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#413513 - 01/21/09 03:11 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Ames]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas


How long do you want to do this?

The FACT is I don't want to have contact during training with a homosexual. If you want to then have at it. Go take showers together for all I care!!

The fact that I don't want to does not make me a homophobe. My reasons are my business and none of yours so back off beaudreaux!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#413514 - 01/21/09 03:16 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Ames]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Ames, chill. Really. The only openly homosexual person on this thread has said she takes no offence in Brians post, and there is no need to don a cape and become 'Captain Pink' to defend Liza Minelli fans the world over

Personaly, I have a few openly gay friends, 2 of which quite happily tell me i am 'wasted on girls' and who used to joke that they were going to convert me I in turn told them I prefer my farts to rattle not go 'shhhhh' and that if I couldnt put my own in my mouth, there was no way anyone elses was going in there either

Gay isnt a different planet, we are all human, and friends take the pi$$ out of each other in the same ways, gay or straight.

Brian, you have to remember that being homosexual does not overide a persons selective process. This means that a gay man is no more likley to want you sexually than the girls you have trained with that havent either

If you're ugly, your ugly to everyone

on the health thing, you are way off base Borat
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#413515 - 01/21/09 05:03 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Cord]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Brian, you have to remember that being homosexual does not overide a persons selective process. This means that a gay man is no more likley to want you sexually than the girls you have trained with that havent either




DOH!@%^&*(( Nobody wants me!!!!!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#413516 - 01/21/09 07:29 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: BrianS]
Ilove2Hit Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 264
Loc: Athens, Greece
i think there is nothing wrong with stating that someone would not like to train with someone who is homosexual for any reasons.

id state the same thing. at my dojo we got 2 homosexuals. i am not homophobic or anything and just so you know one of my best friends (16 yrs of friendship) is bisexual. i just felt a bit uncomfotable/weird when one of the guys clinched me inside the ring and instead of kicking me or continuing the fight he was looking at the and smiling softly at me. ^^ lol. now i laugh about it. and when this happened it was actually very funny too. at my dojo we make fun of each other all the time even about the "gayness" of thw two guys and they have absolutely no problem with it because they know it is all fun and we are a group and nobody wants to harm them etc.

but there are people who have stated that they have a problem training with the two guys. i can understand why. but i dont have the same problems. why should i? an oponent that would like to hump you and things ur "pretty" wont be so likely to bash your face so easy :P lol.

i totally accept and respect BrianS opinion and statement!! as long as he doesnt harm or discriminate homosexuals it is okay!

it is okay not to like something and to say that in public as long as u dont hunt it down, destroy it, ban it or intimidate it.

ive felt weird or uncomfortable in some situations in my life that had to deal with physical contact with homosexuals but i never had a problem with that.

i think i know how they feel when i go over to another dojo where an increadible pretty girl is practising and we fight together. sometimes i just cant pull that high kick into her petite face shes sooo cute ^^

but not as cute as my 155cm girlfriend

that said, go BrianS!


p.s. dont worry there is a beauty out there for every beast :P
_________________________
do what you say and say what you do no pain no gain

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#413517 - 01/21/09 07:54 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Cord]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think the whole 'is it because I'm gay' has effectively limited the discussion; Served as a 'red herring', so to speak, for people to get on their soapboxes, use the issue to force their preferences on others...as if some internet posts are going to change anything in the OPs training situation.

Fact is, plenty of places, in work, and in dojos, push out people that don't fit. It's a mutual process of acclimation, and acceptance...or the new guy is out the door. As a woman, having to hold my own in a male dominated profession (at one point)...this was my experience. Even more directly, the men I interviewed were quite candid...'If I don't like you...you are gone. There are ways to make people quit.'

Either they make space for someone different, up to a point, or they don't. If they don't...well...they are a**holes of the highest order...and don't deserve your company anyway.

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#413518 - 01/21/09 09:04 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Zombie Zero]
stac3y Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/08
Posts: 42
Quote:

Well said, Stac3y.




Thanks!

For what it's worth, I think that many men who are freaked by contact with gay men (and I'm NOT saying this applies to you, BrianS!) feel that way because the potential sexual undercurrent is coupled with the fact that the gay man is, well, a man, and therefore (potentially) threatening. In other words, because a man is more likely to be as large and as strong as him, and also just might be physically capable of forcing himself upon him (the freaked guy). A woman would not likely be viewed as threatening in the same way, even though the potential for a sexual undercurrent exists.

A lot of the women I've talked to started out feeling a bit freaked by grappling with men for the same reasons I describe above. I haven't met any yet who haven't been able to overcome this worry after getting to know the men involved and just steeling themselves to do it and get used to it. Of course, keeping in mind that your partner probably has other love interests and none in you helps, too.

On a different, but related topic, I've heard one woman say that she thought grappling was "kind of sexy." The rest of the people (men and women) in the group looked at her like she was crazy. I commented that she must be really hard up for a date. I think it's about the least sexy thing going, myself.

