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#414026 - 01/11/09 09:43 PM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: fileboy2002]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Duane,

Everyone knows me here and knows that no one is more empathetic for LEO concerns than I am. That being said, I disagree with your first statement.

A police officer may use force, however, regardless of his "perception" he does not get, "a pass" as fileboy put it.

If an officer's perception is wrong or he used force that is unwarranted, then no matter what the officer's "perception" was, he can face very serious consequences.

Possibly I am disagreeing with the way you worded your statement and there really is no disagreement. I'm not completely sure.

On the other hand, I disagree with fileboy that this can be categorized as, "abuse" on the police officer's part. An accidental shooting is an accidental shooting, however, that does not justify or excuse the officer in question from facing serious repercussions....

I do agree that right now not all the facts are out.

K
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#414027 - 01/12/09 05:10 AM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: fileboy2002]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:

No reasonable person would suggest acting before all the facts are in. However, the great fear is that the officer might get a pass regardless of the facts. That happens often enough.

It amazes me how many people I have already heard making excuses for why this copper may have acted as he did--they aren't waiting for the facts, either. I mean, how @#$% obvious does the abuse have to be befor people see there might be a problem? Civilians never get this kind of consideration.




1,Give me several examples of officers getting "passes".
2.Civilians do get this consideration-it's called a criminal investigation.

Duane

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#414028 - 01/12/09 05:22 AM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: hunterkell]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
The officer can only act on what he knows-his perception. The force he chooses to use must be reasonable or he faces the consequences.
Case in point-A armed deputy just outside the booking area sees and hears the following:
1. Several louds booms he beleives are gunshots coming from the jail area.
2. Hears a jailer screaming, "He's got a gun, he's got a gun."
3. Jailer runs past the deputy pointing behind her.Deputy draws his gun.
4. Guy comes running around a corner right behind the jailer.
5. Deputy shoots the guy.
Is that a reasonable use of force based on the deputies perception? In that split second would that be an appropriate choice? In that flash of a moment in time would you considerate it reasonable to fire to save your life, the jailers life and everybody else's life in the building?

Duane

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#414029 - 01/12/09 09:59 AM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: duanew]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Duane, I am also very sensitive to the LEO side of the story. But your example does not represent anything like what happened in the video.
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#414030 - 01/12/09 11:36 AM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: MattJ]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
I am trying to address the idea of perception. In the actual case that happened the guy coming around the corner was a handcuffed DUI suspect who was attempting to escape the shooter.....He was shot, tragically. The officer however was cleared of any wrong doing based on his perception of the situation in that split second of a "rapidly evolving, tense situation" (Graham v Connor)not the "clear 20/20 hindsight" of the actual situation. And that is my point- officers have to make split second decisions based on what they know (perceive)in that split second. If you don't know what they officer believed at the time you can't possibly decide if the action was reasonable or not.

Duane

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#414031 - 01/12/09 12:22 PM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: duanew]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
I don't agree with that. Rodney King? Video can most certainly be used as evidence of improper action - as it seems to be in this case. Again, the situation is totally different in this case than what you are referring to.
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#414032 - 01/12/09 12:38 PM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
I think Duane makes a great point, even if it has no bearing on this case.

My issue is simply watching this video, I see no crime, I see a mistake, a really bad mistake, but a mistake. Many here have seen a crime, scream abuse etc. I am not ruling that out as I don't know all the facts, but the problem with calling this abuse, when if as it appears to me is just a mistake, is it belittles the real abuse that takes place from LEO's against the citizens of our country.

Truth of the matter is this, I believe that most people are good, and act to the best of their ability. If you make a mistake, you have to face consequences, but that should viewed very diferently then a person who makes a choice, to do harm or put others in harms way.

Lets not lump them all together Nancy Grace:)
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#414033 - 01/12/09 01:01 PM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
To be clear, I am not yet throwing the book at the officer. I said before that I would like to know the full context of what happened. Just hard to understand why the gun was drawn in the first place.
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#414034 - 01/12/09 02:55 PM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: duanew]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Well, I do not know how many "several" is, so I'll give you the one I am most familiar with: the John Burge Case in Chicago.

Although a federal probe concluded John Burge and several of his officers routinely tortured suspects to extract confessions, neither Burge nor any of his officers were ever prosecuted. Burge was forced to resign in 1993; however, he got a full pension and is still having his legal bills paid by the City of Chicago--to the tune of $8 million so far.

Think about it. Burge and his guys spent 20 years dragging suspects into a basement, smashing their heads with phone books, suffocating them with typewriter covers, shocking them with cattle prods, chaining them to hot radiators and running electric currents through their genitals. If you, me, or any civilian did such a thing, do you think we'd be collecting a pension and living free in Florida?

And are you really shocked that cops find it easier to get away with bad behavior than the general public? You shouldn't be. In any case, the evidence is everywhere: do a google search on police misconduct if you want more examples.

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#414035 - 01/12/09 03:23 PM Re: More Bad Apples? [Re: MattJ]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:

I don't agree with that. Rodney King? Video can most certainly be used as evidence of improper action - as it seems to be in this case. Again, the situation is totally different in this case than what you are referring to.




As usual I am not exactly sure what you don't agree with. I don't recall stating that video CAN"T be used as evidence-that would be absurd-obviously it is evidence. Once again I am not using the last case because it is similar in nature. I am talking about the officers perception as being an absolutley critical component in the decision making process. To repeat myself-until we know what the officers perception of the threat was we cannot judge if the action was proper or not.
By the way in the California State trial the officers were found NOT guilty in the King Case. Why? Unlike most who had an opinion, a jury who heard the WHOLE case, not just sound bites on CNN, found no wrong doing.
The officers were found guilty in Federal court.

Duane

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