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#413300 - 12/25/08 06:40 AM wing chun punches
staticman Offline
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Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 15
after a couple of years training in wing chun i,m beginning to think that there arenot many significant differences between wing chun punching and boxing punches. also that different punches (uppercut, hook, etc) can be incorperated into wing chun. any opinions on this in terms of body mechanics, use of energy,types of punch, etc.

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#413301 - 12/25/08 05:39 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: staticman]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Bingo. The only major difference is the vertical or horizontal knuckles. I personally like the vertical because the striking surface is bigger and I find it easier to fire from out of position, or when your arm is away from your body. Other than that, both require an absence of telegraphing and use of the waist and tricep to deliver a powerful, snappy and efficient punch. The rest is semantics.

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#413302 - 12/25/08 05:43 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: staticman]
student_of_life Offline
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i'm sure their might be some abstract similarities, but i'm gonna have to say thats a huge negative. there are so many obvious differences in the two systems, from training methods to application that i would not say they have similar punching at all.

just for example take how bruce lee changed his punching method DRASTICLY after he studied western boxing and kick boxing. wing chun dosen't get as much "hip" or core twist behind their punches opting for a straight blast kind of approach.

a member of the forum, JKogas would be able to explain the bxing side of it much better.

all punching methods have things in commen fundementally, but thats as far as it goes i think.
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#413303 - 12/25/08 05:46 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
student_of_life Offline
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or i could be completly wrong, haha.
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#413304 - 12/26/08 10:05 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: student_of_life]
JKogas Offline
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I've used vertical and horizontal. I still mix them up, depending on what my goals are.

One thing for sure however, when I am punching with power (and thus more commitment, I always corkscrew my fist over (horizontally) until the little finger is up slightly and the thumb is down.

Another thing is that I tend to use the horizontal fist much more than I do the vertical fist because I am more protected against counter punching. Try as you might, you can't bring your shoulder up high when throwing with the vertical punch. Your head tends to stay up higher and more vulnerable, and there is more of a gap over the elbow of the punching arm straight in to your face. It's easy to slip a counter strike straight over a vertical punch.

Like I said though, I mix the two up depending on what I'm doing. Sometimes the vertical punch can slip through defenses easier, allowing for a good counter strike itself. Just depends.

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#413305 - 12/26/08 10:35 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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I agree with JKogas. The biggest difference that I have seen is the elbow position. Boxing punches do a somewhat better job of covering the head in transit, due to the elbow-up position (which also forces a horizontal knuckle orienatation).

I do use verticals quite often, though. They seem not to telegraph quite as much, and can offer good power as long as the other basic punching mechanics (hip torque, weight transfer, joint alignment, etc) are maintained.
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#413306 - 12/26/08 01:23 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: student_of_life]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Quote:

wing chun dosen't get as much "hip" or core twist behind their punches opting for a straight blast kind of approach




This is totally untrue, no offense. The reason you see a lack of hip power in wing chun punches is due to poor wing chun, or at least a misunderstanding. If you can find it, check out Ip Ching demonstrating his punches with footwork - I would argue that it looks almost like too much hip (although it really isn't).

The point about the shoulder jkogas made is right though, and I kind of forgot about that. In WC you don't use the shoulder hardly at all.

I guess it depends on how you look at it - I've studied both and have found so much more fundamental similarity than difference. And they have become very interchangeable.

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#413307 - 12/26/08 02:33 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
student_of_life Offline
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my point comes from what i've seen. i don't mean it to be gospel, lol. mainly, from what i've seen is that they tend to keep their hips "suare on" to their target. i don't mean it to be a critisim, hell we use a similat method in my karate training. i understand its merrit.
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#413308 - 12/26/08 08:41 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: student_of_life]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Oh I see. Yeah, the STANCE is definitely squared off, even in a side stance, but the PUNCH uses the hip. Kind of like a wind/unwind motion. Basically getting the whole body into the punch without losing speed or knocking yourself off balance. The problem is most WC students practice at a kiddie-hill level and never put any power in when they strike eachother, thus developing the squared off, ridiculously rigid straight punch pitter-patter stuff that you see so much. I'm not talking about 'chain punching' - that's a whole different thing - but the basic centerline punch. It should be the best technique a WC fighter has, IMHO.

