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#411955 - 12/06/08 01:34 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The arts themselves are no less reality based. Both BJJ and Judo are great arts and have plenty of standing waza, self-defense waza, etc. The problem is when the competitive training in these arts becomes the focus; that’s where the practicality often gets a bit compromised or placed on the backburner and the focus becomes sport. If I insinuated otherwise, that’s my fault for not being clearer.





Thanks for clarifying. I agree with you here totally.



Quote:

Aikido has all of the components that these other arts do.




I respectfully disagree. The vast majority of Aikido dojo do not have resistive sparring, meaning: uke attempts to counter, by throw, strike, or other means, tori's attempt to use the technique.

Quote:

They are just taught and trained differently, perhaps less aggressively in some schools than others, and at different times in a students training ( depending on the art ), but they exist. Aikido (etc.) has:





Perhaps the problem we are having here, is that I'm specfically talking about Aikido, whereas you are talking about JJJ as a whole (at least it seems that way). Although Aikido does have:

Quote:

. Kihon Waza - Used to teach the fundamental techniques/principles of the art
2. Jiyuwaza/Randori - Used to introduce and hone spontaneous application of the principles in a controlled environment
3. Kaeshi Waza - Resistance training/application of the principles against an uncooperative participant in a less controlled environment (still not an considered an “opponent” or fellow “competitor” however)





The jiyuwaza/randori is completely compliant in most Aikido dojo out there. In JJJ, this is definately not always so (which makes me wonder why Aikido ever started practicing in the method they do).

I would hardly call the kaeshi-waza of Aikido, as use of the techniques against "an uncooperative participant". The only way these participents are uncooperative, is that they are encouraged to muscle their way in, which generally makes the technique easier. They are not encouraged to counter throw, strike, or negate the technique through body skill. In other words the role of 'uke' and 'tori' remains well defined throughout the practice of kaeshi waza.

For those unfamiliar with Aikido style kaeshi waza, here is a clip, which matches my experiance with it pretty well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_SB0TqvUb8

I think this is good example of how kaeshi waza is usually practiced in Aikido, where the uke role stays well defined.

Quote:

To place a different perspective on this would be to consider that these same components are found in most classical Japanese weapons arts as well.




They are. They are found in most Jujutsu styles as well. But the thing is, the way Aikido uses these components is seemingly very diffirent. The kaeshi-waza is a good example. Compare what I just posted to Ellis Amdur's description of Araki ryu's use of this.

Quote:

To say for instance that Kendo is superior to classical Kenjutsu because they train regularly in competitive swordsmanship is equally as faulty as the current debate in my opinion. Just because Katori Shinto-ryu doesn’t strap on bogu and go at it doesn’t mean their kata only training hasn’t produced some of the most formidable swordsman in Japanese history.





Actually, many classical Kenjutsu styles do indeed have 'competitive' training (shiai): Ono Ha Itto Ryu,and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and Muto Ryu are three that come to mind. The difference between their shiai and that of modern Kendo's is that their shiai is more inclusive: disarms, and throws (so I've been told) are allowed, there are more allowed targets, etc. I'd have to do some research to see if Katori Shinto Ryu ever practices shiai, but I wouldn't be suprised if they did. Most of their "formidable swordsman in Japanese history" did, afterall, prove themselves in shiai (though a very dangerous form of it).

Quote:

To say that Aikido is faulty because someone couldn’t get their training to work for them, to me, only says they didn’t train correctly or long enough.




I think Matt's point pretty much echoes mine here. Aikido can be made to work. But (and this comes from top sensei, who have personally told me this) it takes a minimum of ten years. Now, that just seems to be an awful long time. Which is why I'm questioning whether or not that amount of time is totally necessary or is it related to the training methods that Aikido employs? Training methods which, as I have shown, run contrary even to the traditional JMA mileau from which it sprung.

Further, I still haven't actually seen evidence to suggest that after this ten or twenty year mark is met, these skills suddenly manifest, as if by magic. Why should they? During those ten to twenty years, the average Aikidoka has usually never ONCE used his skills against someone who didn't cooperate.

My personal experiance would only be that--my own--and unable to speak for the many, if other long time Aikidoka didn't also experiance a difficultly in using Aikido against an uncooperative uke. The fact is, they do. Here is Koichi Tohei, the only person given a 10th dan by Ueshiba, attempting to use Aikido against a uncooperative and completely untrained uke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3bI-VyDg&feature=related

You would think someone with the amount of training Tohei had would be able to more easily handle this guy. Yet, his posture constantly breaks, one can see that he is relying on muscle, and the there is almost no actual Aikido technique actualy used here. One can only imagine what this would be like against a Judoka of equal martial experiance.
Did Tohei have subpar instruction? Did he not have enough training time?

Quote:

Just like anything else worthwhile, you don’t become an expert or skilled in a year or two; it takes years and likely decades. No different than becoming a skilled carpenter or plumber.





