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#413676 - 01/15/09 08:07 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: MarkStokmans]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
And it wouldn't be called "kote-gaeshi" anyway...

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#413677 - 01/16/09 12:35 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: MarkStokmans]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I'll just add my two cents here for whatever it is worth. First, I agree with Eyrie, that defense against kicks relies first upon sound body movement and angling.

However, what's always taken out of conext, I think, is the level of ability of the kicker (or puncher) who exists in this arena more so than perhaps another stylist, especially if that person in vetted in harder use such as MT fights applying his kicks against a person fully aware that he is going to kick.

In that case, these individuals within their systems have actively built up awareness and detection of kicks, and deceptive methods to hide their intentions of kicking all the while appyling kicks.

This, I am unsure, can be overcome simply by adding defenses to a system that originally did not accomodate kicking and which would not have requisite 'time in' against competent kickers in active sparring/competition and use of kicks. The best wat to understand defenses against kicks is to first know how to kick and apply them well.

Also, just as an aside, even though I enjoy kicks and kicking, I have yet to personally see one used in a brawl or fight that has occurred in real life. Granted, haven't seen too many fights, but I have never seen kicking enter into these altercations.

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#413678 - 01/19/09 07:34 AM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: butterfly]
MarkStokmans Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5
Eyrie: as far as kote gaeshi relates literally to the wrist being turned no, it couldn't be called that. And yet I have called the leg kote gaeshi by that name because for me the name also represents a principle of movement which finds its expression in the technique on one limb or nay other.

Butterfly: thanks for the two cents. The point you bring up is an important one which we have certainly brought up ourselves on not neglected. First of all let it be said I have trained in various kicking arts, though not to master level by far and have also fought competitions in jiu jitsu fighting system where kicks are allowed.

Having said that though: the work we have done has not stemmed from the idea that we need to make Aikido work against MA's which have kicks. It comes from the idea that a kick is a basic form of attack which in Aikikai Aikido curriculum (certainly official Hombu curriculum) is ignored. That means that we have also incorporated kicks in the same way we would incorporate strikes and punches in aikido: not little jabs and punches trying to score points but real "shinken" spiritted attacks. Not unlike Muay Thai where they aim to kick through their target.

As for adding defenses to a system that did not accomodate kicks: it would be difficult certainly: but aikido and the principle of movement it knows, is actually versatile enough to deal with kicks based on the same principle of movement but with different circumstances and different technical applications. To me the fact that the keri waza we have found fit seamlessly into the overal aikido body of techniques prooves two things:
- a kicks is basic attack that can and should be included;
- aikido is ready for keri waza.

As for practical applications in "real life", unfortunately I have ran into situations (first hand) where kicks were the first things dealt. Now in the Netherlands kick boxing and muay thai are very popular, as is soccer so aggresive people on the street tend to kick more here. And I can tell you, it hurts.

Mark

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#413679 - 01/19/09 03:03 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: MarkStokmans]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
This, I am unsure, can be overcome simply by adding defenses to a system that originally did not accomodate kicking and which would not have requisite 'time in' against competent kickers in active sparring/competition and use of kicks. The best wat to understand defenses against kicks is to first know how to kick and apply them well.

I also agree with this:

Quote:

This, I am unsure, can be overcome simply by adding defenses to a system that originally did not accomodate kicking and which would not have requisite 'time in' against competent kickers in active sparring/competition and use of kicks. The best wat to understand defenses against kicks is to first know how to kick and apply them well.




Which is why I'd like to see more dojo's have specific 'uke development' classes, where basic kicking and punching skill is developed. I remember my first Sensei did something like this. He was less than thrilled with our striking, so he brought in a Goju teacher to show us basic kicks and punches, once a week for a couple of months (we mostly focused on punching though). Even though none of us became experts in striking from this, the caliber of our Aikido did improve, because we were able to work against more realistic attacks.

That all being said, there comes a point where you just can't train for every instance. And I think that eyrie is right when he says that other attributes built through regular Aikido practice may often help against deceptive kicking. This is a similar situation to the jab/cross combo. The beginner Aikidoka will often be tricked into going for the jab, meanwhile he gets flattened by the cross. However, more advanced practitioners, who have put the time in and worked against combination attacks, will do as well as anyone against these kinds of attacks by careful attention to maai, and timing.

