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#413221 - 01/28/09 07:10 PM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: Olderman]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'It would be great if someone could explain what they are doing and why in a clear and slow way.

Hi There,

Personally I think a Goju Ryu or Uechi Ryu Karateka would give a stronger awnser than myself, as a Shorin Ryu kind of fellas we don't use this type of movement (ie Sanchin based), similair in places yes (Naihanchi) but not the same emphasis for sure.

However in relation to the hips going up and down, I call that tilting the pelvic girdle, it is achieved by pulling in the stomach and tucking the tail bone a little and where im from it's main aim is to connect the torso to the lower body for all body connection.

The Japanese is I believe 'Gamaku' and heres a little description I use - connecting muscles of the lower ribs to the hip joint this connects the lower body to upper body for additional ‘weight’ in your action. This also assists reaction force not being able to return into your own body.

Im sure the Naha-te guys (and indeed the Yong Chun White Crane guys) also are doing some clever things with breathing methods, timed in with the hip movement, but in Shorin Ryu the breathing just happens in a natural way to assist your movements.

sanchin, goju ryu example - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gG0369WGcPs

sanchin uechi ryu example (inc shime testing) - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=StuwFlSlwjc&feature=related
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#413222 - 01/29/09 04:21 PM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: shoshinkan]
Hakutsuru Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 12
Quote:

'It would be great if someone could explain what they are doing and why in a clear and slow way.

However in relation to the hips going up and down, I call that tilting the pelvic girdle,





I forgot to mention, we call that move with the hips "Make a dirty move". We've never really had to explain it any further.


-h

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#413223 - 01/30/09 08:20 AM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: shoshinkan]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
I am reading and taking things on board.
One thing that keeps occuring to me is that Trad martial arts techniques are always getting re invented and put in to other more so called modern disciplines.
One technique I would call it the bump. I have observed its use in chinese arts and karate and no doubt other arts.
It is or has been being taught in crazy monkey boxing.
Other techniques found in trad arts are also apppearing in modern S/D disciplines.

Recyling of trad techniques.

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#413224 - 01/30/09 08:22 AM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: Hakutsuru]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Ta for the good explanations of the techniques. Still getting my head around them.
Good work.

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#413225 - 02/01/09 06:59 PM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: Olderman]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
for the most part there is little 'new' in martial arts, IMO.

however there are different ways of training things, and for different reasons but if you look at any traditional martial art you will see similiar techniques in virtually all the combat sports, just different ways of expression and use sometimes.

Of course the human body tends to work in similair ways, and function dictactes more than form in certain arts.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#413226 - 02/04/09 07:58 AM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: Hakutsuru]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

They are all Chinese White Crane, what I do is Okinawan White Crane.




Now that's an interesting idea? I've never heard of an Okinawan White crane style, could you tell us about it?

Incidentally I often see people on these forums talk about white crane kung fu and then post vids of ancestrsal crane or shouting crane. These are all crane styles, but they are not white crane.

White crane is Bai he quan, bai=white he=crane, so vids labelled Zonghequan aren't strictly speaking white crane. I just thought it was worth mentioning as within white crane their seem to be technical differences, but across the crane styles there are some quite major differences.
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#413227 - 02/09/09 05:57 PM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: Shonuff]
Hakutsuru Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 12
I am no historian. Our Hakutsuru was certainly influenced by other chinese styles, like 5 ancestral fist for example (its the only one I know off the top of my head). Bushi Matsumura was supposed to have studied in China and brought back White Crane to Okinawa, where it was changed to suit his own personal (harder) style. His descendants kept studying and collecting new forms. I'm fairly certain that Bushi Matsumura did not know all of the kata we study. Now, I'm not sure which were the original forms that he brought back from china, but if I had to guess, I would say its the ones we call Hakutsuru Mei, and Matsumura Hakutsru. Of course, that's making the assumption that those forms weren't lost to time. I know my teacher has made an effort to preserve as much of the original art as possible, but without a time machine, its impossible to know for sure.



-h

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#413228 - 02/10/09 06:20 PM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: Shonuff]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Quote:

Quote:

They are all Chinese White Crane, what I do is Okinawan White Crane.




Now that's an interesting idea? I've never heard of an Okinawan White crane style, could you tell us about it?

Incidentally I often see people on these forums talk about white crane kung fu and then post vids of ancestrsal crane or shouting crane. These are all crane styles, but they are not white crane.

White crane is Bai he quan, bai=white he=crane, so vids labelled Zonghequan aren't strictly speaking white crane. I just thought it was worth mentioning as within white crane their seem to be technical differences, but across the crane styles there are some quite major differences.





http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl...l%3Den%26sa%3DN



NABE MATSUMURA brought the old Shorin-ryu secrets into the modern age. His name does not appear in many karate lineage charts According to Hohan Soken (1889-1982), the purest teaching of Matsumura's Shorin Ryu was carried on by Matsumura Nabi(c.1860-1930). He received training in the family style of Matsumura Shorin Ryu which also included the secret techniques of the white crane. The white crane system was reputed to be a secret family style that was only taught to immediate family members. In his later years, Nabe Matsumura was referred to as Nabe Tanme or "old man" Nabe. He was known to be a stern and disciplined teacher. He had only one student, Hohan Soken. It is said he was one of the top karate men of his time. He passed on his menkyo kaiden to his nephew, SOKEN HOHAN


I Hope this helps. I think the google search machine is a wonderfull thing.


Edited by Olderman (02/10/09 06:22 PM)

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#413229 - 02/11/09 06:40 AM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: Olderman]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Thanks Olderman. I was aware of the history of MS Shorin ryu but as I understood it Hohan Soken passed on one "crane" form called Hakutsuru, which though secret was to teach principles that would refine the rest of what was taught in the system and was not a system in it's own right?

My question was about the style apparently called Okinawan White Crane, as opposed to say Fujian White crane. The article you linked to is the first time I've heard of MS Shorins white crane elements refered to as a style, but I'm not convinced that what I think of as a style is what is being descibed in the article.

When Hakutsuru mentioned Okinawan white crane I was wondering if someone had collected all the miraculously appearing white crane karate kata into one place and based a fighting art on them.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#413230 - 02/11/09 05:02 PM Re: Matsumura Seito Kata and Kumite Clip [Re: Shonuff]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
I cant say. I looked it up out of interest.
It all gets confusing.
I should imagine(imagine being the word here. Realy I wouldnt know) that if someone from Okinawa trained in white crane and passed on what they learned then that got passed on further. Hopefully someone still alive would have the end result of those earlier teachings.

The "crane" form called Hakutsuru.
It would be nice if it was demonstrated and then explained exactly what it is all about.
Meanwhile I have started working on using a fast whipping action using my hip/upper body to generate power in my strikes.
I have attempted to use what was described to me about what looks like sucking in the stomach to train uppercuts.
But still seem to use my conventional method under pressure.
Beyond that I am just getting fitter and just browsing about looking for alternatives when the dooms day of lack of weight training comes.

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