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#414175 - 01/13/09 10:24 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: JMWcorwin]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< Well, even Kendo can sometimes put a damper on reality of proper cutting. >>

Thank you. I was feeling a little lonely.

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#414176 - 01/13/09 11:39 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: iaibear]
Egoras Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
I guess that what sword fighting sports do is narrow down the possibilities, to have some degree of control. The thing is, I guess, in a real battle... control is difficult. You could easily get hurt with a mediocre swing, for example. Luck plays an important part.

Regarding the paintball comparison... do katanas really differ that much from a shinai? I have a WW II katana at home, when we do Swords Day II I'll compare the shinai's balance and weight with it. The one thing I noticed about the shinai (apart from not being curve, of course) is that is a tad longer. I asked my kendoka friend why and he said there was a reason but couldn't remember it...

Duel sabers are just a little bit heavier, but that's it. Of course the handling has evolved to modern fencing, but the basis comes from dueling fencing.


Edited by Egoras (01/13/09 11:43 PM)

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#414177 - 01/14/09 09:00 AM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Egoras]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Yes. Shinai vary greatly from katana. They are a LOT lighter weight. They flex in ways that the real thing don't. They are more or less round, don'thave an edge, have a different shaped handle, have no saya, are balanced differently, have longer handles...etc etc etc. They aren't the same at all. What they are is a safer alternative when used with the other safety gear they are designed to work with.

What's more, the comparison had less to do with the difference between paintball guns and real firearms, but rather had more to do with the skills, goals, and training of the people engaged in the two different activities.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#414178 - 01/14/09 05:36 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Egoras]
Richard_Norris Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

...in my opinion randori is absolutely necessary...




There's no shortage of opinions, no question about that. You can train for sparring and sport fighting, but I don't see much that demonstrates that doing so will prepare you for the setting wherein someone pulls out a knife to stab you in the kidney. I could be wrong; I don't know. It may very well be fun, of course, so that can't be bad. Doesn't make any sense to sell it as more than it is though, since we'd need to have folks dueling with swords to test the premise, and that ain't happening.

RN 'there's always visiting Sudan, of course'

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#414179 - 01/14/09 11:09 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Richard_Norris]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117

Quote:

You can train for sparring and sport fighting, but I don't see much that demonstrates that doing so will prepare you for the setting wherein someone pulls out a knife to stab you in the kidney.




Sorry, but you've lost me here. How would kenjutsu prepare you for someone pulling a knife to stab you? That is, unless you walk around with a sword...


Quote:

Doesn't make any sense to sell it as more than it is though, since we'd need to have folks dueling with swords to test the premise, and that ain't happening.




Egoras' videos aside, I'd like to point out that many koryu Kenjutsu styles, such as Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Ono Ha Itto Ryu, styles which are far from 'sport', do in fact contain randori.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414180 - 01/15/09 09:37 AM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Charles Mahan]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

Shinai vary greatly from katana. They are a LOT lighter weight. They flex in ways that the real thing don't. They are more or less round, don'thave an edge, have a different shaped handle, have no saya, are balanced differently, have longer handles...etc etc etc. They aren't the same at all. What they are is a safer alternative when used with the other safety gear they are designed to work with.




Also the delivery of a strike differs. A shinai strike is a hit, a katana strike is a slice.

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#414181 - 01/15/09 11:25 AM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: iaibear]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
iaibear: I'm not sure if your talking about the actual physical difference between a katana and a shinai, being that one is capable of slicing and the other hits; or if you are talking about the difference in intent behind each weapons use. If it is the latter, then something to keep in mind is that, although often in modern kendo the kendoka's intent is to 'hit' rather than cut, that shinai can, and is, used by some koryu practioners for a kind of randori which carries over the body skills learned from the kata and puts them into 'real time'.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414182 - 01/15/09 02:27 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Ames]
Egoras Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Guys: please take a close look at the video. The kendoka and I, 'Grasshopper' ALWAYS (or at least try to) strike with the front of the shinai, where a katana would be sharp. Even in fencing my master insists in striking with the sharp section of the blade (which is in fact not good for the sport, because striking in this manner the blade blends less.

I accept that a katana is not entirely like a shinai, but there is adaptation. In fact, that day was my first day handling a shinai. I come from sabre fencing. A shinai differs far more from a fencing sabre than a shinai from a katana. And I quickly felt confortable... I have no doubt that if I have to use a real katana, I would also easily feel at home. Everything contributes to general sword fighting awareness and sword handling.

Ames: I still believe that any martial art, any fighting art as this forum is called, prepares you against any combat situation. Anyone that goes from one fighting discipline to another one would say that the previous one has helped him, although sometimes common habits of the previous one could be bad habits of the new one. For example, we had one Kung-Fu practicioner thas was used to moving back and forth while fighting. In fencing, if you move back, you loose your priority. So it was a bad habit. But sport rule aside, moving back and forth, testing your oponent, would be a valid combat technique.

Bye! Nice talking to you, see ya'all.

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#414183 - 01/15/09 07:00 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Ames]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:


Sorry, but you've lost me here. How would kenjutsu prepare you for someone pulling a knife to stab you? That is, unless you walk around with a sword...





You'd be suprised.

Quote:


Egoras' videos aside, I'd like to point out that many koryu Kenjutsu styles, such as Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Ono Ha Itto Ryu, styles which are far from 'sport', do in fact contain randori.





This has come up over and over again on various forums for years. A wide variety of practitioners from a variety of styles will back me up when I say the following: Randori style practice is very much the exception and not the rule with koryu kenjutsu/iaijutsu styles.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#414184 - 01/15/09 10:29 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Charles Mahan]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Charles, I would be suprised. I have studied Koryu kenjutsu (though not beyond a very basic level), and though I have found it helped my empty hand skills quite a bit, I wouldn't go so far as to say that kenjutsu alone is enough to teach someone how not to get shanked in the kidneys. Does it build attributes that have cross over into empty hand skill? Absolutely, and without a doubt. But so does kendo.



Quote:

This has come up over and over again on various forums for years. A wide variety of practitioners from a variety of styles will back me up when I say the following: Randori style practice is very much the exception and not the rule with koryu kenjutsu/iaijutsu styles.




In all honesty, I can't speak for every koryu sword art out there. But the fact does remain that several major styles DO practice randori. Are we talking majority here? I haven't seen a survey on this, so I don't know for sure. But my point is that obviously some Ryu's do feel that randori is beneficial to the learning of the sword, and that randori does not automatically equate to a 'sport mindset', in which those principles of the style learned through kata suddenly become remote.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/15/09 10:31 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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