The thing is, you have to start somewhere. And that place, as far as Aikido is concerned, is with simple attacks. I think most will echo my opinion here that it is difficult enough to get the hang of working against a simple attack initially, let alone throwing combinations at someone from day one. Most, however, don't go beyond this level, so they are unaware that Aikido does have responses to more advanced attacks (although I agree kicking is not often dealt with).

Which is why (talking to Mr. Stokmans now), part of my questions the need to really train against kicks to any large degree before one reaches a more advanced level. At that, point I see no problem with putting the principles learned against kicks, the clinch, groundfighting, whatever. That thing is, you have to learn those principles first.

(Just speaking in general now)
I guess what I'm saying (and I have been guilty of this too, very much so), is that to some degree we need to have some faith that the path we are being guided on is a good one; that the sites one will see on this path are of immense value. It isn't a matter of merely seeing, it is a matter of being open enough to see in a new way.

The answer to 'what would I do against technique X' is always the same: do the best thing in answer to it, at the right time. With an empty and open mind (the kind of mind Aikido seeks to cultivate) this answer should (ideally) always present itself instantaneously. And I think that the cultivation of this mind might be the heart of Aikido.

But what do I know? (not much)

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#413680 - 01/19/09 07:59 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: Ames]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Regarding the point about "uke development", I just wanted to say that IMO, the role of uke is the more important one - not just as a "training dummy" to assist with tori's development, but as an integral aspect of the art itself - and I don't mean just simply "taking ukemi".

Having come from a kicking art prior to doing aikido, I can definitively say this: Aikido is far more effective because of it's inherent simplicity (and complexity!). There are only so many ways to kick - and they all fall within 3 planes of movement - just like the "basic" strikes in Aikido.

Kicks below the waist are hard to defend - stepping in at the right time is tricky, but not impossible. Anything above the waist can be treated in a *similar way* to hand attacks, bearing in mind the joints of the leg work in the opposite way to the joints of the arm. By "similar", I mean, that a kick would fall in the same 3 planes of motion as a hand technique, and that the same principles of dealing with straight line or curvilinear motion in 3 planes would still apply.

Having said that, would I apply shihonage to a roundhouse kick, as I would a yokomen uchi? I doubt it... Could I? Maybe... if it was the "right" thing to do. Would it "look" like shihonage? I highly doubt it...

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#413681 - 01/20/09 09:42 AM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: Ames]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< The answer to 'what would I do against technique X' is always the same: do the best thing in answer to it, at the right time. With an empty and open mind (the kind of mind Aikido seeks to cultivate) this answer should (ideally) always present itself instantaneously. And I think that the cultivation of this mind might be the heart of Aikido. >>

"Instantaneously" implies motor memory, which implies drilling, which does not happen in my dojo. Not exactly an ideal world.

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#413682 - 01/21/09 06:37 AM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: iaibear]
MarkStokmans Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5
@ Ames: I agree you cannot train for every eventuality. And I also agree with you that aikido can prepare you for kicks. But my opinion is that a kick is not just an eventuality, it is a basic attack and dealing with a basic attack should be part of basic practice, not just advanced practice. We have a lot of variations in grab attacks ad defenses against every possible combination of these grab attacks but not one against kicking attacks. This te me is not logical.

@ Eyrie: dealing with kicks is very similar, I agree completely, but it is not the same. So firstly we are already largely prpeared to practice with kicks so integrating it is no problem but secondly it is different enough to warrant practice. In principle you only get one chance at saving your live in a real altercation, no use to start practicing then.

And Shihonage, yes, it can be applied to a roundhouse, its in the book as well. Same principles, similar movements, different mai-ai speed and hara sabaki. You would recognize it when done. Check out:
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=crOTNiXujIg for various techniques in training setting. There is a Shiho nage but it is not visible that well. There is Uchi kaiten sankyo which is comparable to the shiho nage solution. If you want I could send you a shiho nage example.

@ iaibear: drilling is nothing more than high intensity training with a lot of repitition. But it must start with training. and that is m point, if you do not train with kicks you will never learn how to deal with them well. You might get lucky and you might be able to use what other things you have learned, but I prefer to look at what can be considered as basic attacks and train against them.

