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#412214 - 11/27/08 06:16 PM JKD kicks
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
This is really just a general question.

What kind of kicking is practiced these days in JKDC. It seems that people are leaning more towards the MT now, but I'm wondering if the Savate kicking techniques are still generally practiced?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#412215 - 11/27/08 08:48 PM Re: JKD kicks [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ames wrote
Quote:

This is really just a general question.

What kind of kicking is practiced these days in JKDC. It seems that people are leaning more towards the MT now, but I'm wondering if the Savate kicking techniques are still generally practiced?





That's a great question Chris. Everyone in mma favors Thai kicking, whereas I am leaning away from it. Though to be honest, I'm leaning away from kicking altogether. I am working my hands and clinch a lot more (though there are plenty of knees to be found).

However I have trained savate kicking for some time and definitely prefer that to the Thai style, even though I have done both. As I don't like kicking that much (particularly for street fighting), I prefer the savate style because there isn't as much commitment of weight into the shot as there is with Thai kicking. This is especially true with the fouetté (roundhouse), where the striking point is the toe of the boot/shoe. That's about the only one I use, though the chassé would be next on the list for me.

One reason I like savate is because it's a shoe art. Also, I can throw the fouetté and keep my hips somewhat square to my opponent, which I believe is critical. You're using a whipping like action, driving the toe into soft tissue working for organ pain. Keeping those hips square allow you to immediately combine these kicks with punching combinations (not that you can't do that with muay Thai though).

Another one of the main selling points for me was the fact that I could throw the fouetté from further out than I can the Thai round kick. The striking point being the toe of boot, compared to the shin, gives quite a bit more reach to stay outside with. A point worth considering.

-John

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#412216 - 11/27/08 09:09 PM Re: JKD kicks [Re: JKogas]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Interesting, John. Yeah, the one thing that strikes me about savate is that you don't seem to be as commited to your kicks, which is a good thing on the street.

Have you (or anyone) experimented with Savate kicks without shoes? Do you think they could be adapted for that kind scenerio?

I'm asking because I'm torn between continuing with MT or doing Savate at the same place (but for less coin).

The thing against it, for me, seems to be that most MMA gyms train without shoes, so when I go to integrate it into an overall game, I can see some potential problems in the future. So, I'm wondering if I could adapt it for use without shoes.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#412217 - 11/27/08 10:21 PM Re: JKD kicks [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ames wrote
Quote:


Have you (or anyone) experimented with Savate kicks without shoes? Do you think they could be adapted for that kind scenerio?





From my perspective, I don't think so. I'm sure you could get the timing down for the chasse...but really, their strong points are lost without shoes. Especially the toe kicks.


Quote:

I'm asking because I'm torn between continuing with MT or doing Savate at the same place (but for less coin).

The thing against it, for me, seems to be that most MMA gyms train without shoes, so when I go to integrate it into an overall game, I can see some potential problems in the future. So, I'm wondering if I could adapt it for use without shoes.





In your case, continue with the Thai boxing and just supplement the savate where you can. The basic footwork will be similar in many respects. The delivery system is virtually the same in terms of the way I do it.

Though in regard to adapting savate for use without shoes, I'd say it would be difficult. I have heard that in France, it is said that practicing savate without shoes is like playing tennis without a racquet.

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#412218 - 11/28/08 09:48 AM Re: JKD kicks [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
When I was doing JKD (about 3 years ago), we worked mostly Thai-style, full commitment kicks. We did practice in shoes, though.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#412219 - 11/28/08 10:08 AM Re: JKD kicks [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
A few comments on this,

Shoes, first I liked the idea of training with shoes for a long time, but then I realized that in almost any kick done bare foot, was even more dangerous with shoes (note: I have never trained Savate).

But, being a person who due to his vast intellect now resides in a warm weather climate (ALOHA!) we wear zories (flip flops) most of the time, so kicking barefoot is a reality for us in a street fight.