In all due respect, if it took a carpenter or plumber decades to be able to use their skill, I don't think there would be many houses getting built. You don't become an expert in a year or two in anything, that's true. But you should be able to demonstrate some level of ability to use your skills towards the purported goal (in the case of Aikido, martial skill). Using your analogy, if a carpenter, after two years of woodworking, was no better at wookworking than the average guy on the street, I think most people would agree that there is something wrong with the way that capenter is being trained.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (12/06/08 01:36 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411956 - 12/06/08 08:21 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< Aikido can be made to work. But (and this comes from top sensei, who have personally told me this) it takes a minimum of ten years. Now, that just seems to be an awful long time. Which is why I'm questioning whether or not that amount of time is totally necessary or is it related to the training methods that Aikido employs? Training methods which, as I have shown, run contrary even to the traditional JMA milieu from which it sprung.>>

Still here and still trying to make coherent sense of Aikido. I started in 1994 being taught "techniques" right from the testing syllabus. Switched schools in 2000 and have not "learned" one technique since. Still trying, but I am not a "theory" person. I am a "by rote" person. If things are not explained, details pointed out, that sort of thing, three maybe four moves in and I get lost.

That is my ongoing problem. But at my age I still do try. After all, it has only been fourteen years.

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#411957 - 12/09/08 11:59 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: iaibear]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
iaibear, I respect your dedication. But I guess situations like yours are one of reasons I made the o.p. I have known many, many people who have trained for ten+ years and still have not made "coherent sense of Aikido". So, what I'm wondering is, why is that? Because to me, that is absolutely unacceptable when someone has that much dedication to that art, yet still can't make sense of it. As I said, it's not just iaibear here, there are many people that I know personally, who say the samething.

At what point does someone admit that there might be something a bit wrong with the training method?

Or am I totally wrong here?

--Chris


Edited by Ames (12/10/08 12:00 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411958 - 12/10/08 11:57 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Chris wrote _ I have known many, many people who have trained for ten+ years and still have not made "coherent sense of Aikido". So, what I'm wondering is, why is that? Because to me, that is absolutely unacceptable when someone has that much dedication to that art, yet still can't make sense of it. As I said, it's not just iaibear here, there are many people that I know personally, who say the samething.


456 - Alot of Aikido practictioners are ex-Judo or Jujitsu originally and some of this IS true even today so they have had resisitence training the principles of Aikido in action actually are pretty much the same as they call it in perfect Judo or Jujitsu no effort. On the streets I've mentioned this before Aikido looks like Judo r Jujitsu the guy doesn't fly in the air heels scraping the ceiling and roll out (being snide but truthful).

What happens (when I used it and I'm not very good at it) is that the person after being soften up can't resist and usually dances around on his/her tip toes screaming or falls to the ground or one knee crying or screaming even peeing on themselves. Aikido looks pretty in the dojo but in application its a ugly vicious art. Every move is trying to break something after you hit them in the throat or chin or balls, then you apply your stuff. The screaming can wake up the dead!!


Edited by Neko456 (12/10/08 12:06 PM)
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#411959 - 12/10/08 12:51 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Neko456]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Yesterday in the dojo we were working on one-wrist grab/punch/shomen that gets nage to respond with
irimi omote and/or ura or
nikkyo or sankyo or yonkyo

There was no way I could remember which foot went where/when or which response was a grab or a two-forearm block/misdirect. etc.

Our student instructor commented "Maybe you would be more comfortable with a yokomen." He took a diagonal swing at my neck, Suddenly a ten year old motor-memory kicked in: I stepped out and back, intercepted his attack, turned it into a shihonage and dumped him, surprising everyone including me.

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#411960 - 12/11/08 11:32 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: iaibear]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
Quote:



There was no way I could remember which foot went where/when or which response was a grab or a two-forearm block/misdirect. etc.






which is probably why you don't see much randori in Aikido then.... I've got to the stage with my JJ now that there are certain techniques I just chuck in the bin. When you try for a technique and suddenly think, 'Sh*t, I've got the wrong leg forward,' and so on - there's just no way (bar practising for 10 years) it can be introduced effectively in a randori situation. I guess there's a reason 4 or 5 techniques are always favoured, especially in something like Judo - they've got to be practical and functional.

On the ground, if something doesn't work it's not necessarily the end of the fight. But in the stand-up, if someone tries the famed wrist grab / strike thing and the guy's still standing there, he'll have punched them repeatedly with his other hand by the time they realise what's going on.

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#411961 - 01/28/09 01:38 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: NewJitsu]
AdamAlexander Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 30
Quote:

Do you think Aikido would benifit from the introduction of this facet of training, or would it suffer? If you think it would suffer, what in particular do you think would be affected?




I believe it would suffer.

I believe that randori/resistance has the goal of learning about the bodies/reactions/movements of others. However, how can you learn those facets of others when you haven't mastered them within yourself?

As another person mentioned, it's like learning to play a piano-- You want to practice on one, right? However, I say while learning to play a piano, you don't want anyone grabbing at your fingers.

Quote:

Chris wrote _ I have known many, many people who have trained for ten+ years and still have not made "coherent sense of Aikido". So, what I'm wondering is, why is that? Because to me, that is absolutely unacceptable when someone has that much dedication to that art, yet still can't make sense of it. As I said, it's not just iaibear here, there are many people that I know personally, who say the samething.




I believe you get out what you put in. If all you do is show up for class but fail to commit the deep attention to the movements, then you're coming back to class day after day walking in the same circle.
_________________________
Always the man in whom thought thrusts ahead of thought, allows the goal to move far off.

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#411962 - 01/28/09 06:36 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: AdamAlexander]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Thank you for the response Alexander.

I think this thread has come first circle, so I'm locking it. If anyone wishes to contribute further, just p.m. and it can be reopened.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/28/09 06:49 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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