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#413384 - 01/12/09 07:06 AM Re: Adrenaline [Re: duanew]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day Duane,

I Agree with that (though at times I think I may have genes extending from the one's that said "here kitty, kitty")

I agree that freezing is a instinctual response to fear, I just don't believe it is apart of Fight or Flight (FoF).

I haven't actually counted them personally, but there are over 1000 separate chemical actions that make up FoF virtually every one of them is geared towards action or the consequences of action. very few are designed for immobility most act contra to it.

The sabre-tooth is a good example but it is also predator specific in the sense that, the freeze tactic may work against that predator. But against another human it won't.

There are 3 types of freezes
-one is the instinctual type that is hardwired into many animals (we have all seen the feinting goats on YouTube)
-another is the tactical type were you choose to freeze in the hope the danger moves on to a more active "live" victim
related is the hide, were you tactically freeze out of line of the danger (ie you see them and freeze/hide before they see you, or you see them, run and hide to loose them).
-the third is the one which us humans usually end up doing it's the feedback loop freeze or the search loop freeze (in/decision loop) in its simplest terms we can't make a decision so we freeze while we try to.

I guess in a way there is a type of freeze in FoF, it's the moment of inaction between the primary and secondary paths, the primary path goes straight to the body (so to speak) wich primes it for action, you don't actually act until the second pathway has consulted with the higher brain to tell the body what to do. It's from this point when fight or flight kicks in, if you choose to freeze then you override the fight or flights purpose.

I guess freezing is also related to the distance between predator and prey. if you step of over a rock and there is a snake two meters away you'll probably naturally flight (unless you're Steve Urwin) if you step over a rock and see the snake is 6 meters away you may just freeze to observe before backing away. This could be a form of decision loop freeze, where you freeze to assess.

OK I'm waffling on like an idiot know.

I don't see Freezing as a part of the FoF response but I do agree it's a possible fear response.

Of course it would be much easier if humans didn't have the higher order cognitive ability that gets in the way of our instinctual responses, still without that we wouldn't be discussing this on the net....... or at all.
_________________________
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#413385 - 01/12/09 11:40 AM Re: Adrenaline [Re: drgndrew]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:


I don't see Freezing as a part of the FoF response but I do agree it's a possible fear response.

Of course it would be much easier if humans didn't have the higher order cognitive ability that gets in the way of our instinctual responses, still without that we wouldn't be discussing this on the net....... or at all.




I am in agreement with you.

Duane

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#413386 - 01/12/09 10:31 PM Re: Adrenaline [Re: drgndrew]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
The freeze tactic is part of the FOF response. When Walter Cannon looked into fof he described a whole list of responses that the body undergoes. In the extreme cases fof will take place, however most of the time it does not get to that point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response

People who are afraid to talk in front of large groups of people will experience fof symptoms, but seldom do they run off stage in fear or become aggressive. Sometimes they freeze for a moment in order to regain composure and get control of the situation.

The FOF response happens everyday in life but we usually don't find ourselves to the point of FOF. But the symptoms are there like increased heart rate, increased blood flow, and many others. Just because someone does not run away in fear or become aggressive, the body and mind still undergo significant changes. When people go into their bosses office to ask for a raise that can cause fof symptoms. Talking in front of large crowds. Being at the seen of a bad accident. Being sixteen and going to meet your girlfriends parents for the first time.

When you realize that the FOF symptoms happen in everyday life you can learn to control the changes within the body to be able to make a more clear decision in stressful situations.

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#413387 - 01/13/09 12:45 AM Re: Adrenaline [Re: pathfinder7195]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Hey Pathfinder

This may come across as me arguing with you, but please take it as I intend it a discussion or debate

Quote:

The freeze tactic is part of the FOF response. When Walter Cannon looked into fof he described a whole list of responses that the body undergoes. In the extreme cases fof will take place, however most of the time it does not get to that point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response





Don't rely too much on Wikipedia, it is a great source of knowledge but it can be added to and edited by anyone and is not Peer reviewed. In the science community Wikipedia is not considered to be a scientific valid source.

That being said it is a great source for quick knowledge, I'm just warning not to rely on the info as gospel.

This is from a recently published article of mine re: Walter
Cannons findings.

"The fight-or-flight response, also called the acute stress response, was first described by Walter Cannon in 1915, in his printed work “Bodily Changes in Pain, Hunger, Fear and Rage: An Account of Recent Researches into the Function of Emotional Excitement”. His theory states that animals react to threats with a general discharge of the sympathetic nervous system, priming the animal for fighting or fleeing. This response was later recognized as the first stage of a general adaptation syndrome that regulates stress responses among vertebrates and other organisms."

He doesn't equate Freezing as part of the response.

Quote:


People who are afraid to talk in front of large groups of people will experience fof symptoms, but seldom do they run off stage in fear or become aggressive. Sometimes they freeze for a moment in order to regain composure and get control of the situation.





Exactly, they tactically choose to freeze to overcome the effects of FoF. They don't automatically freeze as a result of it,rather they still them selves, reflex which helps return the system to equilibrium.

Quote:


The FOF response happens everyday in life but we usually don't find ourselves to the point of FOF. But the symptoms are there like increased heart rate, increased blood flow, and many others. Just because someone does not run away in fear or become aggressive, the body and mind still undergo significant changes. When people go into their bosses office to ask for a raise that can cause fof symptoms. Talking in front of large crowds. Being at the seen of a bad accident. Being sixteen and going to meet your girlfriends parents for the first time.




