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#411905 - 11/17/08 05:01 PM Resistence/Randori in Aikido
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Let's try again.

This is a question I've been thinking of for awhile, especially in light of recent threads in this forum:

Aikido (aside from the Tomiki style) doesn't really have any resistent sparring/ randori. Do you think Aikido would benifit from the introduction of this facet of training, or would it suffer? If you think it would suffer, what in particular do you think would be affected?

How many think Aikido might benifit from the introduction of this kind of training?


Interested to hear responses, both from Aikidoka, and those outside the art.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411906 - 11/19/08 04:21 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
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Loc: Chicago, IL
That anyone can ask such a question is mind boggling. It is like asking, "if I want to learn to play the piano, will it help to practice playing the piano?" If you want to learn to fight, whatever style you learn, practicing fighting is pretty helpful.

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#411907 - 11/23/08 04:49 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
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Mind boggling? Perhaps. But the fact is that the majority of Aikidoka spend their entire martial lives never trying their techniques against resistence.

I guess I'm just interested in why that is? What is the perceived fault of such practice? What effect would it have on what we know as Aikido? Why has such practice not been instituted, except for Tomiki style.

I'd also like to hear from any Tomiki stylists, who might be able to tell us how their randori fits into the overall practice of Aikido.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411908 - 11/23/08 05:14 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
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Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Ames, et al,

This is an age-old question that is brought up time and time again.

Coming from a Hakko-ryu perspective (Dentokan) and having the opportunity to be teaching my share of students lately who regularly ‘test’ me, I would say any form of resistance training/randori with inexperienced participants will quickly lead to crippling injuries without significantly watering down the techniques. The techniques were meant to cause such injuries by tearing up/dislocating joints, breaking bones, or smashing an attacker’s body to the ground in awkward positions to maim or kill them.

Aikido has a large number of kokyu-nage waza that are used in randori/jiyugeiko. These limit the injuries and still give students a sense of free practice in a controlled environment. Judo on the other hand has eliminated most of the dangerous waza for randori. I believe Tomiki or Shodokan Aikido has also eliminated many of the most dangerous waza for similar reasons.

An interesting question might be to ask why Daito-ryu has no formal randori in its curriculum?
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411909 - 11/24/08 12:52 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Posts: 999
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The "perceived fault" is that without practicing fighting, you will never, ever learn to fight. On the other hand, if you convince yourself somehow that that not practicing fighting is not a problem, and if you are lucky enough never to have to test this idea the hard way, you can be go through your whole aikido career clueless and happy.

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#411910 - 11/24/08 02:11 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Fileboy2002,

Fighting who? A mixed martial artist, Judoka, boxer, etc, or the average person on the street? Who are you refering to?
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411911 - 11/25/08 07:34 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
NewJitsu Offline
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Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
An interesting thread as before but one I fear will soon / already has slipped into an MMA vs TMA argument. The bitterest pill I had to swallow was when I took my JJJ training into a resistant, skilled arena and realised that only some of my techniques would work. Against an unskilled drunk was one thing, against a knowledgeable adrenaline fulled fighter on the mat was another.

My idea of resistance would be to put on some grappling gloves, a groin guard and gumshield and go 'duke it out'. See what works. I do not even attempt standing locks, 'block and throw' etc. I just couldn;t get a lot of my traditional training to work. I have to go for a takedown or clinch, then I'm OK. An experienced aikido guy might do otherwise but I really would like to see him try.

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#411912 - 11/25/08 12:14 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I am referring to a practioner of any art who has actually practiced fighting. That could be a boxer, wrestler, judoka, Muay Thai fighter, etc, etc. It could even be--in theory--an aikido practioner who has actually practiced fighting. I've never met one, but I am sure they exist. Somewhere. Maybe.

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#411913 - 11/25/08 03:15 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
A.J. Bryant Offline
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Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
First let me say that we all know MMA is the latest and greatest. All one has to do to browse the various forums here and elsewhere to see that. IMHO, practice what interests you and train in as much as you can--it’s all good.

Now, this thread is specifically about Aikido randori and resistance training, and several points were raised about real “fighting”. I asked who was “fighting” who. An Aikidoka against a BJJ exponent? Or MMA competitor, Judoka, average Joe, etc?

In reality, it doesn’t particularly matter. Aikido and related arts (i.e. traditional Japanese jujutsu) were simply not created to defend against modern MMA, grappling, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc., etc. It developed in a vacuum in feudal Japan to defend against common attacks of the day--mainly weapons based attacks and combat in armor. It’s a bit naive to compare arts such as these, especially while instituting MMA type rules and training techniques.

Secondly, how do you define “fighting”? What I read over and over again in these forums lately is MMA based “fighting”. I here things such as “I couldn’t get my Aikido/Jujutsu techniques to work in the clinch”, etc. MMA based competition is not combat reality. You enter the ring with an opponent who expects everything you might do, has trained for it, and “fights” with a set of rules in mind to win a refereed competition. Real fighting is also not throwing on gloves with your buddy and “trying things out” in your backyard.

Real fights have no rules. In real fights, people utilize concealed or improvised weapons, bite, poke out eyes, break noses, crush larynxes, kick groins, etc. These things are not allowed in MMA competitions or while you “fight” with your buddies. Next time you’re sparing with your buddies, try common Aikido kansetsu waza on them after breaking their nose first or kicking them in the groin as hard as you can. I guarantee that nikyo or kotegaeshi will work better for you...

Further, it’s also naive to believe the techniques you learn in traditional Japanese martial arts are designed to be the “actual” techniques you would use in combat. Traditional Japanese martial arts--by and large--are principle based. That means the techniques you learn teach principles to be used in numerous ways. Most of the time, the techniques utilized to transmit these principles are not necessarily the most realistic techniques; they’re simply the best waza to transmit the specific principle(s)... So, no wonder someone with only a few years under their belt can’t make their “techniques” work.

Another concept common in traditional Japanese martial arts, especially koryu arts such as Daito-ryu or other jujutsu ryuha (weapon schools as well) is not to teach the “real” techniques until after many years. One may ask why this is, because it sounds selfish or silly in this modern age. The truth is, when these arts were founded, teachers did not want the real techniques--the essence of their school--to leak out or be stolen by unscrupulous individuals. Why would you teach the most efficient or effective techniques to someone who might leave your school in a few years and face the potential of having to square off with them someday? This is precisely the reason special operation units won’t allow much of their tactical training to be filmed. Surprise is a good thing...

More important, Aikido, aikijujutsu, jujutsu, and other traditional Japanese martial arts are about a heck of a lot more than just learning how to “fight”. For a similar perspective, here is an excellent essay by Toby Threadgill:

http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_Assumptions.htm

Finally, let me reiterate that “it’s all good”. I’m not saying Aikido or any other art is “better” than another. I say do it all and train hard; just keep things in perspective and don’t be so close-minded. Spend a few decades on the mat actually listening to your teacher and when you’ve been around for a while, ask them some questions. You might be surprised what they show you or tell you. To simply assume things based on a shallow understanding of an art is a big mistake (again, see the article above).
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411914 - 11/25/08 03:49 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Every time I hear questions like, "well, what do you mean by 'fighting?'", I feel blood vessels in my brain about to burst. Are people serious? I think not! This sematic gymnasticas is just a way of avoiding an unpleasant truth: many martial arts styles are just plain useless when it comes to self defense.

No, MMA fights are not street fights. But let's get real here: they are as close to "real" as safety and sanity permit. What works in an MMA match will almost certainly work in a life-or-death fight.

MMA, UFC, etc have done to traditional martial arts what Copernicus, Kepkler, and Gallileo did to the bogus, dogmatic cosmology of the Catholic Church--i.e. blown them out of the water. Reactions to this have been mixed. Some martial artists--I hope most--have decided to revamp old ideas and traning methods in light of this reality check. Others have turned inward, like monks in a monestary, clinging ever more tighly to their sacred texts.

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#411915 - 11/25/08 05:08 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Quote:

Every time I hear questions like, "well, what do you mean by 'fighting?'", I feel blood vessels in my brain about to burst.




Well, see you should have explained yourself a bit better because evidently you didn’t mean MMA having anything to do with “real” fighting either…

Quote:

No, MMA fights are not street fights.




I couldn’t have said it better myself. We agree then: MMA, UFC, etc. isn’t “real” fighting. Glad we didn’t waste three or four pages here.

Hey, if you like it and it suits your tastes to practice MMA or the like because it’s more “real” to you, then good on ya! Everything has merit, but nothing is without its inherent weaknesses and drawbacks.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411916 - 11/25/08 08:02 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
A.J. Bryant,

Kindly don't quote me out of context in order to twist my meaning. I said while MMA fights were not street fights, they were the closest thing to it, at least within the bounds of saftey and sanity.

MMA is not just "more real" to me than traditional martial arts, it is "more real," period. And I disagree with you: not everything has merit. We sometimes pretend everything does to avoid conflict; however, we know it just ain't so.

