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#413891 - 02/12/09 02:21 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: Olderman]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Olderman its hard to answer everything.

Wing Chun is an internal system meaning the focus is on using the bones and tendons. External methods focus on the muscles as prime. Sounds like semantics I know and yes everyone uses all 3 in some degree or other but there is a huge difference.

The first form is meant to train the proper body structure to use the internal side. Watch the body of the performer of the form . You can see him rise and fall ,contract and expand. float,spit, sink swallow etc. Now watch a reguler Yip Man SLT. there are hundreds on you tube. You will see the difference right away.

There are many combat applications in the form but those are secondary at this level of training.

Wing chun fighting depends on the proper use of the body and body structure. Its basis is no two bodies and occupy the same space at the same time. If a person is falling backwards they cannot punch forward with any power as a rule.

If you fight you get hit. the goal is not to block everything(you can't) the goal is not get hit with full power while hitting with full power yourself. If I cover and crash into you and my body structure is good you will be displaced and move back I will hve sound rooting and be able to hit with full power.

Another example and test. You stand still I get a large MT kicking Pad and hold it across my chest. I run at you. Your goal is to remain in your stance and punch me when in range. I should go backwards. You will find however most punchers get run over due to lack of real body structure and understanding how to use the body.

This is just some examples of what you are trying to train in the first form.

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#413892 - 02/12/09 07:51 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Don -
Back on the video, correct me if I'm wrong but the man doing the form sort of reverses the 'spin' on his lop sao's that follow the huen sao's, yeah? When he lops it looks a lot more like he's grabbing an actual arm...

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#413893 - 02/13/09 05:48 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Quote:


Watch the body of the performer of the form . You can see him rise and fall ,contract and expand. float,spit, sink swallow .







It would seem I am looking at everything from an external point of view although I have never understood or experienced internal?
Would you agree that quite a few so called internal based arts practitioners can rely a lot on external?
I think this is where it gets confusing.
I have had some one attempt to demonstrate what they claimed was internal to me but I was very much a none believer in what was been attempted at the time.





It would be nice if the above was explained in detail.
Or is this has already been done could you direct me to the link.

Perhaps we could start with
Contract and expand?

If you have time that is?


Edited by Olderman (02/13/09 05:55 AM)

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#413894 - 02/13/09 05:09 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Which system seems closer to Orginal Wing Chun Ip Man's or H. Leung's WC version of YongChun gung fu?

It seems the most popular system though maybe easier to learn is not the intended way or am I missing something or starting something?

Like most I'm most familar with Ip Man's and JKD's way because of the popularity of Sifu Lee and his students, students, students.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#413895 - 02/14/09 12:12 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Shikata you are right. There used to be far more emphasis on kum na and throwing. Also muscle grabbing used to be highly trained. Funny thing is Yip was known for his very strong fingers and grip according to his early students in Fatshan.
In HK he stopped teaching it. One reason was that most of his students were young punks that were more interested in punching the hell out of folks.

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#413896 - 02/14/09 12:19 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Neko no way to say which method is closer to original. Yip Mans version has many different versions.

Yip system is easier to learn than some others but it was designed that way and I think it works well. Yip taught fighting skills first then taught the harder to learn aspects after that. Harder to learn skills = take longer to master and make functional. He made his money because his students usually beat the hell out of the other styles in the 50s in HK. He needed the money to support his second wife and children so giving students what they wanted was primary.


Edited by donchisau (02/14/09 12:20 AM)

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#413897 - 02/14/09 12:28 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: Olderman]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Older I will try to find some stuff to better explain.

By internal I do not mean using chi etc. Internal= use of bones and tendons as primary source of power and strength.

AN example. Stand normally have a friend ,wife etc put their hand hand flat on your chest and the push you. Most people when pushed fall back, wobble have to adjust their feet etc depending on the push. however if you have your skeleton aligned right you will just stand there and the person will feel they are pushing on a wall. You won't move at all. This is an example of internal and is essential for wing chun.

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#413898 - 02/14/09 02:31 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
It's funny - I've crossed trained alot of FMA, a little Chow Gar and some judo/bjj/mma type skills into my WC and I do some of those things reflexively in training and sparring. I try to work muscle-grip, twisting, locks and limb destructions (implied of course) into chi sao when I can.
The crappy thing is if I hypothetically teach 'wing chun' to someone else, with the additions of the other skills I've learned integrated into it (because everything I use becomes wing chun in theory) that makes my curriculum somehow unauthentic or wrong according to most practitioners.
It brings me back to a pivotal question about wing chun - is it actually even a 'style', or is it as general a term as say 'wrestling'? More a fundamental?

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#413899 - 02/16/09 12:38 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Quote:

Older I will try to find some stuff to better explain.

By internal I do not mean using chi etc. Internal= use of bones and tendons as primary source of power and strength.

AN example. Stand normally have a friend ,wife etc put their hand hand flat on your chest and the push you. Most people when pushed fall back, wobble have to adjust their feet etc depending on the push. however if you have your skeleton aligned right you will just stand there and the person will feel they are pushing on a wall. You won't move at all. This is an example of internal and is essential for wing chun.




How?

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#413900 - 02/16/09 09:21 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Shikata you make a very good point. I think it is best not to listen to what those that follow party dogma say.

All arts at one time contained all forms of combat. Just because Yip Man taught or didn't teach something doesn't mean it's not there. For example. There are sweeps taught in the dummy so it makes sense that if you can get swept there would be methods to deal with a sweep or to get off the ground if put there. Everyone agrees on the chum kui arm break. it maks sense that if there is a clear arm break there should also be wrist and shoulder breaks/locks too.
From my point of view just because some small minds take the position that"Yip Man didn't teach is so its not wing chun" does not mean we have to follow and give up our own thoughts and observations. Besides nobody knows what Yip Man taught. His fatshan students have different things than his HK students and look at the differences between HK students. Yip Ching different than Yip Chun both different than Moy Yot who is different than Leung Ting who is different than Leung Shun who is different that Tsui shun Tin etc etc.
Perhaps when you are adding things from other arts you are adding back in what was there in the first place.

Yip Man always said he taught concepts not rules. Looked at this way there are many possibilities.

What makes wing chun different from other arts is not the hand shapes or kicks its the internal structure and power generation methods. Look at Hung Gar Iron wire set or SPM use of rib power and compare to wing chun. That is where the difference comes in. Not the hands sweeps joint locks etc.

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