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#413881 - 02/09/09 07:27 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: Neko456]
futsaowingchun Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 87
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:

Did Yip man change the system to make it easier to learn or did he change it to make it more compact to teach. But we can't blame it on Yip man because most Wing Chun/Tsun/Tsung seems to have the short jerky flow using more snap power then the smoother flow of your WC.






I've never seen low stances in WC except in some of there weapon forms or sticky leg drills. It makes you wonder what Wing Chun really looks like before the change.

Who were some of Yip man's Sifu students that were his equalled or was his senior in class? As with most system I sure there are several branches or you wouldn't look so different.





Neko456 some Wing Chun lineages us the low horse. In the Fut Sao wing chun the low horse is introduced in Chum Kil form and the Bil Gee is almost low horse.I agree though you need the low horse to lower your center of COG to pervent take downs.



Edited by futsaowingchun (02/09/09 07:30 PM)
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#413882 - 02/10/09 11:18 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: futsaowingchun]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Who are Chan Wan Shan, Leung Bik, Cho Chong man, Cho on, Yuan ng San all seem to be senior or equal to Ip man in training some were his teacher as In CW Shan. Of CWShan's last 16-18 students who are they? It seems that Wing Chin was a dying art until people found out it was Bruce Lee's root system.

Who other then 80 year old Shan was teaching WC gung-fu? Did the other 16 students have students or was it only Ip man teaching WC? Fat Sao, is he equal or senior to CW Shan or Ip man?


Edited by Neko456 (02/10/09 11:20 AM)
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#413883 - 02/10/09 06:57 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cl0D1zzlFA

Think I got it this time.




Hi.

Ok, I see a form.

Apart from it being a form what can a person do with it?

Would this carry on to two man drills?

If so what kind of drills and how?

I hope I don't come over as being negative. I am just curious.

I think I can see
Cross hands which might relate to a parry/ redirect.
Upper cuts, straight punches, parries catch grab etc plus there will be other things I suppose if I studied the form in greater detail I could probably work out.

So what would happen?

Some forms of in-close fighting drills?

You mentioned about trying the skills out on a boxer or
someone doing a take down?
I dont think it is that easy to catch/ redirect good fast punches or work out counters to good takedowns with out extensive and long term sparring.
So how would original WC have been trained?


Edited by Olderman (02/10/09 06:58 PM)

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#413884 - 02/10/09 07:59 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: Olderman]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Neko - sorry, thought you were talking about Ip man's students... most of his contemporaries have schools that are still intact today - they just don't train outside of china or even in hong kong as much. Yes, we can blame it on bruce lee

Olderman - do you train WC? Your questions have been asked and answered on this and a million other forums before. Search around and you'll get as many answers. However, I think you answered your own question "I dont think it is that easy to catch/ redirect good fast punches or work out counters to good takedowns with out extensive and long term sparring."
That's pretty much all it comes down to - how hard are you willing to work at it? If the answer is 'not much', any MA will be useless.

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#413885 - 02/10/09 11:21 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Neko will try to answer. You have confused several generations.

Chan Wah and Leung Bik learned from Leung Jan who learned from Red Boat Wong Wah bo.
Cho on or Cho family comes from Red Boat Yik Kam. Wong Wah bo junior according to some. Cho Family from different village and had nothing to do with version passed from Leung Jan until they met up with Yip Man students in 60s-70s. It's a seperate line and preserves the older 1 form with 4 sections as opposed to the 3 forms that came about when Leung Jan and Wong Wah Bo broke the 1 long form down.

Chu Chong Man is Weng Chun passed on from Fung Sui Ching who learned from Sum Kam from red boats. While related its not the same as Wing Chun. There is debate on this.

Yuen Kai Shan teachers vary by story version. Was a friend of Yip Man and trained at Ng Chung So's school with Yip Man and many others. This school was the wing chun get together place of its day in Fatshan. Lots of cross pollination.

Yip Man was first to teach large public classes. Leung Jan had many students. My wing chun comes from his student Chan Kwai via his nephew. Most kept their wing chun to themselves or only taught family. It was a rich mans art hence not widely spread. This is why its hard to find other versions from Chan Wah too.

For example around 1918 Pao fa Lein charged $2000 U.S. silver dollars just to become a student plus regular fees after that. That would be maybe $100,000. today or more just to be allowed to take lessons.

Even those close to Yip Man paid huge sums to learn the good stuff. Ho kam Ming gave Yip the money his parents had given him to start a business to learn. I think the amount I heard was $30,000. U.S.