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#411917 - 11/26/08 01:16 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Before this turns into another flame war, this is a thread about resistence in Aikido. Although MMA might be an example of resistent training, I really don't want this to turn into an 'MMA vs. TMA' debate. Using MMA as example or an analogy is fine, but try to stay on the subject of Aikido, please.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411918 - 11/26/08 07:40 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
"fileboy2002"

Sigh... You have come on this thread and made rather bold and arrogant statements about "fighting" and then condemn Aikido for lacking in this regard. I asked you to clarify what you meant by “fighting” and get you to admit that you’re evidently not referring to “real” fighting at all, but competitive “fighting” with rules like any other sport. Sports are not fighting, period. Therefore, please refrain from talking about what works and what doesn’t in actual violent, real-life empty-hand conflict if that’s not what you’re talking about.

Now, do you have anything valuable to contribute that’s actually on topic?
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411919 - 11/26/08 08:05 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
Trying to get this thread back on topic then... From what (little) I understand about Aikido, the art is founded in compliant learning. I can understand the importance of that, sure; you don't just leap in and start thrashing each other. Being an uke is the best way to learn, certainly for breakfalling.

But the important element that randori introduces is how your body reacts under stress. Adrenaline has a huge impact in fighting and randori helps address anticipation, nerves and of course honing your technique under less dojo based circumstances.

So whilst not knocking any art / style that has no randori, I have learnt that alive training (be that MMA, boxing, non sports such as door work etc) can only help to improve any MA skills, IMHO.

(But I do have to add I struggle with the 'oh, in real life I'd be able to do my move because I'd eye gouge him first etc etc'. I recently asked Royce Gracie about training under rules vs street fighting and he said,'You think I don't know how to eye gouge or kick someone in the groin?' And I'm not going to argue with him.

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#411920 - 11/26/08 12:30 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

I asked you to clarify what you meant by “fighting” and get you to admit that you’re evidently not referring to “real” fighting at all, but competitive “fighting” with rules like any other sport.




Actually, I think you would be hard pressed to find a better way to simulate actual combat. It might not be 'real' but it mimics reality better than most. All arts are also engaged in a simulation of reality. One difference that I see it that Aikido, and arts like it, were

Quote:

developed in a vacuum in feudal Japan to defend against common attacks of the day--mainly weapons based attacks and combat in armor.




so the simulated reality is, seemingly, an obsolete one.

Certainly there is a spectrum between 'more' like reality and 'less'. Aikido seems to lean towards the 'less' side of the spectrum, according to your own observation.

Quote:

Real fights have no rules.




This is true. But Aikido practice has far more 'rules', both explicit and implicit, than MMA.

Quote:

Further, it’s also naive to believe the techniques you learn in traditional Japanese martial arts are designed to be the “actual” techniques you would use in combat. Traditional Japanese martial arts--by and large--are principle based.




This is interesting and something I have heard often. The problem with this is you are saying that TJMA arts are 'priciple based' systems, yet, as quoted above, you are also suggesting that at one time these techniques were indeed meant to approximate reality.

Quote:

they’re simply the best waza to transmit the specific principle(s)...




Are they? That's a good question, and I think the jury is still out on that. Does TJMA do anything, specifically. that other arts with a differing training methodology don't do?

Quote:

Another concept common in traditional Japanese martial arts, especially koryu arts such as Daito-ryu or other jujutsu ryuha (weapon schools as well) is not to teach the “real” techniques until after many years. One may ask why this is, because it sounds selfish or silly in this modern age. The truth is, when these arts were founded, teachers did not want the real techniques--the essence of their school--to leak out or be stolen by unscrupulous individuals.




So the early techniques contain the principles of the system, but you can only unlock those principles after decades in the art? As this is a thread regarding Aikido, at what point in training are these 'real' techniques seen? I see no evidence that such a stage was ever built into the system.

Further, we only encounter this kind of methodology in the more 'modern' Koryu. Certainly a lord wouldn't want to spend 20 years training a samural to do his job.

I actually don't really think this (a long time before making the art functional) is a 'tradional' training method at all. I think it is, at best, a couple of hundred years old.

Quote:

More important, Aikido, aikijujutsu, jujutsu, and other traditional Japanese martial arts are about a heck of a lot more than just learning how to “fight”




I agree with you here. But so are non-traditional arts.

Quote:

Spend a few decades on the mat actually listening to your teacher and when you’ve been around for a while, ask them some questions.




In all due respect, I can't understand this. Go back to my point on the training time for a samurai during actual times of war in Japan.

Futher, the Shindo Yoshin Ryu (the site you have linked to) teach their 'self defence' waza first (for the first four years) before the more esoteric stuff is taught.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411921 - 11/26/08 12:58 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
AJ -

Quote:

I asked you to clarify what you meant by “fighting” and get you to admit that you’re evidently not referring to “real” fighting at all, but competitive “fighting” with rules like any other sport.




As Ames noted, non-sport practice has as many or more rules than some 'sport' practices do, making that argument tenuous at best.

Quote:

Sports are not fighting, period. Therefore, please refrain from talking about what works and what doesn’t in actual violent, real-life empty-hand conflict if that’s not what you’re talking about.




True that sports are not fighting - but neither is any other practice. The question is, "how close do the respective practices get?"

A case can be made for 'sport' practice on the resistance element alone.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#411922 - 11/26/08 04:12 PM general reply - relating a story from class [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
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I saw this thread a while ago and resisted the urge to reply for a long time. I didn't want to get into it because it's just a never-ending go-around with people who not only do not understand Aikido, but who just simply do not want to understand and knock it any way.

My Aikido (Yoshinkan) students learn to not resist in class because they do not want thier joints and limbs broken. They learn pretty quickly that resistance will not necessarily counter a technique but rather lead to something more painful or injurious than the technique that they resisted. They learn to take ukemi, release the pressure on the joint and roll out of it. We also work on counters. They also learn that by properly locking the skeleton, uke can not resist even when he wants to.
Simply put, there is no resistance in Aikido.

Now the story from class, which is not the first time this happened and will not be the last.

A friend of a student came to take a class with us as he was thinking of joining. We were doing nikajo. He told me that because of his BJJ/MM training that would never work because all he had to do was punch me in the face with his other hand. So I told him to attack and then punch me in the face with the other hand.
As he went crashing to his knees, screaming like a baby, his 2nd punch that was supposed to hit me in the face stopped quite short. All he had for me afterward was a bunch of filthy words and called me a f***ng maniac and left.
What changed my mind about posting in this thread was running into the "Aikido will never work on me" master of MMA, was that I ran into him again, nearly 2 years later.

He's still a friend of my now former student and I saw this MMA guy at my former students garage. When I got there I thought he looked familiar but I couldn't place who he was. He was all loud and chatty just as he usually is. Then my ex-student points to me and says "Do you remember this guy?". His demeanor totally changed. He started stutetring and yammering. He would not look at me, he just mumbled something as he hung his head down. Then he suddenly remembered something he had to do and said he had to go. 2 years later and this MMA master, who Aikido will NEVER work on is still ready to wet his pants over a most basic technique.

I can also relate stories about Gracie Jujutsu experts whining about Aikido techniques being against the rules, AFTER they tapped out.

There's also the MMA wannabe that was manhandled by a 65 year old female Aikido teacher and left because he didn't want to learn that "crap" he wanted to "fight".

The stories are endless.

If someone is just not interested in Aikido then that is fine. It's not for everyone. It's hard, it hurts at times and you get tired. But people who have no knowlegde or understanding of Aikido, that is people who have never truly experienced it, should not be commenting on it's training methods or "lack of effectiveness".

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#411923 - 11/26/08 04:16 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
A.J. Bryant,

What I said was very much on topic. This thread posed an important question: is resistance an essential component of randori? That anyone would doubt it was surprised me. Sorry if that upsets you.

And again, please stop twisting my words! The fact that resistance training in MMA, judo, boxing, or other arts is not "real" fighting does not make it irrelevant to "real" fighting. On the contrary: you are unlikely to prevail in a "real" fight without such training!

In short, my answer to your question is yes, aikiod randori would benefit from resistence.

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#411924 - 11/26/08 04:48 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Quote:

In short, my answer to your question is yes, aikiod randori would benefit from resistence.




Some may realize a benefit in changing the training method. But my experience has been that training this way sends too many uke to the emergency room and the dropout rate gets too high.

It's better to strike a balance amd err a little on the side of safety than it is to break all of your students bones just to prove a point. I do know a teacher that used to do just that. All of his uchi deshi got thier arm broken, except 1 - he broke his nose and sternum instead.
I was going to go and visit that teacher after I moved since he's only a few hours away. I was advised by teacher to not go there because he's crazy and would hurt me.

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#411925 - 11/26/08 06:32 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
JAMJTX,

My question would be why would randori be "too dangerous" in aikido and not in other martial arts? Is aikido uniquely deadly? Are aikido students and teachers uniquely inept? I doubt it.

Most likely, the high injury rate refelcts a lack of experience in participating and/or monitoring proper randori training. I expect if more aikido schools used resistence in trainging they would quickly learn to do it well and the injury rate would drop.

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#411926 - 11/26/08 07:11 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
FILEBOY

I doubt you will ever really grasp this idea, whether it be your own unique ineptitude or just resistance to trying to understand things. But I will try to explain some things to you.

Joints are incredibly weak and become injured very easily. In most cases people can not take ukemi fast enough to avoid the injury. It just happens too fast and most Aikidoka will not develop that level of reflex.