Your spot on again. FoF is is activated regularly, infact research is revealing that low level FoF from work stress is linked to many illnesses. under FoF your digestive system is shut down or at least inhibited, is there any wonder that high stressed employees often suffer from stomach ulcers among other digestive complaints. constant low levels of FoF causes the heart to work harder then it's meant to for longer then it is meant to, How many high stress exec have high blood pressure and heart problems

Many of the problems associated with stress come about through our natural FoF response being engaged in situations that are not truly life threatening. but they are perceived as dangerous in our modern times (we fear a lot more now a days then !0,000bc, eg loss of job lost of lifestyle loss of face and any offer fear that keeps us working. honestly I think life was a lot less stressful in the times of the Sabre tooth then today.

Though your last example could involve some genuine danger

Quote:


When you realize that the FOF symptoms happen in everyday life you can learn to control the changes within the body to be able to make a more clear decision in stressful situations.




I have to disagree here (even if only semantically). Once it is triggered, we can not control the actual FoF response. What we can do is control it's intensity by controlling the perceived level of threat, essentially we fear the stimulus less (there are a few techniques to do this that are related to psycho-therapy). We can acclimatise to the sensations of FoF (adrenal stress conditioning), the more we do a fear inducing act the less we fear it.

my point being the actual flight and flight response is automatic and underneath our conscious control, what triggers it (the before) and how we recover (the after) are the only ways to "control" it.


now I want to emphasis something here the fight or flight response is merely the physiological activation of systems priming the animal for fighting or fleeing. The actual fight or flight are not technically part of the system but the actions utilizing the FoF response. The FoF is the preparation not the action. This is why Freezing is not part of the FoF response, the FoF prepares the body for action it does not prepare it for stillness in fact is mostly counter productive to it.

When an organism freezes as a fear response they basically ignore the FoF Response and uses another response (ie not fighting or fleeing). Fighting or flighting aren't the only fear responses but they are the only to that the FoF response is designed for.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#413388 - 01/13/09 10:14 AM Re: Adrenaline [Re: drgndrew]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Not everybody enjoys reading studies so for a quick understanding the wikipedia does ok. Freezing is part of the FOF process just like increased heart rate and breathing.

Here's several scientists that say "freezing" is part of the FOF process.

http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/45/5/448

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#413389 - 01/13/09 08:27 PM Re: Adrenaline [Re: pathfinder7195]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day Pathfinder

Quote:

Not everybody enjoys reading studies so for a quick understanding the wikipedia does ok.




I agree mate, and I am a little fussy, but I think that comes from having to cite "reputable' sources for academic papers.


Quote:



Freezing is part of the FOF process just like increased heart rate and breathing.

Here's several scientists that say "freezing" is part of the FOF process.

http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/45/5/448




The freezing they are referring to is similar to the "Orientation reflex" and is closely related to the startle-flinch reflex. It forms part of the perception of stimulus aspect of FoF.

Technically I guess you are right in that that you are frozen in a moment of orientation and assessment. This occurs during the primary pathway discharge of the parasympathetic. it's a confirmation of danger that is used in the secondary pathway to kick in an action.

though This isn't really the freeze that is often referred to in Self defence. I'll admit there is a moment of evaluation where the organism is frozen.

it is also dependent on the immediacy of the threat. using the Deer or antelope as an example. when a threat is presented the deer will orientate to the threat and evaluate it, this is evident by the deer looking up and around ears twitching etc. If the threat is more immediate as with a sudden attack then the default action is to Run, they by pass that evaluation, if there is no time to run they may fight and then run.

Of course humans are a little more complicated then deer, we have other often interfering traits such as pride, ego emotions etc that interfere with the the default setting. the typical pub fight is a great eg. it is often ego that prevents us from fleeing and steers us into fighting.

If a stimulus is suddenly introduced to us that is at a distance (ie less immediate threat then we will orientate and evaluate.) our flinch becomes an orientating reflex that allows evaluation (for eg the sound of breaking glass or the Abuse of a drunk directed towards you). we will probably still flinch in a defensive manner but our goal is to orientate and evaluate.

If the stimulus is presented suddenly and immediately, (for eg a hey maker thrown out of the blue or a projectile thrown at you) then our immediate response is a defensive flinch, we do not freeze and evaluate we instinctively cover to protect ourself or push away the danger (hence the defensive knife wounds on the palms). this is part of the primary pathway.

when the secondary pathway catches up then for all intent and purpose the FoF response is finished, remember it is simply the preparation for the body to take action. the body is not super charged and ready for action. The default setting is Flee, fight is the default setting when fleeing is not an option, freezing as an action, is either a tactical choice (in humans) or a consequence of a feedback loop. It is not part of the FoF and it is not what FoF prepares the body for it is stuff up primarily as a consequence of our ability to think or more accurately our inability not to think.

Freezing is contra to the FoF response, it just happens to occur in association to it.

Hope that doesn't sound like lecturing I'm just sharing what I've learned during my study and research. there is always going to be conflicting views and theories, which is good because it forces one to substantiate their own "facts" and opens up avenues to expand on them.

If every one agreed which everything we would be in a peaceful world but it would also be flat.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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