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#413309 - 12/27/08 12:20 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
student_of_life Offline
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center line punching is such a good concept that i think it goes beyond any one style or method, it just works wounders to take the structure and ballance away from your target.
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#413310 - 12/27/08 02:30 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: student_of_life]
bcihak Offline
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While you are on the topic of punching in wing chun, what about the punching you see in southern praying mantis. If you look at youtube: Chu Ka seminar given by a man named Manuel Rodriguez, he demonstrates punching and some trapping. I have no real experience in either art but I know some people who have done Chu Ka and I always wondered about the differences in their strikes as well as their application of techniques. From what I have seen it seems as if the Chu Ka accepts attackes or draws them in more than in wing chun. I saw the sticky hand drill from wing chun and it seemed as if they use more strength to bash attacks away. I'm just curious about what you guys think.


Edited by bcihak (12/27/08 02:36 PM)

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#413311 - 12/27/08 03:09 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: bcihak]
student_of_life Offline
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"From what I have seen it seems as if the Chu Ka accepts attackes or draws them in more than in wing chun."

the drawing in strategy is universal, we use it in karate alot as well.


"I saw the sticky hand drill from wing chun and it seemed as if they use more strength to bash attacks away."

thats what you think, lol.
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#413312 - 12/27/08 08:19 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: bcihak]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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You should never be 'bashing away' an attack in the wing chun system. It's all about deflection and using your opponent's commitment against them - which sounds like a LOT of other MA's - but the difference is that after you have controlled, you unleash YOUR attack. If you 'bash' something aside, you have committed too much energy, or rigidness, to follow up with a fluid striking combo.

SPM and WC are actually so similar it's ridiculous to call them different styles in a way.

I dunno - the more southern CMA's I see, the less I think they're that much different from eachother period.

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#413313 - 12/27/08 11:50 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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I personally practice SPM and ShikataGaNai is pretty right about WC & SPM being very similar. Both train the arms as primary weapons and also focuses a lot on sensitivity. However, being that I have experience in one of the arts, I would say that the strengths involved are different from each other. 2 sides of the same coin I guess (but this is a different topic all in itself)

But as far as punching goes, its similar in that the attacks are very straight forward, not much of the hooking & arcing variety that can be seen in boxing. In my eyes there are differences in the vertical & horizontal punches. Wing chun's straight vertical punch ( delivered in the center) has less of a body behind it compared to a cross delivered from the back hand.

Different movements = different deliver of force = different punch
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#413314 - 12/28/08 02:09 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: IExcalibui2]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Here's an example of how to put power behind the square stance. Note that you DO have to move it to make it work -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbA0S0byQpE

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#413315 - 12/28/08 09:37 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
bcihak Offline
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Loc: Illinois
shikataganai,( I watched the video and then clicked on their sparring video) the one question I have about the sparring video is the continuous punching to the face works, when the attacker has gloves and the punchee has a helmet. In reality, wouldn't the one punching very likely break both of his hands. I also understand that the guy getting punched would not be in a good way as well. I'm curious about your thoughts.

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#413316 - 12/28/08 10:08 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: bcihak]
student_of_life Offline
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break his hands? only if he dosent make fists properly. you have something agianst wing chun? so far they use too much strength and would break their hands if they ever hit something.


Edited by student_of_life (12/28/08 10:20 AM)
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#413317 - 12/28/08 10:21 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: student_of_life]
bcihak Offline
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Registered: 08/12/07
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Loc: Illinois
I am not looking to antagonize anyone so lets be friends. I have wanted to practice wing chun since I was little (the whole Bruce Lee thing) but the opportunity never came up until recently. Now, however, I have seen a lot and practiced a lot of other things and I simply have questions. These questions are based only on observation not practical experience but the internet makes it possible to possibly talk to people in the know who have addressed these questions with actual practice. Like almost everyone I see things and wonder about them. Hsing-I, how would they deal with this or that, Pa Kua, how do they teach application with their art. In shooting, revolver or semi-automatic pistol, and so on... But remember, I'm curious, not critical.