Generally, Aikido does not just seek to apply a basic joint lock. There are other things going on, especially breaking the balance. So uke is falling as well as having a lock placed on a week/tender joint. It makes it much more difficult to resist a technique when you are falling down and your subconcious mind would rather see your wrist get broken than your neck. In Aikido, we are not just attacking a persons mind, it is a 3 prong attack on his mind, body and spirit. It is very difficult to defend against this.
Again, I ask: If Aikido techniques are so ineffctive, why then are they illegal in all these MMA tournaments being promoted by people who think like you do?

I will also tell you that several of my students are prison guards. They deal with the lowest, nastiest people on the planet. People who fight every day and kill people. These guards fight every day. One student was told by a prisoner: "It's not personal. But I just want you to know I'm going to kill you someday". These are not people who take thier training lightly. And they train with me, not the sport/BJJ/MMA schools. These are people who know much more about REAL fighting and staying alive than you ever will.
I suspect that if you ever did show up at a Yoshinkan school and challenged the teacher, and he took you up on it, you would start crying just like the guy who fled my class and 2 years later starts stuttering when he sees me.

Our Aikido has been around a long time and has been proven in police departments around the world. And don't try to tell me that criminals don't offer resistance.

I wish I could teacj you all that you need to know about Aikido so you can understand it. But it mut be felt to be understood. I suggest that, if you are serious about wanting to understand Aikido, you find a good teacher and tick with him long enough to learn some basics so that you can safely practice.

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#411927 - 11/26/08 10:33 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Aronious Offline
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Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 4
In my dojo we do practice randori as if it were a real fight. However, the idea is that one should be able to feel when they may hurt uke, and uke should be able to tapout.

Quote:

What works in an MMA match will almost certainly work in a life-or-death fight.




Except that in a real fight, somebody's going to punch you in the back of the head, poke you in the eyes, and kick you in the groin. You can't really expect to defend yourself in a literal life-or-death situation if you're dancing around rules to keep things safe, because in a real fight, things aren't safe and there are no rules.

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#411928 - 11/26/08 11:04 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Aronious]
MattJ Offline
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Jim -

Quote:

These are not people who take thier training lightly. And they train with me, not the sport/BJJ/MMA schools. These are people who know much more about REAL fighting and staying alive than you ever will.




*sound of buzzer*

I bet I know more prison guards training at my BJJ school than you do at your Aikido school. One of them is even a member here. The rules thing is not a valid argument, since YOUR training is occuring under just as many rules - unless you ARE breaking your student' bones or killing them. If you guys think we don't get poked in the eye or hit in the groin in BJJ, you really ought to try a few classes for yourself.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#411929 - 11/27/08 08:48 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
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Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Happy Thanksgiving everyone,

I started out writing a detailed post that addressed several issues brought up by Ames and others, but you know what, it just isn’t necessary.

If your training desires involve testing your skills against other trained martial artists in a competitive environment with rules that govern the competition, do arts like MMA that have either been born from such venues or evolved to compete in them. Aikido or traditional Japanese Jujutsu will not help you much.

For 99% of everyone else out there (excluding military and LEO), when was the last time you were actually in a violent encounter? Who was it with? For most, it was likely long ago and probably with a friend, acquaintance or family member. If not, and you’re getting into fights regularly, you need much more help than any martial art will ever offer you. Just like the 50 year old man I turned away from my dojo recently who wanted help winning his frequent bar fights... Ummm, OK.

In the vast majority of self-defense situations the average person is going to face, skills such as awareness of your environment, avoidance, safety in numbers, etc, will serve you far better than any waza--really; back down some of those testosterone levels folks--For those rare encounters mentioned above, although you might feel like doing it at the time, they do not require devastating techniques. Do you really want to snap your friend’s neck, or break their arm in a manner that will cripple them for life? Do you like going to prison? Even LEO have to justify their actions and cannot cripple or main every suspect. When these actions are within the law, during a life threatening encounter, the suspect will most likely be shot. Simple as that. However, I digress...

For 99% of the visitors to this forum, arts such as Aikido were founded or have evolved to suit their needs in modern society and they work quite well. They offer a range of responses from simple escape and evasion to life taking techniques. However, like anything else in life, skill and the ability to execute techniques effectively takes dedicated training in terms of years, even decades.

MMA, BJJ, etc are great arts in their own right, but let's not compare apples to oranges here. Don't value the worth of one based upon the narrow parameters of another. Every art has its strengths and weaknesses. Let's just keep everything in perspective.

Cheers!
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411930 - 11/27/08 09:40 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Aronious Offline
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Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 4
Quote:

If you guys think we don't get poked in the eye or hit in the groin in BJJ, you really ought to try a few classes for yourself.




You're misunderstanding me. I'm not referring to BJJ specifically, I'm referring to the MMA ring.

Quote:

The rules thing is not a valid argument, since YOUR training is occuring under just as many rules - unless you ARE breaking your student' bones or killing them.




Safety isn't a rule, it's a demonstration of experience. An inexperienced student will not be able to control a situation effectively enough so as to not injure anyone. You should be aware of what can injure or mortally wound an opponent, but you should also aspire to be skilled enough that you don't have to.

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#411931 - 11/27/08 10:47 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

MMA, BJJ, etc are great arts in their own right, but let's not compare apples to oranges here. Don't value the worth of one based upon the narrow parameters of another. Every art has its strengths and weaknesses. Let's just keep everything in perspective.




AJ, although I apprieciate this well thought out post, and agree with the need to keep everything in perspective, with all due respect, the purpose of this thread is to discuss resistence in Aikido, and why it is not present, and from that what is gained and what is lost by its absence.

Although your point about it being unlikely that the average person will ever be in a violent encounter is valid, it seems obvious that the majority of Aikidoka out there believe that what they are doing is combatively sound (evidenced by Jim's post); hence the need to discuss this topic.

Jim : Please don't call other members "inept", it constitutes a personal attack and is against forum rules. Fileboy has not said anything which warrants such rancour.

Interesting thread, but let's keep in civil.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/27/08 10:48 AM)

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#411932 - 11/27/08 10:55 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Aronious]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Matt
BJJ is foolish for prison guards. Rolling around on the floor in a crowded jail cell s a pretty bad idea. The other 5 guys in there will just stomp on you.

I'm not talking about merely getting poked in the eye or hit in the groin b accident. I'm talking about things like kubi nage where your neck will accidentally get broken. I think there's a big difference there. The way we do irimi nage a neck can also get broken even by accident. I'm talking about doing nikajo by not just merely twisting the hand until he says ouch and taps, our nikajo is done like sword cut swift and sharp, cutting until his face hits the ground. There's no time to tap out at the speed. The wrist will be destroyed before he hits the ground. So it must be done slower and controlled. This is what happened to the idiot that came and challenged me on it. In that case, I wanted to hurt that jacka** just to teach him a lesson. I didn't want him as a student anyway.

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#411933 - 11/27/08 03:03 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
JAMJTX,

Lots of dangerous techniques are not allowed in MMA, from certain types of joint locks to rabbit punches. It is not the case that aikido techniques are uniquely singled out for exclusion. What would impress me is if an aikiod practioner would enter an MMA competition and do well. But I won't hold my breath.

As for aikido techniques being used by prison guards: I am sure some are. I am equally sure they use techniques from other arts as well. However, I'd bet dollars to donuts they practice them under more realistic conditions than those that prevail in most aikido dojos.

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#411934 - 11/27/08 05:21 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

They also learn that by properly locking the skeleton, uke can not resist even when he wants to.
Simply put, there is no resistance in Aikido




I think you might be misunderstanding what is meant by 'resistence'. It doesn't just mean standing there and locking down the muscles. It means that uke actively seeks to escape the technique.

Quote:

I can also relate stories about Gracie Jujutsu experts whining about Aikido techniques being against the rules, AFTER they tapped out.




I'd like to hear them, because the majority of Aikido techniques, especially those practiced with the most frequency are allowed in most BJJ competitions.

Quote:

There's also the MMA wannabe that was manhandled by a 65 year old female Aikido teacher and left because he didn't want to learn that "crap" he wanted to "fight".




There are many 'wannabe's'. This person does not, and should not stand for MMA practioners as a whole.

Quote:

It's hard, it hurts at times and you get tired. But people who have no knowlegde or understanding of Aikido, that is people who have never truly experienced it, should not be commenting on it's training methods or "lack of effectiveness".





You say this, but you are willing to comment on BJJ, having never trained it for any apprciable amount of time. I asked the question, and I specifically asked non-Aikidoka to also comment, because I think the more voices from more martial backgrounds, the better. One can indeed comment on an art without having trained it for years.

I would also like to know if you are including me in this?

Quote:

Joints are incredibly weak and become injured very easily. In most cases people can not take ukemi fast enough to avoid the injury. It just happens too fast and most Aikidoka will not develop that level of reflex.





I have been told this myself, but I have to question whether or not it is valid. Certainly the Tomiki guys seem to be able to "take ukemi fast enough".

Quote:

Again, I ask: If Aikido techniques are so ineffctive, why then are they illegal in all these MMA tournaments being promoted by people who think like you do?





The vast majority of Aikido techniques are allowed in MMA comp.

