school you have chosen will depend on what it was designed for, and from.
Most Ju-Jitsu I have seen [I use that term specifically] is nothing to do with Traditional or Classical Ju-Jutsu, and owes more to Olympic Judo, AikiDo and boxing, with a little spot gymnastics thrown in, than to any real interpretation of the actual Art of Ju-jutsu.
it is fun to do basic self defense and taught in a nice glitzy package.
Ju-Jitsu is like everything in the Martial Arts, you have the good and the bad, and then the truly awful.
If you want practical street effective Ju-Jitsu then you are going to have to shop around, most of it is geared towards sport, and sport wont cut it in the street despite the claims to the contrary.
If the Style you choose teaches weapons such as the Ken, the Bo, and the So then you have a Traditional style Dojo.
But let me tell you this, in the street it is not about the Style or the Art you train in, because there is no such thing as a 'best' Martial Art.
There is what suits the individual, this is why there are different Arts, and every Art has a specific purpose.
There is the best man within the Style, and if the Style or System suits them and they train diligently then they can excel.
Both within and outside the confines of their chosen Art.
But there are also what is known as Dojo Dragons, and these are people who can whip the pants off anyone in the Dojo, and wet themselves with fright when attacked in the street.
The street is a whole different world, and what may seem logical in the Dojo can be made a nonsense in the street.
Ju-Jutsu was developed for war, by people whose lives depended upon it, why should it be any different today?
Ju-Jitsu taught Western style can be anything you want it to be if you are teaching.
I never cease to be amazed at why people think the old Arts are ineffective in the modern day.
A blow to a point five hundred years ago, will have the same effect as the same blow struck today, we are still human, some of us anyway, and very prone to injury.
Sorry about rambling on, but its just me getting old and decrepit.

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#424168 - 12/28/09 05:47 PM Re: Is it practical for the street? [Re: dapatch]
mukashimantis Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 36
Loc: new york
I teach japanese Jiu Jitsu and can say that what I teach is definetly street effective, having had to use it on a number of occasions, as well as my students coming to me with their own stories.A good school will cover most situations such as knife or club attacks, single and multiple opponent attacks and most importantly, the varying degree of attacks and opponent differences. We cover attacks by a larger opponent, one wearing heavy clothes, fighting in your everyday clothes instead of a gi. Attacks from a seat or table and much more. To simply practice in a gi or shorts in a ring is not learning self defense but sport. I feel you must ready your student for any situation.As you stated, stress training is also invaluable. Just my 2 cents.

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