Edited by bcihak (12/28/08 10:22 AM)

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#413318 - 12/28/08 10:34 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: bcihak]
bcihak Offline
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Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 298
Loc: Illinois
Now that I have clarified my position, I do not want to steer the conversation too far off what you guys are talking about but hitting someone with any kind of fist to the head is problematic. The odds of breaking your hand are pretty good unless you do a lot of things right. Maybe not even the whole hand but your fingers. The MMA guys wear light gloves more to protect their hands than to protect their opponent, after all they blast their opponents full force with their elbows to the head. I'm not against punching to the head, just aware of the risks.

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#413319 - 12/28/08 01:10 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Quote:

Here's an example of how to put power behind the square stance. Note that you DO have to move it to make it work -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbA0S0byQpE



I never said that you don't have to move...I think just about most MAs out there require some sort of movement & incorporation of the body.

However, I can do both punches and tell you that for me they feel different. Can they be similar? Yea of course, but theres a slight tweak somewhere (including the fist position) that changes something.
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#413320 - 12/28/08 02:29 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: bcihak]
student_of_life Offline
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theres a saying in alot of martial arts traditions thats says when you hit a hard target use a soft weapon, and when you hit a soft target use a hard weapon. which means your knuckles could break if you hit someone in the skull, or on the point on the elbow (ie. philipino "spiking") so its commen sense to use for example the palm of your hand to strike the skull. or you could be smart about it and aim your punches at the jaw or nose. acidents will happen, but i would definatly argue your point that the chances are "good" of breaking your hand. there is a chance, but how good it is, is not really debatable. wing chun, like many other chinease styles make use of attacking with the palm, so it is something they would teach you.

since you now have a chance to take wing chun, can i ask how your training is going with it? is it what you thought it would be?
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#413321 - 12/28/08 06:45 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: student_of_life]
donchisau Offline
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Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
First Like to say Woohoo! for another wing chun thread. Hope everyone has had a good holiday.

As we are all human with the same limitations etc there are always going to be similarities in fighting methods. The differences tend to be power generation and internal vs external power sources etc.

There are 8 basic punches in wing chun both vertical and horizontal fists are part of the 8.

The SPM vs WC difference tends to be in the power generation. SPM famous for the rib power wing chun has two gings the dog shake water method from white crane and the snake spits or attacks from Emei snake. The use of the waist comes from a method of dog shakes.


Edited by donchisau (12/28/08 06:45 PM)

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#413322 - 12/28/08 08:13 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: donchisau]
bcihak Offline
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Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 298
Loc: Illinois
student_of_life, I have not started yet but the opportunity may have appeared in the JKD forum. Someone is opening a school in Desplaines illinois which might just be a manageable location for me. I agree about hitting the head with a palm. It is safer than using a fist and can be a bit more shocking to the target.

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#413323 - 12/30/08 07:59 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: bcihak]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

shikataganai,( I watched the video and then clicked on their sparring video) the one question I have about the sparring video is the continuous punching to the face works, when the attacker has gloves and the punchee has a helmet. In reality, wouldn't the one punching very likely break both of his hands. I also understand that the guy getting punched would not be in a good way as well. I'm curious about your thoughts.




Hi, bcihak...

The controlled sparring video you saw is actually me vs. my sifu. Yes, you feel those shots with the mask on. No, he didn't hurt his hands, but of course I've seen him full-on rail the dummy so his fists are pretty well conditioned.

The school (VTSDA) is actually in Chicago's chinatown, and you may want to make the drive to check it out. I moved away from the area but still keep in touch and visit sifu when I can because I think his grasp on the system is one of the best out there.

Arthur - you're totally right. If I had the means, I would train in SPM for a while. The differences and the unique techniques it offers really interest me. Unfortunately, it's really hard to find a school that teaches it, much less well.

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#413324 - 12/31/08 02:39 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
shikata...you know my name?