Quote:

Our Aikido has been around a long time and has been proven in police departments around the world. And don't try to tell me that criminals don't offer resistance.





An LEO has recourse to numerous weapons, and generally backup, and therefore has a very different basis from which to use his training than the average person.

Quote:

BJJ is foolish for prison guards. Rolling around on the floor in a crowded jail cell s a pretty bad idea. The other 5 guys in there will just stomp on you




I want to give Matt a chance to respond, as this was directed at him. But I would like to say that often you don't choose the ground, the ground chooses you.

Also, the average BJJer, despite what many seem to think, is capable of using his brain. Why would he choose to go the ground in this scenerio anyway?

Quote:

The way we do irimi nage a neck can also get broken even by accident. I'm talking about doing nikajo by not just merely twisting the hand until he says ouch and taps, our nikajo is done like sword cut swift and sharp, cutting until his face hits the ground. There's no time to tap out at the speed. The wrist will be destroyed before he hits the ground. So it must be done slower and controlled.




But the thing is, when you perform nikajo in the dojo, you aren't breaking anyone's wrist (for obvious reasons). The technique has already been altered in order to make its practice safer. The very fact that the student isn't having their wrist broken and then face planting shows this. You say, "there is no time to tap out," yet during practice the student will tap many times.

In other words, the techniques have already been altered to make their practice safer. Thus there is a large amount of both implicit and explicit rules in Aikido practice.

Further, having had Nikajo applied to me many times during grappling, and having applied it myself, I can attest to the fact that it can be done controlled enough during a 'live' exchange so that the liklehood of injury is decreased.

Also, take the Americana of BJJ. This is a lock that could easily rip apart the shoulder if it was applied with that intent. Instead, it is applied only to that point (at least in training) so that the reciever knows they are locked and should tap. The Americana is a 'break', but is only practiced as a lock. Much like the way you practice nikajo.

Quote:

This is what happened to the idiot that came and challenged me on it. In that case, I wanted to hurt that jacka** just to teach him a lesson. I didn't want him as a student anyway.





I don't know the whole story of this incident, but I do hope this was (at least) done during a free exchange and this wasn't a 'grab my wrist and I'll show you real Aikido' type of thing. I've seen this a lot in Aikido, and I have to say I think it is really a major breach of trust. No matter how badly behaved, rude, arrogant, a student is, if they are compliantly taking your wrist, then you owe it to them, and should have enough skill, not to injure them.

I've had things like this done to me several times because I was 'asking too many questions' or 'wasn't going with the technique'. This is one of the reasons I find it very funny when BJJ guys are referred to as jacked up, testorone filled, egotisical idiots. I've yet to experiance anyone 'proving' anything to me in BJJ, and if someone did at least you would have the chance in BJJ to defend yourself freely.

Once at a seminar, a highish dan didn't like the way I moved, so he switched mid-technique, and violently twisted my neck so that it made a loud pop. I was told that 'he had to do it because I wasn't going with the technique, and know I would.' This wasn't the first time he had tried to hurt me during the ten minutes we were together. I got up and instead of throwing a slow punch, I punched like a boxer and hit him in the nose, maybe breaking it (I never found out). I wanted to show him what it felt like to violate the implicit trust, as he had. I sure did wipe that grin off his face. Suffice it say, I was asked to leave the seminar. Which was fine by me. To this day, I still have problems with my neck because of this. I wish I could say this was an isolated incident, but it was not. To be honest, it was incidents like this that have made me turn away from co-operative practive altogether. They make the ego grow too big as it is never checked by someone younger, with less time in the art, tapping you out.

So Jim, if you did this to a student, I truly hope you let him know beforehand that you were amping up the practice, and that you gave him every oppurtunity to defend himself.


Edited by Ames (11/27/08 05:49 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411935 - 11/28/08 10:25 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jim -

Quote:

BJJ is foolish for prison guards. Rolling around on the floor in a crowded jail cell s a pretty bad idea. The other 5 guys in there will just stomp on you.




You want it to be foolish, I'm sure. But if the guards are training it of their own accord, what does that say?

And what do you propose when (not if) someone gets one of the guards down? Give up? Maybe they learn BJJ because they aren't arrogant/foolish enough to assume that they CAN'T be taken down. I have been told that the BJJ training they get at my school has come in handy more than once.

You are simply wrong.

Quote:

I'm not talking about merely getting poked in the eye or hit in the groin b accident.




What's the difference? There have been a few hard hits. Doesn't matter if they were intentional or not. Those strikes are not always the fight enders you wish they were.

Quote:

I'm talking about things like kubi nage where your neck will accidentally get broken. I think there's a big difference there. The way we do irimi nage a neck can also get broken even by accident. I'm talking about doing nikajo by not just merely twisting the hand until he says ouch and taps, our nikajo is done like sword cut swift and sharp, cutting until his face hits the ground. There's no time to tap out at the speed. The wrist will be destroyed before he hits the ground. So it must be done slower and controlled. This is what happened to the idiot that came and challenged me on it. In that case, I wanted to hurt that jacka** just to teach him a lesson. I didn't want him as a student anyway.




Funny that you assume that YOU can do these techniques with no time for the other gut to tap, but apparently assume that BJJ/MMA people couldn't do theirs the same way.

This is the type of thinking that occurs when people don't spar.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#411936 - 11/28/08 05:18 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Matt,

Once again you ignorantly state that your MMA is virtually only art that can deal with a situtation on the ground. Again, I have to go back to my experience with whiny BJJ who, after being submitted by an Aikido brown belt who was on the ground with themm. complained about Aikiod technqiues being against the rules. It alwasy seems to come down to there needing to be rules to make your stuff effective. We teach that there are no rules to a fight.

You also very arrogantly, yet stupidly, claim that I have never sparred. I don't know how you would even think that you would no such a thing. But you are just as far off base here as you are in everything else you say. I have sparred quiet a bit. But again, sparring is a game, fighting is for real.

The problem here is not that BJJ/MMA people do not have the ability to perform techniques teh way we do. The problem is that they they keep claiming they will not work on them. Then, when they are proven to work they fall back on the old "that's an illegal technique" argument.

The bottom line is that BJJ/MMA is a sport designed to be played according to a specific set of rules, one-on-one, with a referee, time limits and all sorts of safety rules (which includes the banning of Aikido techniques). This is not rooted in reality and the thought that it translates to real world self defense is not rooted in inteligence.

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#411937 - 11/28/08 06:47 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Jim, this will be your last warning regarding personal attacks on forum members. You are free to voice what opinons you want, but do so civily. Calling another member 'stupid' will absolutely not be tolerated here.


--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/28/08 06:48 PM)
_________________________
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--Basho

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#411938 - 11/28/08 07:19 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Ames,

I’d be interested to hear your direct thoughts/opinions as to the effectiveness of Aikido and traditional Japanese Jujutsu under resistance and during randori. With 15 years experience in Aikido and 2 years of intense one-on-one instruction in Daito-ryu (Hakuho-kai/Hakuho-ryu), you likely have more experience than most people on this forum and surely outrank just about everyone.

Thanks.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411939 - 11/28/08 08:19 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jim -

Quote:

Once again you ignorantly state that your MMA is virtually only art that can deal with a situtation on the ground.




???????

Where have I ever stated that? Many other arts are good on the ground. Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc. BTW, I am not a MMAer. I am not even good at BJJ.

Quote:

Again, I have to go back to my experience with whiny BJJ who, after being submitted by an Aikido brown belt who was on the ground with themm. complained about Aikiod technqiues being against the rules. It alwasy seems to come down to there needing to be rules to make your stuff effective. We teach that there are no rules to a fight.




With all due repect, those kinds of stories are the exception, not the rule.

Quote:

You also very arrogantly, yet stupidly, claim that I have never sparred. I don't know how you would even think that you would no such a thing. But you are just as far off base here as you are in everything else you say. I have sparred quiet a bit. But again, sparring is a game, fighting is for real.




I actually did not say that *you* never sparred, only that your thoughts and reasoning were representative of those who don't. However, your whip-up-on-BJJ stories do not seem to have come about from sparring, but rather from demos. And it is unclear whether or not your opponents were allowed to resist or defend. If these were free-sparring situations, then I apologize.

Quote:

The problem here is not that BJJ/MMA people do not have the ability to perform techniques teh way we do. The problem is that they they keep claiming they will not work on them. Then, when they are proven to work they fall back on the old "that's an illegal technique" argument.




Again, that depends - did they think there were rules or not? And I don't know of any BJJ people that think that Aikido techniques will "not work on them". Only that some of them are low-percentage in comparison.

Quote:

The bottom line is that BJJ/MMA is a sport designed to be played according to a specific set of rules, one-on-one, with a referee, time limits and all sorts of safety rules (which includes the banning of Aikido techniques). This is not rooted in reality and the thought that it translates to real world self defense is not rooted in inteligence.




Jim, MMA is a sport AND a fighting system - please do not confuse the two. UFC is the sporting end. However, it is descended from Vale Tudo, which was a street-fighting style in Brazil. I suggest you read up about the History of BJJ a bit.

