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#413666 - 01/05/09 03:52 AM Defensive techniques against kicks...
MarkStokmans Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5
Hello, I am new to this forum so perhaps I am bringing in a subject which already has been covered. I scanned all thread subjects however and could not find anyone dealing with the question I would like to pose to you:

For the past 4 years I have been working on integrating basic kicking forms (mae-geri and mawashi-geri) into Aikido and coming u with suitable defensive forms (keri-waza). This goals was brought on by my breif stints of jiu-jitsu and muay thai training. I found if very peculiar that kicking was not a part of aikido curriculum. It is such a basic form of attack that any art pretending to be a martial art IMHO should realise that legs are effective weapons. During the course of this "study" I talked and corresponded to many aikido to figure out why keri-waza was ignored.

The result of this study has been a book Aikido, Keri-waza which I wrote and which deals with not only a theoretical and technical background but with a number of techniques. Now most people think I had to invent new techniques but actually the basic aikido techniques (slightly adapted to a leg attack) were sifficient.

I would like to ask members of this forum what kind of experience they have with kick attacks in their aikido training: if they have experience, how that is for them, if they miss it, etcetera.

Mark

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#413667 - 01/05/09 05:07 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: MarkStokmans]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Before I reply to the topic (which I think is a good one) I'm going to have make you aware that there is a 'no advertising rule' in effect. However, as I say, I think your post is interesting, and isn't the type of spam this rule was meant to combat, and I don't personally see anything wrong with having a dialogue about an issue you feel passionate enough about to write a book on. So I'll leave it as is.

Quote:

This goals was brought on by my breif stints of jiu-jitsu and muay thai training. I found if very peculiar that kicking was not a part of aikido curriculum.




I haven't spent an enormous amount of time in each of the styles of Aikido, but I'd like to point out that there are techniques against kicks taught in many dojo's out there, I know for a fact Yoshinkan teaches them, as well as Yoseikan (which has the most techniques against kicks out of all the styles of Aikido). Also, many Aikikai dojo's train against kicks.

The reason we don't see a lot of techniques against kicks in Aikido is, for better or worse, because there aren't a lot of these techniques in the Koryu Jujutsu styles from which Aikido sprang. As one of my teachers put it "Samurai didn't like to take their feet off the ground for a very long time", and this is for a variety of reasons, but one of the main ones is the armour they would be wearing. Many forms of more modern Koryu, such as Daito Ryu, which were made more for the civilian, do have kicks in the waza.

Quote:

It is such a basic form of attack that any art pretending to be a martial art IMHO should realise that legs are effective weapons.




Like I say, I just want to point out that there are some techniques in Aikido which do make use of kicks--Yoshinkan for example. The very first waza of Daito Ryu (Ippon Dori) also has a kick.

Quote:

During the course of this "study" I talked and corresponded to many aikido to figure out why keri-waza was ignored.





I'd like to hear some of their perspectives on this (and your doing so will be a good way to prove that I am right in my belief that you aren't just advertising, but interested in having a disscussion of this topic).

Quote:

Now most people think I had to invent new techniques but actually the basic aikido techniques (slightly adapted to a leg attack) were sifficient.





Yep, this is what I have been taught as well, and, from my experiance is fairly common. Many of the basic movements of Aikido work well to either

a) avoid the kick
b) take the kick and dissipate some of it's power

Of course, you have to actually train against kicks to make use of this.

Quote:

I would like to ask members of this forum what kind of experience they have with kick attacks in their aikido training: if they have experience, how that is for them, if they miss it, etcetera.





Certainly, in my Aikido training, my experiance with kicks has been less than someone in Karate or Muay Thai. A few things I have learned through Aikido is

a) Watch the signals: often if someone is about to kick, something will alert you to that. From here you do what you do against a punch: go outside the range of the attack, or inside, either grabbing the leg, or applying some other technique which takes advantage of your temporaliy unbalanced opponent.

b) From an Aikido and Daito Ryu standpoint, I've rarely seen nage appply a kick until uke was already in a disadvantaged position. Often, a kick thrown by nage serves the secondary function of applying further tension into the controlled joint.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#413668 - 01/08/09 02:31 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: Ames]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Anyone else care to weigh in on using Aikido against kicks?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#413669 - 01/08/09 03:31 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: MarkStokmans]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post16013285

There is a lot of stuff re kicking and Aikido in this thread, especially in the first few pages.

I once read Ueshiba Sensei didn't like taking his feet off the ground too much. It was some concept of seperating yourself from the earth, which would decrease your power/balance.

I have heard similar ideas in Chinese IMA. Force is grounded through strong, rooted posture, and generated the same way. As a Xing Yi Quan teacher once said to me, his Chinese teacher would tell him to "Strike with the earth!"
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#413670 - 01/08/09 04:09 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: Prizewriter]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Prize, yeah I realized that we had somewhat recently talked about kicking in Aikido, but to be honest, I kind of feel that thread degenerated and the topic hadn't been explored fully. Also, I'd like to explore this topic on more of 'how an Aikidoka might deal with kicks' level. If that makes sense.

