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#414688 - 01/21/09 08:20 PM Links between Aikido and internal development
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I thought I would start a thread on this subject, rather than derail the 'kicks in aikido' thread. eyrie, I was wondering if you could expand on this:

Quote:

IOW, the question is not what other forms of practice (e.g. standing post etc.) that could be included, but WHAT is being practiced, and HOW to practice "it". It's kinda like saying the form of taiji is what develops the internal elements (which isn't true BTW), rather than developing the internal elements which are outwardly expressed in the form of one's taiji (or Aikido, or Karate, or insert other art).

I would suggest that the WHAT is already in Aikido, but the HOW is generally what's missing - and I appreciate the reasons WHY that may be.




a little more.

Theorizing, why do you think the 'how's' are missing (did I just write that, lol )?

This is a subject I've been thinking about a lot lately, and would love to hear yours, and anyone else's opinion.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414689 - 01/21/09 08:33 PM Re: Links between Aikido and internal development [Re: Ames]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
For openers, please clarify, what is a "standing post"?

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#414690 - 01/21/09 08:55 PM Re: Links between Aikido and internal development [Re: iaibear]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
iaibear, a 'standing post' is the English translation of the Chinese 'Zhan Zhuang'. It's also called 'standing like a tree', or, even, my favorite (and the one I tell people in the park when they ask me what I'm doing) 'tree hugging'. They are a series of postures meant to develop internal strength. There are many different theories out there as to what precisely they are working: some say muscles, some the fascia, others say tendons and ligaments, some all of the above. In reality, from my small amount of knowledge on this subject, there are different 'sets' to work different things.

I only know a few postures, but I find them relaxing, and a good way to check your body for areas of tension.

As far as they relate to Aikido, there are pictures of O'sensei performing what looks like Standing Posts (for an easy to find source check out 'Secrets of Aikido', although there isn't anything actually said about them!).

Some Koryu styles seem to have these as well (like certain schools of Daito Ryu), and chances are O'sensei learned them from those sources.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414691 - 01/22/09 02:29 AM Re: Links between Aikido and internal development [Re: Ames]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
As to why the HOW is missing - there are any number of reasons, from "secret" to "personal instruction" to "instruction by one-to-one and non-verbal transmission".

As for the WHAT and WHY, it's way to complicated to describe in a few short sentences. Check your PM.

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#414692 - 01/22/09 08:01 AM Re: Links between Aikido and internal development [Re: eyrie]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< iaibear, a 'standing post' is the English translation of the Chinese 'Zhan Zhuang'. It's also called 'standing like a tree' >>

Thank you. There was a bit in Google. The example they gave was "horse stance". (mangrove?)

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#414693 - 01/22/09 04:13 PM Re: Links between Aikido and internal development [Re: eyrie]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I guess what I'm wondering is do you feel there is a benifit to learning zhang zhuang, or other methods of internal cultivation for Aikido?

Could it help someone bring out aspects of the waza that are not easily grasped?

Or, on the other hand, do you think that all of this 'stuff', if present in the waza, will come to the surface through the current method of repetition?

iaibear: yes, horse stance would be one example of a posture. Keep in mind though that many of these postures can be done either 'internally' or 'externally'.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/22/09 04:17 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414694 - 01/22/09 06:40 PM Re: Links between Aikido and internal development [Re: Ames]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I guess what I'm wondering is do you feel there is a benifit to learning zhang zhuang, or other methods of internal cultivation for Aikido?


To the extent it helps one discover the purpose and reasons for such methods... yes.

Quote:

Could it help someone bring out aspects of the waza that are not easily grasped?


To the extent that people understand and realize the difference between standing practice and moving practice, and how that pertains to waza... I'd say yes.

Quote:

Or, on the other hand, do you think that all of this 'stuff', if present in the waza, will come to the surface through the current method of repetition?


No. I don't think so. There's a lot more to it than mere repetition...

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#414695 - 01/22/09 07:35 PM Re: Links between Aikido and internal development [Re: eyrie]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

No. I don't think so. There's a lot more to it than mere repetition...




Yes, I guess 'repetition' wasn't the right word there.

I guess what I'm getting at is there crossover between the lessons learned through the standing that can inform the waza? And are those lessons easier to learn by being static and focusing on what's going on inside?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414696 - 01/22/09 08:42 PM Re: Links between Aikido and internal development [Re: Ames]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It's a very good question, but unfortunately, it starts to get really complicated. It's a heck of a lot more than just focusing on what's going on inside...

Suffice to say, both static and dynamic practice is required. But first learn what static practice aims to develop... then try to do it whilst moving!

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#414697 - 01/23/09 09:47 AM Re: Links between Aikido and internal development [Re: eyrie]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

It's a very good question, but unfortunately, it starts to get really complicated. It's a heck of a lot more than just focusing on what's going on inside...

Suffice to say, both static and dynamic practice is required. But first learn what static practice aims to develop... then try to do it whilst moving!



Sadly, it is becoming increasingly obvious that after 15 years of practicing what I think of a "aikido", I still know absolutely nothing about it.

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