BTW - I have long been a fan of Aikido footwork/body movement for sparring. I use it myself all the time, and consider it just as good as boxing's. The standing joint locks, not so much. Those are much harder to do when someone does not let you. That has been my basic point re: randori in Aikido.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#411940 - 11/28/08 08:50 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
AJ, I'll start with the end of your post first:

Quote:

you likely have more experience than most people on this forum and surely outrank just about everyone.





I doubt that very, very much. As I clearly stated in the post you asked this question in, my time studying Aikido was broken up and spent at various dojo, so no, my rank isn't very high. On the one hand, you could say that this is proof that I never experianced any 'real depth' in the art. And that is possible. On the other hand, if the old line about basics being the true heart of any art (which many seem to repeat again and again, and which I agree with 100%)is true, then I certainly know those quite well. But no, my rank isn't very high. Which is fine by me. I never much cared for rank, and perhaps thats mainly why I never persued it.

As for my Hakuho Ryu training, most of my study concerned the Ikkajo waza, although my Sensei and I did go over a number of higher waza many times. My sensei had, and has, a somewhat innovative way of teaching, and some of our classes were just henka. I feel I learned much with him. The only reason I'm not studying with him now is that we live in diffirent cities and my back is such that it needs some time before I can breakfall again. But no, no great rank there either.

All that being said, precisely what my personal background has to do with this thread in particular, is beyond me. I haven't used my experiance as evidence that my claims are beyond reproach, or anything of the like.

Quote:

I’d be interested to hear your direct thoughts/opinions as to the effectiveness of Aikido and traditional Japanese Jujutsu under resistance and during randori.




That's a tough question, and if I was able to easily answer it, I probably wouldn't have made this thread in the first place.

I will give you some of my thoughts, but they are provisional, and subject to change.

These are some things I have personally come to through sparring with fairly skilled practioners of other styles. I'm going to keep this on the topic of Aikido, because Aikido and DR, despite what many seem to think, are two distinct arts. Anyway:

1. Aikido is an indirect martial art.
What I mean by this, is that a lot of what Aikido teaches you, is indirect knowledge. A 'technique' is just a principle and that principle can be applied in many diffirent ways. That being said, I think a weakness here is that these techniques, for cultural/historical reasons like you alluded to, are never really pragmatic.

2. To apply Aikido against a trained fighter, you have to go outside Aikido.
In other words, because Aikido doesn't contain many pragmatic techniques (for the reasons stated above), and because there is no way to test what would-be functional techniques there are, you have to look outside for a delivery system to apply what you have learned. Once you have a delivery system, certain basic henka of certain techniques become more possble.

3. The priciples of Aikido are found in every other grappling art I've experianced. Many of the principles are also found in non-grappling arts.
This is not to say that Aikido doesn't have it's own unique way of teaching these principles, just that the principles themselves are not unique.

4. There may be more effective ways to train those principles, such as by actually testing them in something which better simulates actual combat.

This is only my opinion, and I was asked for it. There's a good chance I'm leaving some stuff out, but I'm beat and I post some more later.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/29/08 12:20 AM)

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#411941 - 11/29/08 05:16 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
Quote:

I’d be interested to hear your direct thoughts/opinions as to the effectiveness of Aikido and traditional Japanese Jujutsu under resistance and during randori.




JJJ + randori = Judo

That's my experience anyway. It quickly turns into a grappling situation where even experienced jitsuka rely on just a few moves, always including o soto gari. I have found JJJ very useful in brawls as long as one knows how to employ the fence and understands the brain is the best weapon, but against a skilled (and sober) opponent not so effective. One of my friends has studied JJJ since he was a kid; he's turning pro MMA next year and says JJJ hardly registers in his repertoire. OK, so it's a sport but I'd still class this as as close to a live encounter as possible, especially from the body reaction / adrenaline POV that I mentioned earlier. For me, that is the determining factor - you can be the best fighter in the world, but if your nerves let you down you're stuffed. Which is why IMHO randori / sparring is a must.

I'd say the same of Aikido....

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#411942 - 11/30/08 01:20 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
This might be an interesting direction to take this thread...

A.J. (and anyone else)

What, if any, insights have you gained through randori that you did not through waza practice alone?

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/30/08 01:52 AM)

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#411943 - 12/03/08 12:27 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Sorry for the late reply,

I think we have two completely different mindsets here. I’m not interested in, or training for a competitive encounter. I’m interested in resolving (as quickly as possible) a spontaneous violent encounter in the real world where I have no choice but to fall back on my empty-hand skills as a last resort (i.e., I didn’t avoid the encounter, escape, bring a weapon, find one within reach, etc.).

Training for that context in the dojo setting, what have I learned from randori/freestyle practice?

1. Move! It’s hard to catch or strike a moving target.

2. Nothing works 100% of the time and you must be willing to flow from technique to technique. People don’t react the way you think they will in spontaneous situations, so you must be willing to go with the flow.

3. Who ever said there are no kicks, punches or blocks in Aikido/Aikijujutsu? This covers a lot of situations where joint locks/throws go wrong. The question is, how good is one at executing them and are your training partners giving you good attacks? One Aikido teacher (Mitsugi Saotome) used to bring a high ranked Shotokan teacher into his dojo to teach his Aikido students just these skills. Aikido/Aikijujutsu isn’t perfect. I’m now training in Goju-ryu myself, but I digress...

4. Someone wants to box with me, great, I adjust the maai/deflect accordingly until they decide to throw me a committed attack. Did I mention kicking already?

5. High kicks are relatively easy to deal with; it’s the low kicks that you have to worry about a little. Kick the kick...

6. If someone resists and tries to escape while I’m applying a joint lock or other technique, great, conflict resolved! Push or kick them away... That’s a great time for me to escape or find that improvised weapon, etc.

7. Never go to the ground unless you like getting kicked in the head or piled on by the opponent’s friends or other uke. If it goes to the ground, get up as quickly as possible.

8. If you find yourself facing three or more opponents, they’ll likely get you sooner or later. Your mistake was not avoiding that situation.

These are just some things off the top of my head. As I said, I really think we’re talking about two different mindsets here. That is, training for competition and training for reality based encounters. If everyone wants to go on talking about Aikido/Jujutsu compared to MMA or BJJ and/or a cage match between the two, I just don’t have anything else to say. I don’t train that way.

Cheers!
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411944 - 12/03/08 02:50 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

I think we have two completely different mindsets here. I’m not interested in, or training for a competitive encounter. I’m interested in resolving (as quickly as possible) a spontaneous violent encounter in the real world [...]




Not sure who you are speaking to here? I think most who have posted on this thread are interested in the same thing.

Quote:

. Move! It’s hard to catch or strike a moving target.

2. Nothing works 100% of the time and you must be willing to flow from technique to technique. People don’t react the way you think they will in spontaneous situations, so you must be willing to go with the flow.





Well said. I'm in complete agreement with both these points.

Quote:

3. Who ever said there are no kicks, punches or blocks in Aikido/Aikijujutsu? This covers a lot of situations where joint locks/throws go wrong. The question is, how good is one at executing them and are your training partners giving you good attacks? One Aikido teacher (Mitsugi Saotome) used to bring a high ranked Shotokan teacher into his dojo to teach his Aikido students just these skills. Aikido/Aikijujutsu isn’t perfect. I’m now training in Goju-ryu myself, but I digress...




This statment is a bit confusing, however. Although there is atemi in some Aikido (not all, though) I think it's interesting that so many, like Saotome and yourself, need to look outside Aikido to incorporate more striking. Not that that is bad thing, nor do I think it is in anyway a 'polution' of 'real' Aikido (whatever that means). Just that I see some contradiction here. Yes, some Aikidoka train at dojo that practice atemi, but even those who practice an Aikido where 'original' atemi is present (for example, Yoshinkan), usually folks have to look outside the art for more depth. So although some Aikido does have atemi, I think it is wanting in some way (based on what I said above).

You're and Saotome need to look to another system to increase your striking ablility (at least that's what I took from your point) mirrors my own experiance in randori.

Quote:

4. Someone wants to box with me, great, I adjust the maai/deflect accordingly until they decide to throw me a committed attack. Did I mention kicking already?




Fair enough. But, let's be honest here, again, the vast majority of Aikido dojo do not practice kicking.

Quote:

5. High kicks are relatively easy to deal with; it’s the low kicks that you have to worry about a little. Kick the kick...





For me, it depends on the kicker (I know you said 'relatively'). I used to think that highkicks weren't that dangerous, then I got kicked in the head by muay thai guy--thankfully I was wearing headgear.

Quote:

6. If someone resists and tries to escape while I’m applying a joint lock or other technique, great, conflict resolved! Push or kick them away... That’s a great time for me to escape or find that improvised weapon, etc.





It depends on how they 'resist' though, doesn't it? If they just 'seize' up, then yeah, I think those are good options. But if they on any level understand movement-as-resistence, then a counter technique from them will also be forthcoming. We practiced this in AJJ. Someone applies a lock, you move and counter, sometimes with atemi, sometimes with a reversal throw/lock.

The other potential problem I see with this strategy is the presupposition that 'getting away' will be an option. If you are alone, this is a good one. But what if your wife or kid or etc. is there? Kimeda Sensei, 8th dan Yoshinkan, put this nicely. "It's good to get away, but sometimes you can't. What if he grabs your girlfriend? Do you run then? This is Budo. Sometimes you must stay."