Muay Thai kicks are great, my personal favorite. AND exactly what my current instructor is training me not to use. The main reason is a good round house is a kick you can land on even a seasoned fighter, Muay Thai kicks are stronger in a pure sense but much harder to mask.

But a kick that lands, is always more powerful then a kick that doesn't...kinda goes without saying.

I now view Muay Thai kicks, like boxer strikes, very effective and very basic. My current Round house is very tricky and very difficult to learn, but it sets up so nicely in combinations.

John, you mentioned not using kicks in a street fight, and I can see the logic. But, one thing I have learned over the years is non MA's have a very tough time dealing with kicks, even if they block them they tend to do it with both hands, and leave themselves wide open for the follow up.

Here is a test I use on newbies all the time, throw a front kick (telegraph it) or a low round house, and when they drop their hands, dead leg it, and follow with a straight/cross.

Works like magic, (feel free to throw in your best Bruce Lee as well)
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#412220 - 11/28/08 11:56 AM Re: JKD kicks [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


John, you mentioned not using kicks in a street fight, and I can see the logic. But, one thing I have learned over the years is non MA's have a very tough time dealing with kicks, even if they block them they tend to do it with both hands, and leave themselves wide open for the follow up.





I don't disagree with that at all. In fact, you're right on the money. But I'm just overly cautious in my old(er) age and take a very conservative approach. I like to minimize risks wherever possible and take the shortest route to my goal. My personal feelings are that, if a simpler, lower-risk technique can replace a more difficult, higher-risk technique and be just as effective in a given situation, I should always choose the lower-risk technique.

Like I've always believed though, if you have the tools and can use them, that's great. Many guys who have been training for a long time can probably kick very well and make excellent use of Thai kicking. There is no doubt about the power and validity of such a tactic.

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#412221 - 03/27/09 07:02 AM Re: JKD kicks [Re: JKogas]
GungFuMang Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 50
JKD kicks have a centerline origination point whereas MT kicks are generally hooking (except for the push kick)

Both can be practiced with or without shoes, with JKD kicks making impact with the instep for hook kicks and the center of the hill for the cenerline kicks, shoes or no shoes.

As for street fights, stomp kicks or low side kicks are the least risk strikes I can think of, keeping your body away from the opponent while making contact with the closest target (foot-to-knee).

Stick with the JKD kicks, much better

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#412222 - 03/27/09 07:57 AM Re: JKD kicks [Re: GungFuMang]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
A savate kick without shoes wouldn't really be a savate kick. The extension of the kicks relies on the fact that you are kicking with shoes -- you'd break your feet if you did some of them barefoot without modifying the technique.

As already mentioned, savateurs can throw some kicks from a surprisingly long distance out: in part because of the use of the shoe and the way the kicks are extended.

The rules of savate competition are constructed in a way that encourages that sort of extension. I can see how that might have its downsides [shin kicks are very effective] but it does mean that savateurs do fight using distinctively savate techniques.

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#412223 - 03/27/09 08:04 AM Re: JKD kicks [Re: GungFuMang]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Rodney King teaches a Thai kick that stays more true to center than the traditional round kick.

And I still don't like them (kicks).

When you see the trouble that people have when dealing with REAL punching pressure from boxing style attacks, teaching them to kick is basically like having them sign their own death certificate in advance.

I am under the impression that many people, A) Never experience legitimate pressure in their training environments B) Will never have the ability to kick well, particularly under legitimate pressure

Amazing how a little thing like pressure can change the entire training landscape, isn't it? I'm going to speak in generalities now, so this doesn't apply to anyone specifically --

IMO, If you're constantly running because you can't deal with a guy up close in your "grill" (because you don't have a "legitimate" boxing game to speak of), you'll either be unable to kick or, your kicks won't have any authority on them.

Thus in my opinion, the boxing and clinch games are much more important. Otherwise, the only way to deal with forward pressure IS by running. That just doesn't lend itself very well to kicking -- unless you are "world class". And to be honest, how many of us are world class at kicking, or even can be?

Don't get me wrong, if you're a great kicker, that's awesome for you. You're in the minority from what I've seen.

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