Interesting, that tidbit about Ueshiba though. I have heard the same thing about Sogaku Takeda.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#413671 - 01/09/09 02:42 AM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: MarkStokmans]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Mark,

I must say it's a little disingenious to introduce your book as a point of discussion after the fact. It might've been a different proposition had you asked for comments and discussion prior to writing the book.

Nevertheless, congratulations on your new book - perhaps any ensuing discussion here may help bloster sales.

I think it generally depends on the school and instructor - geri waza and defenses against kicks may be dealt with in some depth or not at all. My personal feeling is that it's not generally dealt with formally as part of a curriculum because all kicking techniques can generally be countered quite easily with taisabaki or by adjusting one's timing and ma-ai.

IOW, it's generally not necessary to "defend" against a kick, when quite often a well-timed irimi is all that's needed - and whatever happens next is usually dependent on uke's recovery response (if any) which most likely dictates any subsequent "technique".

But, I'm sure your book would be a good resource to give people ideas of what kind of techniques *could* work.

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#413672 - 01/13/09 11:18 AM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: eyrie]
MarkStokmans Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5
Dear all. Thanks for the reactions. I do realize that my post is just on the edge of advertising a commercial product. However, it is not meant as such. If I ever wanted to make mondo bucks off of a book I wouldn't write one about Aikido and certainly not one about Aikido and kicks.

I did not find this forum during my first research but did visit some others. I guess my forum searching skills were not that good. So now, as for the subject.

The attention given to kicks as described by Ames is not one which I recognize. (I have limited my reserach to Aikikai Aikido by the way). I do know that many dojo teach techniques at times, but there is a difference between touching on the subject at times and making it a fixed part of curriculum and training.

There are many reasons given not to train in Keri-waza. What I mean by Keri-waza buy the way is techniques to defend against kicks. Uke is using kicks, not tori. (geri-waza by the way Eyrie has more to do with activities at the end of the digestive tract as I have been told). The most common are: too dagerous for uke (ukemi concerns), a kick is not really dangerous, uke's balance is compromised because he lifts a foot from the floor, training in regular aikido waza gives you enough tools to deal with a kick, the tradition argument I have encountered a lot (as Ames states as well) and one nice one: 'Kicks are not necessary in Aikido. Animals use their feet, not humans.' Since my first conclusions and counters to these arguments wich are included in the book, I have yet to encounter new reasons why there are no kicks. What I have seen however that the reasoning behind the arguments is not always reasonable.

What is interesting as well is to see why there should be kicks in aikido. A kick is a lickely attack nowadays, seeing as we don't wear armour anymore (;-). Besides that uke's get better at ukemi, their range of attacks is larger, tori is more aware to uke's offensive capablities; working with a weapon of a different length teaches tori to have more flexibel view on ma-ai. Liberness, flexibility, balance, martial sense, endurance, it all improves. An aikido that can kick well, and that can defend against kicks is a more complete aikidoka.


Mark


Edited by MarkStokmans (01/13/09 11:21 AM)

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#413673 - 01/14/09 12:45 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: MarkStokmans]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Mr. Stokmans, thanks for the reply.

I don't understand this comment:

Quote:

the tradition argument I have encountered a lot (as Ames states as well) and one nice one: 'Kicks are not necessary in Aikido. Animals use their feet, not humans.'




Because, reading my post again, I don't think I said anything like that. Moving past that, you say

Quote:

What is interesting as well is to see why there should be kicks in aikido. A kick is a lickely attack nowadays, seeing as we don't wear armour anymore (;-). Besides that uke's get better at ukemi, their range of attacks is larger, tori is more aware to uke's offensive capablities; working with a weapon of a different length teaches tori to have more flexibel view on ma-ai. Liberness, flexibility, balance, martial sense, endurance, it all improves. An aikido that can kick well, and that can defend against kicks is a more complete aikidoka.





Which I (mostly) agree with. Stanley Prannin had a nice article a few years back on what he see's as the importance of better training in attacks for uke's, so that the attacks are more realistic.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#413674 - 01/14/09 04:30 PM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: Ames]
MattyChi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 177
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
I would be interested to see the effects of using kotegaish on someone's ankle in the same way as a wrist haha.

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#413675 - 01/15/09 03:19 AM Re: Defensive techniques against kicks... [Re: MattyChi]
MarkStokmans Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5
Chris: sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean you were saying that humans don't use their legs. I was actually stating two different arguments I have heard in too short a sentence I can now see.

Tha tradition argument, in other words, deffense against kick attacks are traditionaly not part of the technical background of aikido so we don't do it, is often encountered. That is what I meant. People who talk with disdain about kicks because they feel it is too base a form of attack,....well, let's say it is a different argument (a slightly ridiculous one in my honest opinion) all together.

Matty: a kote gaeshi is possible. But you won't see an exact replica of the kotegaeshi to a wrist (because the wrist joint is different than an ankle joint). However the basic body movements and movement principlise for kote gaeshi on a wrist can be used on a leg (if you manage to catch the leg) and so we call that technique kote gaeshi.

The effect by the way is bringing uke to the ground in quite a convincing manner.

Mark

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