Quote:

7. Never go to the ground unless you like getting kicked in the head or piled on by the opponent’s friends or other uke. If it goes to the ground, get up as quickly as possible.





Agreed. In a civalian s.d. situation, usually you're going to want to stay on your feet. But the problem is, in order to get up, you need to learn a little bit about ground work, so that you know you can.

Quote:

8. If you find yourself facing three or more opponents, they’ll likely get you sooner or later. Your mistake was not avoiding that situation.





Very true.

Quote:

As I said, I really think we’re talking about two different mindsets here. That is, training for competition and training for reality based encounters. If everyone wants to go on talking about Aikido/Jujutsu compared to MMA or BJJ and/or a cage match between the two, I just don’t have anything else to say.




This throws me a bit, A.J., because I don't think anyone has suggested 'who would win a cage match between the two'.

You also seem to be making a flawed suppositions that MMA/BJJ guys are all training FOR competition. I'll let MattJ, or someone else who knows more about this than I chime in here, but suffice it say, BJJ was not only invented for competetion. It was tested in real fights on the street of Rio. Competition is a fun thing to do for some, but that doesn't mean that many BJJer's aren't training for 'reality' either.

MMA is a training methodolgy, not a system. That methodolgy, admitedly, is mostly used for sports, but there are some (Straght Blast Gym/ Crazy Monkey Boxing are two orgs. that come to mind) that use the MMA method for training people to deal with street/life and death situations.

Saotome seemed to think that there was something to be taken from a 'sport' martial art, he adapted his striking methods, as you say, from Shotokan.

The next thing, and most importantly (because I've never heard a good answer yet): what in particular is it in Aikido that makes it more geared toward 'reality' than BJJ or MMA? This is esseintial, because you, and others, are polarising the two, but not really defining what the actual difference is.

I have no interest in turning this into an MMA/BJJ vs. Aikido thread either. But the thing is, that when the topic of resistence is brought up, many folks say "We don't do that, because this isn't sport." They say this without actually defining what it is that makes a 'sporting' m.a. weak in self defence. Usually these arguments hang around

1. Techniques are too deadly
2. Sports have rules

I think both of these arguments are intrinsically flawed. And I'm personally interested (really, not rhetorically) to know why Aikidoka (outside of Tomiki) think something like sparring violates some rule or principle of Aikido, or how it would translate into lesser s.d. skill?

--Chris



Edited by Ames (12/03/08 02:58 PM)

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#411945 - 12/03/08 05:50 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Ames,

Here’s your stance on Aikido, and correct me if I’m wrong here. Aikido has no unique principles and there are much better ways to learn the principles it does contain. Further, Aikido techniques themselves do not work against a “trained fighter”. Because they do not work, one has to go outside the art to bring back techniques or training methodologies that do.

I attempted to explain in my previous post (perhaps not well enough) that I do not train to face off against a “trained fighter”. To me, this seems to be where you’re coming from. That is, Aikido working in a “sparring” match in the dojo against another “trained fighter”. Aikido, Aikijujutsu or most traditional Japanese jujutsu systems in general do not focus on teaching their students to win in such situations. Training in kaeshiwaza is different.

Of course Judo has “sparring”, but all the best techniques are against the “rules” of these matches. Tomiki Aikido has “sparring” competitions as well, but again, most of the dangerous techniques have been removed for safety reasons. Other Aikido schools have randori and it serves the purpose pretty well, though not being perfect.

In my humble opinion, Aikido is no better or worse than any other art, each has their strengths and weaknesses. I don’t practice Aikido anymore myself, beyond occasional visits to a dojo I’m friendly with. The art I do practice is very similar in many respects however, and nothing I’ve said dramatically conflicts with my past or current experiences in Aikido.

Thus, I have laid out my explanations for why I do what I do and my thoughts on randori and resistance training in these traditional arts. If this is not a clear enough explanation for someone, I’m not sure I have anything else to say to try to convince them otherwise. Honestly, I really just don’t care that much anymore at this point in my training.

Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas!

Cheers!
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411946 - 12/04/08 12:19 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
tomh777 Offline
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Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Speaking as a practioner of a hybrid that is probably closer to sanuces ryu than it is to true aiki jutsu and speaking as someone who has zero interest in participating in MMA I think that some sort of resistance/randori training is essential in testing my capabilities and the usefulness of the techniques I use. For instance when my uke does a sterotypical forward punch (and nothing else) as I step offline and send him flying with a beautifully executed kote gaeshi my confidence is built but I'm concerned that I'm also building a delusion. The reality is in the street most folks interested in pounding me to a pulp won't throw a punch and just stand there, they will be jabbing, biting, kicking, doing whatever it takes to knock me down. Maybe, my perspective is warped because I do outreach counseling in the inner city but the reality is many of the neighborhoods I go into have people who have honed their fighting skills in prison and for me to assume that I'm better trained than them is a naive and potentially dangerous belief to hold

Quote:


Of course Judo has “sparring”, but all the best techniques are against the “rules” of these matches. Tomiki Aikido has “sparring” competitions as well, but again, most of the dangerous techniques have been removed for safety reasons. Other Aikido schools have randori and it serves the purpose pretty well, though not being perfect.





Here's my frustration with that though. Even though in judo the dangerous techniques have been taken out and/or modified most judo techniques can be easily tweaked on the street to be extremely dangerous (e.g. using eri seoi-nage to drive a person straight down on their head instead of scooping your arms up at the end of the throw to protect uke's fall). Also with judo randori both partners are continuously attacking and defending. Since in aikido randori uke and tori take turns attacking and defending it still isn't quite as reality based. In general it seems that it might be a little harder to test aikido's effectiveness as compared to some other martial arts.
All that to say, "Yes" I think that some sort of resistance training/randori, etc, is important as part of training.

My 2 cents (2.5 cents if your in Canada )

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#411947 - 12/04/08 09:30 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: tomh777]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< Since in aikido randori uke and tori take turns attacking and defending it still isn't quite as reality based. >>

The randori in our dojo has nage in the center of a ring of uke who attack continually, either randomly or sequentially

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#411948 - 12/04/08 12:19 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: iaibear]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I think what Tom is talking about isn't 'continuous attack' in the sense of 'uke keeps attacking and tori keeps throwing', but rather that uke attacks and tries NOT to be thrown by counterthrowing or other means (a la Judo).
The circle drill is a fun one, but it's not really the same thing. Uke offers little to no resistence and once thrown, the next uke does the same. What Tom is saying, and he should correct me if I'm wrong, is that a more 'reality based' training should naturally include this resisting/countering element, as that is more likely to occur on the street.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411949 - 12/04/08 03:08 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
A.J., let me begin by saying that, although I appreciated you input, I think it's unfair that you ask me to 'directly answer' your questions, and yet, even when I do so, you fail to give me the same courtesy. So again, based on this:

Quote:

I’m interested in resolving (as quickly as possible) a spontaneous violent encounter in the real world where I have no choice but to fall back on my empty-hand skills as a last resort




As though somehow Aikido or JJJ is more 'reality based' than certain 'sporting' styles? Again, I would like to know what in particular makes an art that is mostly built on defensive techinques against wrist grabs and over commited punches any more 'reality based' than the MMA you contrast it to? If you answer nothing else, I honestly would like your take on this, because this is something I have heard from many, without it EVER being clarified.

A.J., you asked me to directly answer your question, and I did so, yet you fail to touch on any points I have raised, and then state that you "honestly just don’t care that much anymore this point in my training." Well, that's fine, but if you don't care enough to directly speak to points that conflict with your own, why even bother getting involved in the thread in the first place?

Quote:

Here’s your stance on Aikido, and correct me if I’m wrong here.




Alright, I will correct you--it is wrong.You didn't ask me for my "stance on Aikido" you asked me for insights gained using Aikido in randori. Those are two diffirent things.

Quote:

Aikido has no unique principles and there are much better ways to learn the principles it does contain.




Keepign what I said above in mind, I don't think I was clear enough when I said:
Quote:

3. The priciples of Aikido are found in every other grappling art I've experianced.



I didn't mean that Aikido has nothing original to it. I was speaking here to kinesthetic principles, and trying to express that many feel that Aikido has some unique set of physical principles (as though when an Aikidoka does a wrist lock the body moves diffirently than, say, when I combatives guy does one). What I was speaking to here, was that I have found that the physical principles that guide Aikido are found in every other grappling art. The strategic and philosophic principles are another matter (and thread) all together.

Quote:

Further, Aikido techniques themselves do not work against a “trained fighter”.




Yes, and that is largely because of the difference in training methodologies. Let me remind yout that in your first post, and subsequent posts, you have very much implied the same.

Quote:

Because they do not work, one has to go outside the art to bring back techniques or training methodologies that do.





I don't recall saying anything about brining in techniques from other arts (not that I am necessarly opposed to it). By your admission Saotome has done this (with Shotokan strikes), as has Nishio to name another.

As for the training methodology thing, again I'm not sure one one have to go 'outside' Aikido for that either, what I meant when I said that (again, fault is mine here for not being clear enough), was you have to go outside "mainstream Aikido". Tomiki style Aikido already has this method of training, and method of applying Aikido in a fully resistive setting.
That being said, if you can't find Tomiki (it's hard to come by), Judo is a perfectly fine option.
And yes, I do feel you need the experiance of resistive randori in order to validate the utility of your techniques.

