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#413523 - 01/21/09 12:14 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: harlan]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Wow Harlan, I guess that's what I get for trying to meet you halfway, huh? Actually that is NOT what I was saying. It seems that in order to make a post without being jumped on, I most qualify every last little bit of what I say. Fine.

What I meant was in regard to this that you said:

Quote:

Fact is, plenty of places, in work, and in dojos, push out people that don't fit. It's a mutual process of acclimation, and acceptance...or the new guy is out the door. As a woman, having to hold my own in a male dominated profession (at one point)...this was my experience. Even more directly, the men I interviewed were quite candid...'If I don't like you...you are gone. There are ways to make people quit.'





No, I don't particularly like this practice. But my point is that it does happen, and it is natural that it will continue to happen. The issue is that when, in your example, you are pushed out based on no other criteria than being a woman, or a homosexual is pushed out based on nothing other than them having the sexual orientation.

In other words, in one enviroment a person's personality may make for a great general work environment, while in another it makes for distracting one...it depends on the general tenor of that setting. It stands to reason that someone who doesn't gel with everyone else probably won't work there very long. Right or wrong, this is my experiance.

This is seen in the dojo many times, especially tradional ones where people don't care about basic manners, or address the teacher in a proper way. In many dojo's in Japan, this is a good enough reason for expulsion. Yet, in a boxing gym, for example, the same type of behavior might be perfectly acceptable, whearas bowing and shouting 'OSU!' to everything the coach said would not go off too well in the long run.

I think that a bigger issue, and the main one I tried to address in the overall context of my post, was when someone doesn't gel with people for no other reason than a pre-existing bias regarding the group the person belongs to. Which is why there are laws against this.

My post was SO OBVIOUSLY not "it [being] perfectly acceptable to push people out of the dojo based on 'personality'", that I wonder if you

a) even read it
b) are just looking for something to pick apart, seperate from it's context, and start an argument.
c) have just genuinly mistook what I said.

I hope it is 'c', and that this post has clarified things for you.



--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/21/09 12:15 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#413524 - 01/21/09 12:20 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Ames]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Oh no...just asking for clarification. You said it was alright...and you admit you were not clear in your wording. Not uber-careful in how you address every single word. Not that that doesn't happen to us all. As usual, you have a penchant for taking posts personally.

Thanks for the clarification. Good to know we are all on the same page...that discrimination occurs. The question is: when is it acceptable to discriminate? By your standards it shouldn't be on sexual preference. Regardless of the 'commercial' world of MA, where if your money is green I suspect the discrimination will be more covert/subtle, in the non-commercial world...I think discrimination can be much more overt. I've personally heard good teachers say, 'I won't teach someone I don't like.' Period. Could be because one is gay, gaijin (sp?), female, etc. Is it 'okay' to say, 'You don't fit in?'

Myself...I see the world through a Marxian lens: it's all about power and politics...about haves and have-nots...and small people taking advantage when there is a lack of...moderation.

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#413525 - 01/21/09 01:09 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: harlan]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

As usual, you have a penchant for taking posts personally.




Yes, I take posts that are directed at me (in reply to me) personally...especially so when the wording of those posts is vaguely barbed.

Harlan, I would do this in private, but you are not accepting p.m.'s., and you have yet to reply to the email I sent you well over a week ago now, beyond telling me it will be marked for spam. In other words, I have no choice but to do this in this thread.

It has come to my attention, that you some kind of vendetta against me. And before you say I'm reading too much into things, please be advised that other members have, on their own accord, noticed this behavior as well. So please, in the interest of getting over this, please don't deny it.

I'd like to say again, that I have no clear idea of how I offended you. Because of this, and your unwilingness to tell me, there is no possibility on my end to remedy the situation.

In the hopes of making my life less stressful than it already is, I'd like to suggest three possible resolutions.

1. You can p.m. or email me, or answer me here, and try to work this out in an open, unguarded way so that hopefully (sincerely, I do hope) a resolution can be established.

2. You can ignore my posts, and I will ignore yours. That includes backhanded somewhat vague snipes in my direction.

3. We can continue like this ad infinitum.

The choice, at this juncture, is yours.

...

To answer the part of your post which deals with this thread...yes descrimnation occurs regularly, not only in the dojo, but out there in the world at large as well. But this can only be descrimnation in the broadest meaning the word. Out society regularly descriminates against certain members of it (hence laws against things like 'disturbing the peace), and different dojos themselves have different codes of conduct regarding what is deemed at proper behavior, as do most corporations, job sites, etc. To get into why one can be considered 'correct' and the other 'wrong' would require a legthy discussion about society, laws, ethics and so.

But the overall point is that discrimination based on bigotry is a different beast altogether, and is not tolerated by our laws, and by this we know that it is not tolerated by the majority of the population.

So to answer your question, yes discrimnation does occur, in some form or another, and it could be said that discrimnation (in the broadest sense) is a sociological neccisity to preserve culture. On the other hand, it has been found that discrimnation based on bigotry or stereotypes is corrosive to the fabric of our society.

* * *

Going back to the beginning of my post, I do hope we can find a solution to this problem we seem to be having.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/21/09 01:29 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#413526 - 01/21/09 02:06 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Ames]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
If you insist on turning every post I make into some perceived insult, it is of not my making. Where in the world, did you get the idea that I have any personal feelings for you whatsoever? 'Vendetta?' Prove it...what evidence of any vendetta is there...other than you trying to twist every reply I make to your posts into some kind of insult.

