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#413861 - 01/06/09 05:58 PM original wing chun
donchisau Offline

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

I hope I linked this correctly. here is an incredible clip of an original version of wing chun first form SLT.This form hasn't changed much if any from the time wing chun left the red boats.
You will see the internal side of wing chun and both crane and snake ging and the punches at the end are very important. Showing the start of bringing the slow body training up to real usage.

This is close to my wing chun. Hard to believe this has been put up.


#413862 - 01/06/09 09:42 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
pathfinder7195 Offline

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
No video found.

#413863 - 01/07/09 09:06 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: pathfinder7195]
donchisau Offline

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

#413864 - 01/07/09 01:51 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
student_of_life Offline

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
the video was all slow movement. it might just be me, but i can distinguish power generation methods (jing) when its all slow. just my ignorant karate mind i guess, lol.
its not supposed to make sense

#413865 - 01/07/09 02:11 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
Ames Offline

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Interesting clip, but what makes you say that this is the original style of wing chun? Not that I know a heck of a lot about this topic, my understanding was that this is a pretty debated issue in the wing chun community?

I like his movement in the clip though.

"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."

#413866 - 01/07/09 06:06 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: Ames]
ShikataGaNai Offline

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Interesting, Don. Do the CK and BT forms look similar in this style? It's cool to me because the hand forms and movements have much more flow in contrast to Ip family's more step-by-step structuring of the form. It seems logical to me, because the WC hand forms are never meant to be static. For example, a bong/lop/fak sao should be one movement instead of the 1-2-3 jerky stuff you see in poor, over rehearsed chi sao.
So why don't modern schools practice this way? Are the forms ever sped up from this tai chi speed? Is the end result (chi sao, applications, combat) more or less the same, and if so is one way really better than the other?
Man, thanks for getting me thinking! It's been hard since I've been away from Chicago and the school.

#413867 - 01/08/09 05:47 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: Ames]
donchisau Offline

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Going to give the abridged answer. there are several styles of wing chun that had no contact with others after from after the red boat era. Cho family has a line seperate from all others yet you would see the similarities with the vid. The video is pao fa lien a rare style not know to have shared with any others yet the elements are clear. it also shres eleemnts with viet wing chun which started in vietnam in the late 1890s to early 1900s and it also shares eleemts with early leung Jan students Lo Kwais wing chun as well as late leung Jan kulo wing chun. Yet none of these families have any ties with any other family . The only thing thy have in common is their founders ties to different Red Boat wing chun players.

Hence the only way they could have so many things in common is if they all had the same source and the source of all wing chun is the red boats. Also the styles have much less in common with the more moderen versions of wing chun both Fatshan and HK versions which have a great deal in common.
There is much more but I hate typing.

#413868 - 01/08/09 06:23 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

Sorry you had to leave Matt. Good questions. This style does not of The BJ form by name. There is a second part of the the first form that's not shown then they have Tut sao form then chum kui then juk sau form. What you know as BJ is in the other forms.

Originally there was only 1 form Wong Wah Bo the senior wing chun man in the Opera started to split the form into sections for teaching purposes . The 3 forms you know are from the collaboration of WWB and Leung Jan.

This style and the older styles in general spend far more time training the lower body than you are used to. They do chum kui, chi sau and the dummy in the low horse stance for example.
The other forms are not slow at all.

As for the end result. That is a hard question. One reason this type of training changed is that people didn't learn proper elbow position and usage. You can get very loosy goosy with all the circles if you don't learn structure and many didn't. Hence bad fighting results.
However if you learn the proper body structure and body usage then there is no comparison. This style of wing chun can be so different than what you have learned and the result so dramatically different in sparring and fighting that its like grade school math vs getting a ph.d in math.
It's all math but that's where it ends.

For example at Phil's at the time there was a group of about 12 Matt, me, Dave, Brian, Donny, Bijion and a few others all about the same general skill and knowledge level. There was another group of 8 or so just behind us that included Matt's friend Chris and Kent. Literally after about a week of starting to learn the Kwai family style I could cut through everyone like they weren't even there and without even trying to.A week before we were all in the same general area. Not bragging just trying to point out how profound the differences are if you understand how to use them and this was after just a week of learning you can imagine what things were like after a few months.

#413869 - 01/08/09 11:37 PM Re: original wing chun [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I know what you mean - what matt teaches now is light years away from where he started as far as effectiveness and I found that out by rolling with other lineages and sparring with other styles. I'm still his student, just in a sattelite kind of way - so the only way I can keep what I learned from him sharp is to continue testing. Chris and Anthony are the only other two that can fight like that. It's really cool. Kent kind of developed his own thing too, incorporating a lot of tai chi training from what i understand - but anyway...

So is this the style you practice? Where on earth did you find such a thing? What is the training like?

I ask purely out of interest in WC in general - a while ago I tried out a non-Ip style and really didn't like it. The conditioning was great, although archaic, but the technical learning lacked realism. I've been toying with the ever-aggravating problem lately of how to develop hard contact, effective WC sparring without it turning into yet another variant of garbage backyard-brawling. I'm sure you know what I mean

#413870 - 01/09/09 09:35 AM Re: original wing chun [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
My style is Leung Jan to Lo Kwai Yip style is Leung Jan to Chan Wah Sun. Chan Wah focused on the triangle Kwai is a combination of circle and triangle.How I learned is a long story. Short version is after I was certified by YIp Ching and Tsui Tsin Tin I thought I was good. I learned I wasn't the hard way.

You are in a great position to learn wing chun now. Do what I did. Find MMA types boxers etc who will spar with you in a friendly way. Stick to your wing chun. When you get hit,thrown or taken down stop ask them to show you what they did to you then look into your wing chun for an answer to what happend.
If you do this you will develope wing chun that works and looks like wing chun not backyard brawling. It hurts to learn this way but I guarantee you will find all the answers inside wing chun although not always done in the manner things were taught to you.. The key is getting up and asking that boxer to throw that same nasty hooking uppercut at you from the clinch time after time until you figure out what to do. I hope you are smarter than I am. Some things took me awhile and some broken bones to figure out.

Edited by donchisau (01/09/09 09:37 AM)

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