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#414057 - 01/09/09 05:21 AM Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 892
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All,

What are your views about the pros and cons of the 2(3) Styles when they are compared with each other?
Kancho Ashihara/Kancho Ninomiya took Kyokushin, Judo, Aikido and a few other arts and created Ashihara Karate and Enshin Karate (although Enshin was formed at a later date). From what I can see, Kancho Ashihara and Shifu Lee both created independant styles at around a similar time independantly and unknowingly of each other.

What do you think was the thought process as Shifu B. Lee did the same thing and took Wing Chun, Lau Gar and other styles and create Jeet Kune Do at around a similar time in History?

I wasn't too sure about the dates of the forming on Jeet Kune Do and Ashiharakai but I new they were of a similar era in history. But I thought it was an excellent topic for a new thread.

Please note, this is a not a my style is better than yours thread this is about the routes of each style and about their creator/creation.

I placed this thread on another forum and got some really good responses, I wanted to pass it to you guys to see what your thoughts are and also give the Kung Fu guys a chance to comment themselves.

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#414058 - 01/09/09 12:54 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate [Re: Dobbersky]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
No I think Sifu Lee had a totally different idea, he wasn't trying to form a better Karate or Kung-fu. But mind free responce to a movement without style or a certain way to do something.

I think you are right about the Karate Kyoshinkai systems but I think JKD is not a system its a feeling its a way of no way,its is just a reply to a move in the most efficent way you know of from your base. Its more about self discovering rather then learning a certain way to do something as in the Eshin stress of tai sabaki and turning your oppoenet, which still is Karate. JKD can have a Karate base but it could have a Kali or wrestling base or whatever. JKD is a theory of way of no way. It's not a style or set format as in a system of Karate or Jujitsu.


My 2 cent.


Edited by Neko456 (01/09/09 12:56 PM)
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#414059 - 01/10/09 12:35 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate [Re: Dobbersky]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Interesting topic, Dobbersky. I've always wanted to study Ashihara Karate actually (there doesn't seem to be any around here, though). Maybe to get the ball rolling it would help to be given a rundown of philosophy that guides the system though. Because I think people (like myself) know about Lee's concepts, but not Ashihara's.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414060 - 01/12/09 12:05 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate [Re: Ames]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Chris, I hope Ken (Dobbersky), doesn't mind me dropping a few things down about Ashihara. I've studied it for about 16 years and my original instructor was Yoshida Sensei who was the Hombu head instructor under Ashihara. He taught in Australia and later came to California where I learned from him.

In any case, nothing is perfect and no art, system or method has it all for every individual. With that said, there was enough of the good stuff in Ashihara that I stayed for a long time. The other thing you have to keep in mind, like all systems and styles, the stuff you are taught may not be the exact curriculum others are taught from other instructors, but are centered around the same basics even if expanded upon or delivered differently.

As I learned it, boxing was the choice of hand usage coupled with some punches ala Kyokushin, noting its antecedent art. What differentiated it from Kyokushin was primarily three things, not necessarily in the techniques used but in how they were implemented within the central strategy of the system: 1) Extreme emphasis on tai-sabaki (body movement in and around attacks with an idea to unbalance the attacker or confine his attacks to less able ones) with a set curriculum for acquiring this skill; 2) Though full-contact, going out and wailing on one another as in early Kyokushin wasn't necessarily the goal; and 3) the use of grabbing and throws. Limitations would be in the lack of a ground game, though many of the stylists were and are acquainted with Judo, it still would not be anything nearly as emphatic as wrestling basics or a firm grounding in BJJ.

As for the higher levels of Tai-sabaki use, some of these, though not Aikido, can be Aikido like.

Regards,
Brad

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#414061 - 01/14/09 08:53 AM Re: Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate [Re: butterfly]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 892
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Quote:

Chris, I hope Ken (Dobbersky), doesn't mind me dropping a few things down about Ashihara. Regards,Brad




Brad, (Butterfly), my friend, I actually feel like you came to my rescue!!! lol. I am grateful for your input. As an independant club its hard to accumilate all the knowledge about the style that I love so much. If I was 10-15 years younger, I'd be knocking on your door asking to be your Uchi Deshi Lol.

I hope you and your family had a wonderful Christmas and New Year. Thanks Brad

And Thanks Guys for all your posts on this thread although I'm not too sure if I've had any posts from JKD practitioners

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#414062 - 01/14/09 12:14 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate [Re: Dobbersky]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Comparing JKD - Eshin or Ashihara stress of tai sabaki and turning your oppoenet, but its still just Karate.

JKD can have a Karate base but it could have a Kali or wrestling base or whatever.

JKD is a theory of way of no way.

It's not a style or set format as in a system of Karate or Jujitsu.
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DBAckerson

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#414063 - 01/14/09 01:00 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate [Re: butterfly]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
butterfly, thanks for that! The focus on Tai Sabaki is actually what has made me want to study the Ashihara system for some time now, as I think it would work well with my Aikido.

Quote:

As for the higher levels of Tai-sabaki use, some of these, though not Aikido, can be Aikido like.




Not that I expect there to be any, but do you know of any video, either free or not, where I can check some of this stuff out? I'm really interested to see it.

As a general question, are there any kata in the system, or has the focused changed to two man drills and sparring?

--Chris

p.s. If you know of any Ashihara folks in Toronto, please let me know.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#414064 - 01/15/09 11:04 AM Re: Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate [Re: Ames]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
To answer your question about kata, there are katas, but they are essentially two man drills that can be done solo, or with sections taken out to give some idea of usable techniques per range. They are exactly the techniques one can use, and do use in basic practice, with no overt attempt to make them aestheticly pleasing. They are not kata in the traditional sense. And I still don't like them or other kata. LOL

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#414065 - 01/17/09 07:43 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate [Re: butterfly]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 892
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Thanks Guys for your thoughts

I wanna bring it back on line for a minute

My main question was how did to Excellent Martial Artists and Streetfighters from different parts of the world come up with the style that they did, they both are from traditional style and both created something completely different.

It shows that its a thought which is had by many people over time.

Another less 'traditional' example Is Imi Lichenfield the founder of Krav Maga, he again was a Streetfighter with a traditional base in Judo/Jujitsu Wrestling and Boxing. And Krav Maga is also so similar to Ashihara/Enshin and Jeet Kune Do but without the Kata.

They all seem to have one thing in common - they were all established streetfighers.

thanks guys and your thoughts on this concept please
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#414066 - 04/06/09 04:59 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do V Ashihara/Enshin Karate [Re: Dobbersky]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ah but Bruce wasnt and still is not an established streetfighter. Theres no evidence, other than heresay, to prove that he EVER had a streetfight. What he was was an established Hollywood Actor, he just had a good mind for martial arts.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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