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#414165 - 01/10/09 08:28 PM Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo...
Egoras Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Hey just made this video with my friends, what do you think???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKfZ-_do_uY

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#414166 - 01/11/09 04:41 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Egoras]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Looks like some folks with no connection to genuine sword arts whacking each other with sticks. Am I wrong?
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#414167 - 01/11/09 05:03 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Charles Mahan]
Egoras Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
You're partially wrong:

'Grasshopper' is an occidental fencer.

'Japase Kendoka' is what his name says.

'Germinator' has no connection, but fighting him is tricky because he acts like a crazy barbarian.

'Foil Fencer'... is a fencer.

The only ones that are completely off (but are still fun to see) are 'Judoka Scorpion' and 'Itie'.

This is real fighting, not choreographies.

Would you rather see a "Swords Fight!" titled video with two guys with doing some fancy movements and trying to make it look like it's real?

The good thing about the video is that IT'S REAL...

Would you say "Sword Art" is only about katas and theory about what a real fight would be? I strongy disagree. In order to be a sword master you must fight, not only practice what you would do in a fight.

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#414168 - 01/11/09 05:30 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Egoras]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Firstly, I respect your guys cahona's for going at it full contact with just head gear. However, I do have a couple of points to raise:

Quote:

The good thing about the video is that IT'S REAL...





No offense, but no it is not real. It might be an approximation, but it surely isn't real. Even it being an approximation of 'reality' would neccitate the combatants having some knowledge of the actual capacity of a sword to inflict damage. This can really only be had through drilling of techniques which come down to us from those who actually engaged with live weapons.


Quote:

Would you say "Sword Art" is only about katas and theory about what a real fight would be? I strongy disagree. In order to be a sword master you must fight, not only practice what you would do in a fight.




Many 'kata based' koryu sword arts, do at some point have randori.

Also, I'd like to point out that by your own logic, it would be impossible for any one to reach 'master' status with a sword, as it is fairly impossible to engage in live dueling (which is what a 'real' sword fight is) in this day and age.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/11/09 05:33 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414169 - 01/11/09 06:02 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Ames]
Egoras Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Hi Chris, thanks for your post.

Of course, in my opinion randori is absolutely necessary! But it should be done with protection, reducing the fear of hurting your opponent and therefore fighting with all you've got.

I accept it's not real, but only under certain circumstances. For example, the flying-hits 'Grasshopper' deliver would be kind of silly against an oponent with strong head and face protection, because the blow would not be strong enough. But against an unarmoured opponent it would be trouble. As you have stated: it's an approach. I find very interesting what you have said about studying real sword damage. Do you have any videos or documents or something I could see that reflects that experience? Thanks!

Master status, for me, apart from knowing the technique, is being able to fight being completely relaxed and nevertheless winning easily against almost any opponent, except other masters, of course. I guess you could be a master in non-lethal sword fighting, but as you said, you wouldn't be a live-dueling master.

Again thanks for your answer!


Edited by Egoras (01/11/09 06:03 PM)

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#414170 - 01/11/09 06:17 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Egoras]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I tend to agree that at some point randori is necessary. But I also think, as this applies to someone studying a non-sport sword art, that randori done to early can, and usually is, detrimental to development.

Quote:

I find very interesting what you have said about studying real sword damage. Do you have any videos or documents or something I could see that reflects that experience? Thanks!




Finding this kind of documentation would be difficult. If I was so inclined, I would begin by looking into case studies involving deaths by machette or knives. Although not exactly like the damage one would sustain from a sword, it might provided a good start.

But what I was referring to was that through the study of a tradional sword art, such as kenjutsu, one is made aware of the types of strikes, the specific angles of attack and the vulnerable areas of the body to target, as well as how to open them up for attack. The other issue would be proper depth, which can be taught through test cutting. Again, I feel that in order to learn these things, you need to study in an art that has had this information passed down from the years people actually fought with live blades.

The danger with just practicing randori with a shinai is that, although sometimes a hit may sting, it might be to a less vulnerable area; meanwhile a person may thrust, you may not feel it as much, yet if that area was hit in a real exchange, you would die.

The other general comment I would make is that I didn't see any attempt at moving past the arc of the blade and clinching and throwing your opponent...something else that can be seen in many kata, as well as Western manuals.

My two cents.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414171 - 01/11/09 06:47 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Ames]
Egoras Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
I totally agree with you, is necessary to learn the different types of strikes. I respect very much Kendo regarding landing only deadly and proper executed blows. Fencing on the other hand can be much more subtle, because dueling was subtle. You would only require first blood to win.

The general comment: do you mean like applying some judo to your opponent? It would really be interesting to try to do something like that, I promise that if I see the chance I will try to do so . Thing is in fencing we always have in mind to "keep the distance", so I'm not used to being very close to the oponent, as for example some kendokas are.

Thanks for your answer, really nice talking to you.

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#414172 - 01/12/09 05:50 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Egoras]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

Hey just made this video with my friends, what do you think??



I gotta agree with Charles. Looks like y'all had lots of fun, but it really has nothing to do with actual sword arts. You say that some of the people in that video actually practice fencing and kendo? If so, they are very much beginners.

Have fun, stay safe!
_________________________
Paul

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#414173 - 01/13/09 07:20 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: pgsmith]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
It's kinda like evaluating a video of a paintball team. The paintballers could be good. They can have a lot of fun and be completely killer at paintball. They could even be a championship team, but what they do does not necessarily bear much resemblance to what a special forces unit is capable of. The weapons are different. The protection is different. The psychology of the people involved is different. The consequences of success and failure are radically different. While some similarities are inevitable, at a fundamental level there are differences.

If you had fun and nobody got hurt, well that's a good thing.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#414174 - 01/13/09 07:41 PM Re: Shinai free fighting, fencing, kendo... [Re: Egoras]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Quote:

I respect very much Kendo regarding landing only deadly and proper executed blows.




Well, even Kendo can sometimes put a damper on reality of proper cutting. Not all, but many Kendo schools today practice Kendo something along the lines of Olympic Style TKD or Judo. The techniques are tailored for making a point with a shinai, not killing with a live blade. Usually they have rules against striking the legs or back, which are both incredibly viable targets for a live blade. If I can get past you and cut throuh your leg on the way past or a nice slice to the spine,,, no more fight. But, mainly, I thing the point that some of the other posters are making is that the dynamics of a stick and the kind of injury it can cause are quite different from the dynamics of a properly swung blade.

Just my 2

However, I have done this very thing and just gone for it with the gear for fun & exercise. Very fun, especially if you make strikes to anywhere legal and allow for hand to hand if you get close enough. We even used to do 4 or 5 on 4 or 5 in mock battle scenarios and even used variations of 1 or 2 blades (long or short) and naginata or spear(flex foam of course. Fun stuff.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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