If you are, perhaps, alluding to my previous signature, which seemed to ruffle your feathers...get over yourself. It wasn't directed at you. As for you reading into my not taking PMs...my box is full anyway. Therefore, the note in my profile to use e-mail to contact me. That does not, however, mean I am obligated to respond to every enquiry from every pipsqueak with ego issues. Frankly, taking a 'zen' perspective, I am beginning to wonder who actually has some kind of agenda here? You know, it's said that one only sees in others what is really in one's self.

I am very sorry to have to say this...but you are of no consequence to me whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I recall wishing you well (in the forum backroom) when you became moderator of the Asian forum. Or is your memory as selective as your desire to single ME out of all the other posters on this forum for 'special' attention?

You know...if you simply can't control yourself...you can make friends with the 'Ignore' button. I promise...I won't miss your attention.


Quote:



It has come to my attention, that you some kind of vendetta against me.--Chris



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#413527 - 01/21/09 02:30 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Ames]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Ames wrote..

"It seems that in order to make a post without being jumped on, I most qualify every last little bit of what I say."

One could argue that this is exactly the way you treated Brians post.

Personally, I knew exactly what he meant.

I think the comment about health issues is completely valid as well, though not politically correct.

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conten...alcode=intjepid

"CONCLUSION: In a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban centre are now experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by all men in Canada in the year 1871."
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#413528 - 01/21/09 03:26 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: harlan]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Okay Harlan, I guess I and several others here are seeing things. Point noted. And as I guessed, you would deny that a problem even exists. If you truly had no issue with me, then why didn't you just say so in your email, rather than telling me that all further emails of mine would be sent to the spam bin? Five words too much to ask from you? Give me a break. From this point on, I hope to have no further direct interaction with on this forum. In other words, stay out of my way, and I'll stay out of yours.

Also, please don't try to put any 'Zen' platitudes on this, because it can obviously be reversed back to you! (that is the point after all, right?)

* * *

McSensei--Do you or do you not feel that that comment Brian made should be deemed as homophobic? If not, please explain why. Because that seems to be the issue here, yet no one has expressed why I was incorrect in calling it that. So, please, argue away! and tell me precisely what I 'misinterpreted' in his post, that has since been qualified. Because nothing has beyond 'that's just how I feel'. Great. Still homophobic though.


egarding that study, yes gay men currently have a shorter life than other men in a comparible catagory, mostly due to HIV/AIDS. So what? That doesn't address the fact that 80% of AIDS cases involve HETEROSEXUAL's.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/women/resources/factsheets/women.htm

--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/21/09 03:32 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#413529 - 01/21/09 03:32 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Ames]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I know you need to hear that 'you are right'...so...'you are right'...you have been projecting on me...since the very first post you addressed at me...long before this thread.

But I'd like to move on, and accept that you and these mysterious 'others' that like to talk behind peoples backs, have 'been seeing things'.

I've also requested that this thread be closed. Too much derailing, and the OP basically indicated that she thought the thread had served its purpose.


Quote:

Okay Harlan, I guess I and several others here are seeing things. Point noted. And as I guessed, you would deny that a problem even exists. If you truly had no issue with me, then why didn't you just say so in your email, rather than telling me that all further emails of mine would be sent to the spam bin? Five words too much to ask from you? Give me a break. From this point on, I hope to have no further direct interaction with on this forum. In other words, stay out of my way, and I'll stay out of yours.

Also, please don't try to put any 'Zen' platitudes on this, because it can obviously be reversed back to you! (that is the point after all, right?)

* * *

McSensei--Do you or do you not feel that that comment Brian made should be deemed as homophobic? If not, please explain why. Because that seems to be the issue here, yet no one has expressed why I was incorrect in calling it that.

Regarding that study, yes gay men currently have a shorter life than other men in a comparible catagory, mostly due to HIV/AIDS. So what? That doesn't address the fact that 80% of AIDS cases involve HETEROSEXUAL's.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/women/resources/factsheets/women.htm

--Chris



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#413530 - 01/21/09 03:35 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: harlan]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

I know you need to hear that 'you are right'...so...'you are right'...you have been projecting on me...since the very first post you addressed at me...long before this thread.





There we go...now we are getting somewhere. Hey, how about you p.m. or email me regarding when you think this behavior began, so that we can figure this out? Because obviously you feel I have been 'projecting' on you for awhile now...yet I remain mystified as what you feel I am 'projecting' on to you to begin with...again, we can do this civilly, by p.m. or email.

And yes, I agree that this thread ran its course a long time ago.
--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/21/09 03:38 PM)

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#413531 - 01/21/09 03:38 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Ames]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Oh yes...I agree to leave you alone. I'd use the 'ignore' function to make you happy...but sadly...it doesn't work on moderators.

Let's just see if you have the ability to do the same.

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#413532 - 01/21/09 03:44 PM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: harlan]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I'm glad we have come to this resolution. I will not respond to any of your other posts unless they are aimed at me, either explictly or implictly (which I take in good faith they will not be).

I think this is the best option, considering...

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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