Mark

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#413683 - 01/21/09 01:52 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: MarkStokmans]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Ames: I agree you cannot train for every eventuality. And I also agree with you that aikido can prepare you for kicks. But my opinion is that a kick is not just an eventuality, it is a basic attack and dealing with a basic attack should be part of basic practice, not just advanced practice. We have a lot of variations in grab attacks ad defenses against every possible combination of these grab attacks but not one against kicking attacks. This te me is not logical.





Well, I think everyone at some point needs to address areas of their training that they feel weak in for whatever reason.

That being said, I do see logic in not dealing with kicks from the get go, and instead focusing in on grabs, and the traditional hand strikes. In the end, those things are difficult enough to grasp on an Aiki level, and they do have enormous crossover (imo) to other areas of combat. By focusing on those aspects, the hope is that one internalizes the principles. Once that is accomplished (a major feat, and something I've yet to do to any great degree), then I think it is logical to apply those principles against different types of attacks and in different settings, be it against kicks or groundfighting etc.

That is not to say the principles couldn't be learned by the inclusion of kicking techniques, only that I don't see it being neccessary, as I am convinced that the first 5 -10 years of Aikido practice have little to do with learning anymore than the barest bones of self defence skills, and have more to do with grasping the principles of the art, and deeply expressing those principles in all your movements--both bodily and mentally. For that reason, I think the current method of relaying the information pretty much suffices.

Actually, I would like to see the focus on techniques decrease a little. I would like to see the internal elements brought out on a more of surface level of instruction, and directly be taught things like the standing posts we see Ueshiba doing in pictures.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#413684 - 01/21/09 07:07 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: Ames]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Chris,

This post tells me that you are on the cusp of discovering what, IMO, is and has always been in Aikido - except for the fact that the trees have largely been missed for the forest. Congratulations!

The principle reasons for the focus on grabs and te-waza is for the initiate to discover the difference between using physical and muscular strength vs using the fundamental physical forces of nature (i.e. gravity and the equal and opposite GRF, vector forces, etc.) and the basic physical principles that allow work to be done with less effort (i.e. levers, pulleys, wedges and spirals).

IMO, Aikido is nothing more than Martial Arts 101 and 102 - at least in the first 5 years. Like any course of study, there is always further education involved, that takes the initiate to greater depths and breadth, in and further afield.

But what I really wanted to address is this:
Quote:

Actually, I would like to see the focus on techniques decrease a little. I would like to see the internal elements brought out on a more of surface level of instruction, and directly be taught things like the standing posts we see Ueshiba doing in pictures.


IMO, Aikido "techniques" aren't like jujitsu techniques - even though they *may* look like them. Although, there are good reasons for starting the initiate off with jujitsu techniques, because they teach the basic physical principles and laws of physics and basic anatomy.

So, rather than view Aiki "techniques" as a sort of related cousin to jujitsu in terms of doing something to someone, my suggestion would be to look upon them as a "way" to practice Aiki (aka Aiki-Do).

IOW, the question is not what other forms of practice (e.g. standing post etc.) that could be included, but WHAT is being practiced, and HOW to practice "it". It's kinda like saying the form of taiji is what develops the internal elements (which isn't true BTW), rather than developing the internal elements which are outwardly expressed in the form of one's taiji (or Aikido, or Karate, or insert other art).

I would suggest that the WHAT is already in Aikido, but the HOW is generally what's missing - and I appreciate the reasons WHY that may be.

Back on topic... I don't have a problem with the suggestion that kicking and defenses against kicks should be introduced as a formal part of a curriculum. That's something people need to decide for themselves. That said, I believe understanding how the human anatomy works and what its limitations are is fundamental. Understanding the ways in which the human anatomy can be used, and in what circumstances, as long range, mid-range and short range weapons is crucial. Understanding the strategic and tactical options for dealing with various scenarios is the basis of all martial arts.

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#423937 - 12/07/09 07:58 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: eyrie]
AliD Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 3
Hi if I may jump in with my opinion and the way I see it from a basic point of view.
For me Aikido makes use of the hyperextension of joints and ligaments more specifically designed around the arms as they were used in majority of samurai warfare.But a leg although alot stronger can also only be extended so far.
Simply put if they basics can be applied to the arm the same techniques can be applied to the legs.
Understandably there would have to be the awareness of the possibility of kicking and some training may be needed for this but the basics in place should adequately deal with a kick.

Thought: Irime into a round house kick and do a leg kote-gaeshi on the knee and I want to see the person who stands up from that!

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