But I wonder what all of you think about that. Is grappling sexy? And, no, I'm not giving out the phone number of the woman who said it is, so don't ask!

Stac3y
_________________________
Stac3y Karate Moms have Brass Ovaries!

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#413519 - 01/21/09 09:09 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: stac3y]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Human wiring is easily confused...and under stress 'sensual' and 'sexual' signals misunderstood.

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#413520 - 01/21/09 09:23 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: stac3y]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Is grappling sexy?




Can't say that I have ever thought grappling was sexy, even when I was rolling with the ladies. Not much sexy about anyone trying to break your joints or choke you out.

Quote:

And, no, I'm not giving out the phone number of the woman who said it is, so don't ask!





Fine. Be that way.

*reaches unenthusiastically for vaseline, phones BrianS*
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#413521 - 01/21/09 11:53 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Cord]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Alright, I'm going to try to clarify my posts.

Firstly, it was not Brian's comment that he would not feel comfortable training with a homosexual that bothered me. It was the 'health concerns' part (which, Brian's defence, he has since taken back).

The reason why this bothered me is complex, but let me try and explain quickly.

Harlan makes a strong point that sometimes people just don't fit in, be it in a dojo or in the workplace, or whatever. I see this as true, and totally acceptable, when it is just their personality's not lining up. If peoples energy is totally different, then it can make for a bad training situation, or a bad workplace environment.

But the issue that I have is when a person is made to feel unwelcome, not because of what they do, what they say, etc., but because of what they choose to do in their bedroom. So, when I read a comment regarding 'health concerns' that has absolutely no basis in fact, it bothers me because of the history of this kind of verbage.

For those that don't know, during the initial h.i.v scare, many homosexual people were fired, barred from gyms or other group situations. In many ways this kind of stigma has remained, as Brian's post shows. When I read that it bothers me, because the logical extension of this is that gay people could be barred from training in a dojo to begin with due to a somewhat paranoid, and groundless ascertion of 'health concerns'. Going past this, it could be used to keep openly gay people out of the workplace or school systems. It certainly has been.

Now you could say that this is just a small internet forum, and we're not changing the world here, and that does Brian's comment doesn't really make a difference. But I would counter that it is precisely these comments that, added together, engender a false fear of certain groups based on no facts whatsoever. The end of result of just dismissing and letting comments like this stand is that they become accepted truths. From there, peoples bias is allowed to take on a pseudoscientific rationale, and the exclusion of these groups could (and has at points) become widespread.

In many countries, gay people are executed or imprisoned due to trumped up issues of 'health concerns'.

That being said, I'd like to make clear that I don't think Brian is 'evil' for stating his opinion, nor do I think that it was his intention to suggest the gays should be barred from the dojo. So this might be an issue of me not connecting the dots and making clear why his 'health concerns' comment bothered me--because of the logical extension it implied (with or without Brian's awareness) and that we have seen manifested in our recent past.

The reason why I thought his post would be deleted is not simply because I disagreed with it, but because I was rather sure that it went against forum policy. I was wrong in that, as ZZ has made apparent. In another venue, I would not seek to censor Brian, but would surely debate the comment he made. But as I said, I was under the (false) impression that a rule of this specific forum had been broken.
To Cord's comment as this just being someone 'taking the [censored]', I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree, as I did not get that whatsover from what was said. For those who think I am 'just getting up on my soapbox', please see the recent thread about 'grappling being gay', to see that I don't have a problem with this subject addressed in a funny, harmless manner, and am willing to participate when that occurs. I did not read Brian's rhetoric as joking, nor harmless, and I reacted based on that.

Brian, for what it's worth, I don't think you are a bad person at all. I do think that the comment you made about health concerns was made out of ignorance (in the true sense of the word, as is 'unknowing'), however. But, as I tried to make clear, seemingly to no avail, though I disagree with your comment, I am not trying to make an overall judgement on you as a person. If it has come off like anything more than me disagreeing with your position on this matter, I sincerly apologize. I do hope that we will be able to get over this, and have pleasant exchanges on this forum.

And Cord, just to clarify, I don't have a pink cape to don. When I put my costume on, it consists of rainbow colored assless chaps, a pink s.m. mask, and a large 'A' (for Ames) written in lipstick on my bare chest (I prefer the 'deep midnight' shade).

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#413522 - 01/21/09 11:59 AM Re: A question on MA culture [Re: Ames]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Come again? You think it's perfectly acceptable to push people out of the dojo based on 'personality' and 'energy'? What kind of selfish rationale is that? Sounds more like an excuse...'I was here first/taken a dislike/am being territorial...and YOU don't fit in'. Almost sounds like what the OP was addressing...coming into a new dojo...and questioning if there exist 'ma cultures'.

So, if it's not a culture...what is it? 'Cause it sounds like an apologist rationale for...discrimination...to me.

Quote:

sometimes people just don't fit in, be it in a dojo or in the workplace, or whatever. I see this as true, and totally acceptable, when it is just their personality's not lining up. If peoples energy is totally different, then it can make for a bad training situation, or a bad workplace environment. --Chris



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