SPM is difficult to come by, and without good instruction i find that students can get lost very easily in the proper ways to train. Its pretty unique in the states, though there might be school out in Chicago. Either a Jook Lum or Chu Gar SPM school should be around if there is a school around.
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#413325 - 12/31/08 12:27 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: IExcalibui2]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
There is or at least was a SPM school in Chicago. It was in Chinatown at the time. I spent an hour or so one afternoon there having a hands on discussion this was about ten years ago. The teacher was very traditional ie.racist. Did not teach gwailo. It was near the Freemasons hall in a basement of a restaurant as I recall.
Was only there 1 time so can't tell you much more.

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#413326 - 01/01/09 05:53 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: donchisau]
staticman Offline
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Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 15
donchisau-
you say there are 8 different punches in wing chun. also the 2 gings(?dog shake and snake spits)these are things i havenot heard of before-can you explain thanks

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#413327 - 01/01/09 04:52 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: staticman]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Sure will do what i can in a post.

I am guessing your are in the Yip Man family. Yip simplified a lot of stuff and cut other stuff out on purpose so lot's of info got lost unless a student he liked asked him the right questions.

8 Punches I am not talking about variations like turning punch and bounce punch are variations of the sun vertical fist punch. rather 8 seperate motions or types of punching groups. the eight are vertical first punch, horizontal first punch, hook punch,hammer first punch, reverse vertical punch ( this is a high to low punch), upper cut,back first( called hanging first)and tiger tail. Other punches like whipping punch cannon punch etc are methods that can be applied to any punch.

Gings. Ging is hard to teach and explain. Yip Man tried to simplify them because his students were more interested in fighting as fast as possible.

The use of waist energy is a simplification of white cranes ging. It is called dog shakes because that what it is from. Watch a dog dry itself when wet. That is pure natural fajing. Watch white crane people and you will see that side to side shake. It comes from the ab area area. Yip Ching talks about the waist energy a lot.

Snake ging is more advanced and subtle and is the real reason bui jee was said to be a secret form. Again it is simple to see . Watch how a viper strikes. The body rears up and is darts out hence biu ,dart . This is done in the normal shoulder width stance. It requires the training and use of the spine as well as the training of the pelvic and abdominal area. Yip tried to simply this down to elbow energy. Look at an example of wong shuen lung doing chi sau to get the idea. The other component is Yi or mind intention. Tsui tsin Tin is the only Yip student that is well known that combines the 3 as a matter of basic practice although no doubt others do it but don't teach it to everyone.

This is not meant to be a specific how too and is just a general description.

Hope this helps

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#413328 - 01/04/09 02:43 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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I left Chicago a couple months ago and am back in the Pacific Northwest (and much happier for it.)

Don - your descriptions of the 8 punches are interesting, especially in that Ip Man only taught one or two ways...
I'm currently training at an MMA gym but still keeping up on my wing chun practice. The funny thing is, all the punches in MT and boxing work with WC principles, the same as the straight punch. That one seems like a big 'duh' to me, but for some reason it vexes millions of kung fu people.
The secret really is there's no secret, I guess

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#413329 - 01/05/09 02:23 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
You got it Shikata the secret really is don't give up your common sense. Yip made changes to keep things simple and he let everyone come to their own conclusions hence so many different ways of doing things.

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#413330 - 03/14/09 10:30 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: donchisau]
SifuHax Offline
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Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 84
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
I think when done properly the differences between wc punches and any other punch are drastic (with the exception of mantis of course).

If you're truly center lined there's no way you can throw a punch and have your head exposed for a shot. Your on guard should always be ready for incomings unless your opponent is bridged, tangled or unconscious.
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#413331 - 03/14/09 10:36 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
SifuHax Offline
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Quote:

Here's an example of how to put power behind the square stance. Note that you DO have to move it to make it work -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbA0S0byQpE




That was gross. To me, nothing about that shows me it's Wing Chun. The essence of the art has been completely watered. Where's the center line? Where's the internal power? Where's the root?
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#413332 - 03/15/09 01:07 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: SifuHax]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Are you kidding? Just because it doesn't look like boxing robots, you don't think it's WC?
That is the square stepping that Ip Ching teaches. I think you'd be pretty arrogant to make an argument with the VTAA.