Quote:

attempted to explain in my previous post (perhaps not well enough) that I do not train to face off against a “trained fighter”. To me, this seems to be where you’re coming from.




It was where I was coming from, because you asked me about my experiance of using Aikido in these settings, yes. I'm not suggesting that Aikido should be retooled for MMA competion, if that's what your thinking.

Quote:

That is, Aikido working in a “sparring” match in the dojo against another “trained fighter”.




Why shouldn't Aikido work in shiai against, say, a Judoka? Ueshiba certainly proved it could. Why (and this goes back to my first question) should the ability to use Aikido against a competent martial artist detract from its self defence capabilities?
It seem only logical that it would add to them.

Quote:

That is, Aikido working in a “sparring” match in the dojo against another “trained fighter”. Aikido, Aikijujutsu or most traditional Japanese jujutsu systems in general do not focus on teaching their students to win in such situations.



Most Aikido and DR, yes. But you shouldn't lump "tradional Japenese jujutsu", despite the fact that so many do. Tradional JJJ did, in fact, practice shiai (competition sparring) regularly--and some koryu still do. If they did not, who would the Kodokan fought in their famous challenge?
The fact is that many, many tradional ryu's, (both sword and jujutsu) at one time or another, have trained their members for the goal of winning shiai competion.

Quote:

Of course Judo has “sparring”, but all the best techniques are against the “rules” of these matches.



I don't get this. What 'best techniques' are you refering to? Are you talking about those ones that are found in Koryu JJ? If so, those were allowed in those early Kodokan challenges I spoke of earlier. The Judo guys, with their 'inferior' (or 'not best') techniques ended up winning, even though the other ryu's were allowed to many try these techniques.

Quote:

Tomiki Aikido has “sparring” competitions as well, but again, most of the dangerous techniques have been removed for safety reasons




Actually, the bread and butter techniques of Aikido are pretty much all practiced during Tomiki Style shiai. Here are the rules, along with the allowable techinques:

http://www.tomiki.org/files/Intl_Randori_Rules.pdf

The other thing that strikes me as strange about this point of 'too dangerous to spar' is, not that you have said this here, Aikido is often refered to as 'the art of peace', or some other epithet which suggests the possiblility of a less destructive outcome to combat; that the techniques have the potential to end combat with little destruction to an opponent. If this is so, why doesn't this hold for resistive setting in the dojo, where people should be BETTER equiped to safely disengage before injury.
Something doesn't line up here. Either the techniques are highly injurous, or they can be controlled by an experianced practioner and do little harm (in which case this should hold true for shiai). It's one or the other here folks.

Quote:

Thus, I have laid out my explanations for why I do what I do and my thoughts on randori and resistance training in these traditional arts. If this is not a clear enough explanation for someone, I’m not sure I have anything else to say to try to convince them otherwise.




And now we come to the part of your post that disturbed me. You directly asked for me to speak to your point and I did so in good faith. You, for whatever reason, have not extended that courtesy. Your explanation is fine for your own reasons, but, lets be honest, you have failed to answer any questions posed of it. That's why it remains unclear to me. You haven't tried to actually clarify anyting in relation to any of my questions--instead you have just restated the same thing as though I never asked them.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411950 - 12/04/08 04:03 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Chris,

I’d love to answer any questions you have that you feel I didn’t answer already. Shoot! However, keep in mind that I just don’t have much interest in going around in circles...


Edited by A.J. Bryant (12/04/08 04:04 PM)
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411951 - 12/04/08 05:12 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
What I would like you to clarify, if you would, is what in particular makes Aikido (or JJJ for that matter) more reality based than sporting styles (such as Judo, BJJ etc.)? What in particular, in your opinion, makes these styles less suitable for 'real world application'?

I'm wondering because you said:
Quote:

I think we have two completely different mindsets here. I’m not interested in, or training for a competitive encounter. I’m interested in resolving (as quickly as possible) a spontaneous violent encounter in the real world where I have no choice but to fall back on my empty-hand skills as a last resort (i.e., I didn’t avoid the encounter, escape, bring a weapon, find one within reach, etc.).





And to clarify on my end, no, I don't think we have diffirent mindsets in this regard. I'm primarily interested in self defence as well, over competition.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (12/04/08 05:54 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411952 - 12/04/08 11:35 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit




And to clarify on my end, no, I don't think we have diffirent mindsets in this regard. I'm primarily interested in self defence as well, over competition.

--Chris



Ditto from here. As I've already stated I have zero interest in participating in MMA (and my body is to beat up to compete in judo). But I do want the self defense techniques that I'm trained in to be as testable as possible. I am not at all knocking aikido/aiki jutsu but like it or not the MMA folks do a better job of "testing" their techniques by the nature of their competition. I realize that resistance, competion, etc. is anathema to many aikidoka's view of what "true aikido" is. But I think that those of us who do the aiki arts, even if we refuse to train with resistance/competition,etc, need to at least be intellectually honest about the potential lack of verifiability of the effectiveness of the techniquest that we believe we can defend ourselves with.

My 2 cents

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#411953 - 12/05/08 02:04 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
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Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Nothing!

The arts themselves are no less reality based. Both BJJ and Judo are great arts and have plenty of standing waza, self-defense waza, etc. The problem is when the competitive training in these arts becomes the focus; that’s where the practicality often gets a bit compromised or placed on the backburner and the focus becomes sport. If I insinuated otherwise, that’s my fault for not being clearer.

My disagreement is when the shoe is put on the other foot. Aikido or other forms of traditional Japanese Jujutsu or Aikijujutsu (i.e. Daito-ryu and offshoots) are most assuredly looked upon as being less reality based, effective, and subsequently less worthy of study than other, more modern arts, because they don’t have a sporting, or readily apparent “sparring” aspect.

Aikido has all of the components that these other arts do. They are just taught and trained differently, perhaps less aggressively in some schools than others, and at different times in a students training (depending on the art), but they exist. Aikido (etc.) has:

1. Kihon Waza - Used to teach the fundamental techniques/principles of the art
2. Jiyuwaza/Randori - Used to introduce and hone spontaneous application of the principles in a controlled environment
3. Kaeshi Waza - Resistance training/application of the principles against an uncooperative participant in a less controlled environment (still not an considered an “opponent” or fellow “competitor” however)

To place a different perspective on this would be to consider that these same components are found in most classical Japanese weapons arts as well. To say for instance that Kendo is superior to classical Kenjutsu because they train regularly in competitive swordsmanship is equally as faulty as the current debate in my opinion. Just because Katori Shinto-ryu doesn’t strap on bogu and go at it doesn’t mean their kata only training hasn’t produced some of the most formidable swordsman in Japanese history.

To say that Aikido is faulty because someone couldn’t get their training to work for them, to me, only says they didn’t train correctly or long enough. Just like anything else worthwhile, you don’t become an expert or skilled in a year or two; it takes years and likely decades. No different than becoming a skilled carpenter or plumber.

Again, just my opinion here. Hope this clarifies a few things I may have not explained thoroughly enough.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411954 - 12/05/08 02:33 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
MattJ Offline
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Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

To say that Aikido is faulty because someone couldn’t get their training to work for them, to me, only says they didn’t train correctly or long enough.




There is some merit to that statement. Part of the problem that MMA folk have had with Aiki folk is not neccessarily lack of skill, but rather an excessively long learning curve. But, as noted by AJ earlier, that may or may not be a factor for one's practice.

Quote:

Just like anything else worthwhile, you don’t become an expert or skilled in a year or two; it takes years and likely decades.




True, although there is a big difference between functional and expert. Not everyone is trying to be an expert, but everyone training martial arts should be trying for functional. That can come quickly.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#411955 - 12/06/08 01:34 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The arts themselves are no less reality based. Both BJJ and Judo are great arts and have plenty of standing waza, self-defense waza, etc. The problem is when the competitive training in these arts becomes the focus; that’s where the practicality often gets a bit compromised or placed on the backburner and the focus becomes sport. If I insinuated otherwise, that’s my fault for not being clearer.





Thanks for clarifying. I agree with you here totally.



Quote:

Aikido has all of the components that these other arts do.




I respectfully disagree. The vast majority of Aikido dojo do not have resistive sparring, meaning: uke attempts to counter, by throw, strike, or other means, tori's attempt to use the technique.

Quote:

They are just taught and trained differently, perhaps less aggressively in some schools than others, and at different times in a students training ( depending on the art ), but they exist. Aikido (etc.) has:





Perhaps the problem we are having here, is that I'm specfically talking about Aikido, whereas you are talking about JJJ as a whole (at least it seems that way). Although Aikido does have:

Quote:

. Kihon Waza - Used to teach the fundamental techniques/principles of the art
2. Jiyuwaza/Randori - Used to introduce and hone spontaneous application of the principles in a controlled environment
3. Kaeshi Waza - Resistance training/application of the principles against an uncooperative participant in a less controlled environment (still not an considered an “opponent” or fellow “competitor” however)





The jiyuwaza/randori is completely compliant in most Aikido dojo out there. In JJJ, this is definately not always so (which makes me wonder why Aikido ever started practicing in the method they do).