You can see why folks kept what they learned secret. Most paid a great deal for the information.

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#413886 - 02/11/09 04:01 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: Neko456]
futsaowingchun Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 87
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:

Who are Chan Wan Shan, Leung Bik, Cho Chong man, Cho on, Yuan ng San all seem to be senior or equal to Ip man in training some were his teacher as In CW Shan. Of CWShan's last 16-18 students who are they? It seems that Wing Chin was a dying art until people found out it was Bruce Lee's root system.

Who other then 80 year old Shan was teaching WC gung-fu? Did the other 16 students have students or was it only Ip man teaching WC? Fat Sao, is he equal or senior to CW Shan or Ip man?




Fut Sao is not in the same lineage as CW Shan or the others. It has a compltly different history.
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#413887 - 02/11/09 05:36 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Quote:


Olderman - do you train WC?





No I don't train WC. Well not yet anyway. Before I did I would have to see if I think it will be worth the effort for me.
In other words would it suite me?
That I don't know yet.


Quote:



Search around and you'll get as many answers.




I did a bit of sniffing about. It looks quite impressive.
Very short term minor conclusion.
I suppose any W/C man could correct me on this.
Be great if they could.
One of the( I should imagine many) objects of the forms and indeed the hand drills is to get control /domination of a limb.
Grab said limb and hurl opponent past the person who has control in to a wall of some description.
Intensive weight shifting and stance work required for that specific move.
Intensive training in sensitivity drills?


Or no wall available grab the limb in such a way that on hurling said limb will break. Or after beggining to hurl use the legs to enable a trip.

Alternative

Tie up opponents upper limbs and then use the legs to attack
the opponents legs in a different manner of ways.

But its back to the catching a fast jab routine.
I suppose using the elbows as hand demolishing might be one way.

Any comments from any WC men?


Interesting.






Quote:


However, I think you answered your own question "I dont think it is that easy to catch/ redirect good fast punches or work out counters to good takedowns with out extensive and long term sparring."
That's pretty much all it comes down to - how hard are you willing to work at it? If the answer is 'not much', any MA will be useless.



Normal counters to jabs,
The usual boxing counters and slipping.
Counters to takedowns.
The usual sprawl and avoidance.

Sort of karate with fist skills taken from boxing mixed with MMA.

I dont think all the wing chun instructors use that sort of thing I desribed although I might be wrong.
I dont use the things in WC I have described but they seem
to be decent techniques that could be used.

Be nice if a WC instructor could reply.


I am just sniffing about at the moment.

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#413888 - 02/11/09 05:43 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Hi. While I can see the lineage being important to some people. From my point of view I think the thing would have to work. For it to work (again from my point of view considering the amount of time I would be spending training it) then the decent applications would have to be shown.

Sounds drastic I suppose but at my time of life I really think I need to see proof of the thing working under pressure.
Hope I don't come over as being blunt but time isn't exactly on my side.

Three years training is a long time. The wrong way.

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#413889 - 02/12/09 09:12 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
To Donchisau thanks for the update it brings alot of things to light and connects the lineage to where we are now. It also maybe shows why you do things differently and seems to flow more. I notice you guys do another form Siu Bat Gwe along with the other 3 forms its an Octogon invisible techniques pattern I guess that suggest a walking kata unlike Silum Tao. Thats is factor $ can hurt popularity.

To Fut Sau it does look like after researching your system Yong Chun kuen that things are done a little different as in the Silum Tao you drop the return crane hand and bong sau is done close hand. It seems less jerky and flows better though Lineage seem much smaller then Yip man's. I also notice extend knuckle or phoinex eye punching in Fut Sau's version.

To Olderman - Wing Chun is popular because it is effective and easier to learn then most Gung-fu system. The lineage quetsion only answers to me why it wasn't more popular during a certain period then it was. Training in either lineage woulodn't be a waste of time but just like any fighting art it won't cover all ranges completely IMO.


Edited by Neko456 (02/12/09 09:15 AM)
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#413890 - 02/12/09 02:04 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Thanks Neko but I don't want there to be confusion. You are confusing the wing chun from Leung Jan circa 1850 to 1875 to the fut sau version taught be henry Leung in new York around 1970 . No relation between the two. Different versions. We have a forth form but it is not the sui bot gwa you refer to.

Ours is based on the 4th section of the original wing chun form. With SLT,CK and BJ being the forms based on the first 3 sections.

It does get confusing.

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