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#413333 - 03/15/09 02:04 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
SifuHax Offline
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Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 84
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
boxing robots?

how is that square stepping? His whole shoulder crosses his center. A huge no no in WC.

Why would I have to be arrogant? Perhaps I see something that you might not. Perhaps I am just a human that's been moved emotionally by an outside source. and that movement was bowel.

From what I saw, I don't like his art.
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#413334 - 03/15/09 01:44 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: SifuHax]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Ok, square stepping is my lame way of saying moving the high horse stance from one point to another, instead of using the pivot stance, thus generating more fa jing with the punch.
The punches/shoulder do not cross the centerline - they extend FROM it - I think what you're seeing is the camera angle. What this is is how you would attack an opponent from an ANGLE, not straight on. Obviously if it were straight on, it would be a different punch. This type of footwork is to immediately and forcefully occupy another's center and knock them out or back.
Besides, you should never say anything is a 'no no' if you don't know whether it works. You said yourself that you are inexperienced.
Rigid adherence to form only gets you so far. Most WC people are afraid to see their technique get ugly, but that's what happens in a fight - hence the 'boxing robots' comment.
I wish I could explain this punch to you better, but you would have to be standing in front of it.

Oh, and with all respect - watch with the insults. That's my teacher, who has more real experience with this art than most and we pressure tested our material at that school all the time.
You're not going to make many friends here slandering others.

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#413335 - 03/15/09 04:16 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Interesting, that looks a lot like some Xing Yi I've seen. Is there some cross pollination going on here, or is it just coincidental?

Also, I really like the body mechanics of that clip, I don't really know what others are talking about him not getting power from the ground there. It's pretty clear to be that that is EXACTLY where it is coming from. This is MUCH better than most any Wing Chun clip I've ever seen. Have anymore?

--Chris
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
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#413336 - 03/15/09 11:06 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
SifuHax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 84
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Quote:

Rigid adherence to form only gets you so far.




What's that supposed to mean? The first form will take as far as you need. Adherence to your first form is all you need to win any fight.

My girlfriend wants to spend time with me I'll be back to finish my post.

Most importantly, I'm sorry for insulting you. I just have an unusual descriptive way of expressing myself. I don't mean to insult.
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I am no sifu.

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#413337 - 03/16/09 01:43 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: SifuHax]
SifuHax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 84
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
can you elaborate on "high horse" and "pivot" stance? I haven't heard these terminologies.

Instead of punching all the way across like that, why not just chop? It's in the first form.

It is (and I stress is) a no no to have your elbow cross your center, let alone your shoulder. Throws your balance off and leaves your armpit exposed. A punch so extended is susceptible to a broken arm at the elbow.

Again, my bad on my "gross" comment. I'm sure your Sifu can kick ass. Anyone who really practices Wing Chun can.
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I am no sifu.

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#413338 - 03/16/09 02:43 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: SifuHax]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

What's that supposed to mean? The first form will take as far as you need. Adherence to your first form is all you need to win any fight.





Uh boy. I'm out.

Ames - mjwingchun.org for more vids.

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#413339 - 03/16/09 04:12 PM Re: wing chun punches [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Ames,
I thought the same thing about the vid. Looks a little bit like Pao Quan from the 5 elements to me.

RE: The first form will take as far as you need. Adherence to your first form is all you need to win any fight.


Forms are for training the body and rarely are visible in a real fight. The principle embeded within can be evident, but no fight I have ever seen looked like a form.
I used to think that forms alone would lead me to being a decent figter, now I know better.
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Chris Haynes

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#413340 - 03/17/09 12:55 AM Re: wing chun punches [Re: Fisherman]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
forms are cool but you can only get so far with forms..you need live person to person drills so that you can learn to apply those forms. Also having ideal form is not always an option or something that crosses your mind when you find yourself in a fight. I'd be more concerned with defending myself/hitting the guy and as long as those hits count, I don't really care what my form looks like because at the end of the day I'm safe.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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