I would hardly call the kaeshi-waza of Aikido, as use of the techniques against "an uncooperative participant". The only way these participents are uncooperative, is that they are encouraged to muscle their way in, which generally makes the technique easier. They are not encouraged to counter throw, strike, or negate the technique through body skill. In other words the role of 'uke' and 'tori' remains well defined throughout the practice of kaeshi waza.

For those unfamiliar with Aikido style kaeshi waza, here is a clip, which matches my experiance with it pretty well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_SB0TqvUb8

I think this is good example of how kaeshi waza is usually practiced in Aikido, where the uke role stays well defined.

Quote:

To place a different perspective on this would be to consider that these same components are found in most classical Japanese weapons arts as well.




They are. They are found in most Jujutsu styles as well. But the thing is, the way Aikido uses these components is seemingly very diffirent. The kaeshi-waza is a good example. Compare what I just posted to Ellis Amdur's description of Araki ryu's use of this.

Quote:

To say for instance that Kendo is superior to classical Kenjutsu because they train regularly in competitive swordsmanship is equally as faulty as the current debate in my opinion. Just because Katori Shinto-ryu doesn’t strap on bogu and go at it doesn’t mean their kata only training hasn’t produced some of the most formidable swordsman in Japanese history.





Actually, many classical Kenjutsu styles do indeed have 'competitive' training (shiai): Ono Ha Itto Ryu,and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and Muto Ryu are three that come to mind. The difference between their shiai and that of modern Kendo's is that their shiai is more inclusive: disarms, and throws (so I've been told) are allowed, there are more allowed targets, etc. I'd have to do some research to see if Katori Shinto Ryu ever practices shiai, but I wouldn't be suprised if they did. Most of their "formidable swordsman in Japanese history" did, afterall, prove themselves in shiai (though a very dangerous form of it).

Quote:

To say that Aikido is faulty because someone couldn’t get their training to work for them, to me, only says they didn’t train correctly or long enough.




I think Matt's point pretty much echoes mine here. Aikido can be made to work. But (and this comes from top sensei, who have personally told me this) it takes a minimum of ten years. Now, that just seems to be an awful long time. Which is why I'm questioning whether or not that amount of time is totally necessary or is it related to the training methods that Aikido employs? Training methods which, as I have shown, run contrary even to the traditional JMA mileau from which it sprung.

Further, I still haven't actually seen evidence to suggest that after this ten or twenty year mark is met, these skills suddenly manifest, as if by magic. Why should they? During those ten to twenty years, the average Aikidoka has usually never ONCE used his skills against someone who didn't cooperate.

My personal experiance would only be that--my own--and unable to speak for the many, if other long time Aikidoka didn't also experiance a difficultly in using Aikido against an uncooperative uke. The fact is, they do. Here is Koichi Tohei, the only person given a 10th dan by Ueshiba, attempting to use Aikido against a uncooperative and completely untrained uke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3bI-VyDg&feature=related

You would think someone with the amount of training Tohei had would be able to more easily handle this guy. Yet, his posture constantly breaks, one can see that he is relying on muscle, and the there is almost no actual Aikido technique actualy used here. One can only imagine what this would be like against a Judoka of equal martial experiance.
Did Tohei have subpar instruction? Did he not have enough training time?

Quote:

Just like anything else worthwhile, you don’t become an expert or skilled in a year or two; it takes years and likely decades. No different than becoming a skilled carpenter or plumber.





In all due respect, if it took a carpenter or plumber decades to be able to use their skill, I don't think there would be many houses getting built. You don't become an expert in a year or two in anything, that's true. But you should be able to demonstrate some level of ability to use your skills towards the purported goal (in the case of Aikido, martial skill). Using your analogy, if a carpenter, after two years of woodworking, was no better at wookworking than the average guy on the street, I think most people would agree that there is something wrong with the way that capenter is being trained.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (12/06/08 01:36 PM)
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#411956 - 12/06/08 08:21 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< Aikido can be made to work. But (and this comes from top sensei, who have personally told me this) it takes a minimum of ten years. Now, that just seems to be an awful long time. Which is why I'm questioning whether or not that amount of time is totally necessary or is it related to the training methods that Aikido employs? Training methods which, as I have shown, run contrary even to the traditional JMA milieu from which it sprung.>>

Still here and still trying to make coherent sense of Aikido. I started in 1994 being taught "techniques" right from the testing syllabus. Switched schools in 2000 and have not "learned" one technique since. Still trying, but I am not a "theory" person. I am a "by rote" person. If things are not explained, details pointed out, that sort of thing, three maybe four moves in and I get lost.

That is my ongoing problem. But at my age I still do try. After all, it has only been fourteen years.

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#411957 - 12/09/08 11:59 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: iaibear]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
iaibear, I respect your dedication. But I guess situations like yours are one of reasons I made the o.p. I have known many, many people who have trained for ten+ years and still have not made "coherent sense of Aikido". So, what I'm wondering is, why is that? Because to me, that is absolutely unacceptable when someone has that much dedication to that art, yet still can't make sense of it. As I said, it's not just iaibear here, there are many people that I know personally, who say the samething.

At what point does someone admit that there might be something a bit wrong with the training method?

Or am I totally wrong here?

--Chris


Edited by Ames (12/10/08 12:00 AM)
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411958 - 12/10/08 11:57 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Chris wrote _ I have known many, many people who have trained for ten+ years and still have not made "coherent sense of Aikido". So, what I'm wondering is, why is that? Because to me, that is absolutely unacceptable when someone has that much dedication to that art, yet still can't make sense of it. As I said, it's not just iaibear here, there are many people that I know personally, who say the samething.


456 - Alot of Aikido practictioners are ex-Judo or Jujitsu originally and some of this IS true even today so they have had resisitence training the principles of Aikido in action actually are pretty much the same as they call it in perfect Judo or Jujitsu no effort. On the streets I've mentioned this before Aikido looks like Judo r Jujitsu the guy doesn't fly in the air heels scraping the ceiling and roll out (being snide but truthful).

What happens (when I used it and I'm not very good at it) is that the person after being soften up can't resist and usually dances around on his/her tip toes screaming or falls to the ground or one knee crying or screaming even peeing on themselves. Aikido looks pretty in the dojo but in application its a ugly vicious art. Every move is trying to break something after you hit them in the throat or chin or balls, then you apply your stuff. The screaming can wake up the dead!!


Edited by Neko456 (12/10/08 12:06 PM)
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#411959 - 12/10/08 12:51 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Neko456]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Yesterday in the dojo we were working on one-wrist grab/punch/shomen that gets nage to respond with
irimi omote and/or ura or
nikkyo or sankyo or yonkyo

There was no way I could remember which foot went where/when or which response was a grab or a two-forearm block/misdirect. etc.

Our student instructor commented "Maybe you would be more comfortable with a yokomen." He took a diagonal swing at my neck, Suddenly a ten year old motor-memory kicked in: I stepped out and back, intercepted his attack, turned it into a shihonage and dumped him, surprising everyone including me.

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#411960 - 12/11/08 11:32 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: iaibear]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
Quote:



There was no way I could remember which foot went where/when or which response was a grab or a two-forearm block/misdirect. etc.






which is probably why you don't see much randori in Aikido then.... I've got to the stage with my JJ now that there are certain techniques I just chuck in the bin. When you try for a technique and suddenly think, 'Sh*t, I've got the wrong leg forward,' and so on - there's just no way (bar practising for 10 years) it can be introduced effectively in a randori situation. I guess there's a reason 4 or 5 techniques are always favoured, especially in something like Judo - they've got to be practical and functional.

On the ground, if something doesn't work it's not necessarily the end of the fight. But in the stand-up, if someone tries the famed wrist grab / strike thing and the guy's still standing there, he'll have punched them repeatedly with his other hand by the time they realise what's going on.

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#411961 - 01/28/09 01:38 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: NewJitsu]
AdamAlexander Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 30
Quote:

Do you think Aikido would benifit from the introduction of this facet of training, or would it suffer? If you think it would suffer, what in particular do you think would be affected?




I believe it would suffer.

I believe that randori/resistance has the goal of learning about the bodies/reactions/movements of others. However, how can you learn those facets of others when you haven't mastered them within yourself?

As another person mentioned, it's like learning to play a piano-- You want to practice on one, right? However, I say while learning to play a piano, you don't want anyone grabbing at your fingers.

Quote:

Chris wrote _ I have known many, many people who have trained for ten+ years and still have not made "coherent sense of Aikido". So, what I'm wondering is, why is that? Because to me, that is absolutely unacceptable when someone has that much dedication to that art, yet still can't make sense of it. As I said, it's not just iaibear here, there are many people that I know personally, who say the samething.




I believe you get out what you put in. If all you do is show up for class but fail to commit the deep attention to the movements, then you're coming back to class day after day walking in the same circle.
_________________________
Always the man in whom thought thrusts ahead of thought, allows the goal to move far off.

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#411962 - 01/28/09 06:36 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: AdamAlexander]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Thank you for the response Alexander.

I think this thread has come first circle, so I'm locking it. If anyone wishes to contribute further, just p.m. and it can be reopened.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/28/09 06:49 AM)
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