FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 62 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 3
MattJ 2
Marcus Charles 1
TooNice 1
cxt 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Jeff_G
03/30/14 12:44 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432375 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 4 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#411935 - 11/28/08 10:25 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jim -

Quote:

BJJ is foolish for prison guards. Rolling around on the floor in a crowded jail cell s a pretty bad idea. The other 5 guys in there will just stomp on you.




You want it to be foolish, I'm sure. But if the guards are training it of their own accord, what does that say?

And what do you propose when (not if) someone gets one of the guards down? Give up? Maybe they learn BJJ because they aren't arrogant/foolish enough to assume that they CAN'T be taken down. I have been told that the BJJ training they get at my school has come in handy more than once.

You are simply wrong.

Quote:

I'm not talking about merely getting poked in the eye or hit in the groin b accident.




What's the difference? There have been a few hard hits. Doesn't matter if they were intentional or not. Those strikes are not always the fight enders you wish they were.

Quote:

I'm talking about things like kubi nage where your neck will accidentally get broken. I think there's a big difference there. The way we do irimi nage a neck can also get broken even by accident. I'm talking about doing nikajo by not just merely twisting the hand until he says ouch and taps, our nikajo is done like sword cut swift and sharp, cutting until his face hits the ground. There's no time to tap out at the speed. The wrist will be destroyed before he hits the ground. So it must be done slower and controlled. This is what happened to the idiot that came and challenged me on it. In that case, I wanted to hurt that jacka** just to teach him a lesson. I didn't want him as a student anyway.




Funny that you assume that YOU can do these techniques with no time for the other gut to tap, but apparently assume that BJJ/MMA people couldn't do theirs the same way.

This is the type of thinking that occurs when people don't spar.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#411936 - 11/28/08 05:18 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Matt,

Once again you ignorantly state that your MMA is virtually only art that can deal with a situtation on the ground. Again, I have to go back to my experience with whiny BJJ who, after being submitted by an Aikido brown belt who was on the ground with themm. complained about Aikiod technqiues being against the rules. It alwasy seems to come down to there needing to be rules to make your stuff effective. We teach that there are no rules to a fight.

You also very arrogantly, yet stupidly, claim that I have never sparred. I don't know how you would even think that you would no such a thing. But you are just as far off base here as you are in everything else you say. I have sparred quiet a bit. But again, sparring is a game, fighting is for real.

The problem here is not that BJJ/MMA people do not have the ability to perform techniques teh way we do. The problem is that they they keep claiming they will not work on them. Then, when they are proven to work they fall back on the old "that's an illegal technique" argument.

The bottom line is that BJJ/MMA is a sport designed to be played according to a specific set of rules, one-on-one, with a referee, time limits and all sorts of safety rules (which includes the banning of Aikido techniques). This is not rooted in reality and the thought that it translates to real world self defense is not rooted in inteligence.

Top
#411937 - 11/28/08 06:47 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Jim, this will be your last warning regarding personal attacks on forum members. You are free to voice what opinons you want, but do so civily. Calling another member 'stupid' will absolutely not be tolerated here.


--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/28/08 06:48 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#411938 - 11/28/08 07:19 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Ames,

Iíd be interested to hear your direct thoughts/opinions as to the effectiveness of Aikido and traditional Japanese Jujutsu under resistance and during randori. With 15 years experience in Aikido and 2 years of intense one-on-one instruction in Daito-ryu (Hakuho-kai/Hakuho-ryu), you likely have more experience than most people on this forum and surely outrank just about everyone.

Thanks.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

Top
#411939 - 11/28/08 08:19 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jim -

Quote:

Once again you ignorantly state that your MMA is virtually only art that can deal with a situtation on the ground.




???????

Where have I ever stated that? Many other arts are good on the ground. Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc. BTW, I am not a MMAer. I am not even good at BJJ.

Quote:

Again, I have to go back to my experience with whiny BJJ who, after being submitted by an Aikido brown belt who was on the ground with themm. complained about Aikiod technqiues being against the rules. It alwasy seems to come down to there needing to be rules to make your stuff effective. We teach that there are no rules to a fight.




With all due repect, those kinds of stories are the exception, not the rule.

Quote:

You also very arrogantly, yet stupidly, claim that I have never sparred. I don't know how you would even think that you would no such a thing. But you are just as far off base here as you are in everything else you say. I have sparred quiet a bit. But again, sparring is a game, fighting is for real.




I actually did not say that *you* never sparred, only that your thoughts and reasoning were representative of those who don't. However, your whip-up-on-BJJ stories do not seem to have come about from sparring, but rather from demos. And it is unclear whether or not your opponents were allowed to resist or defend. If these were free-sparring situations, then I apologize.

Quote:

The problem here is not that BJJ/MMA people do not have the ability to perform techniques teh way we do. The problem is that they they keep claiming they will not work on them. Then, when they are proven to work they fall back on the old "that's an illegal technique" argument.




Again, that depends - did they think there were rules or not? And I don't know of any BJJ people that think that Aikido techniques will "not work on them". Only that some of them are low-percentage in comparison.

Quote:

The bottom line is that BJJ/MMA is a sport designed to be played according to a specific set of rules, one-on-one, with a referee, time limits and all sorts of safety rules (which includes the banning of Aikido techniques). This is not rooted in reality and the thought that it translates to real world self defense is not rooted in inteligence.




Jim, MMA is a sport AND a fighting system - please do not confuse the two. UFC is the sporting end. However, it is descended from Vale Tudo, which was a street-fighting style in Brazil. I suggest you read up about the History of BJJ a bit.

BTW - I have long been a fan of Aikido footwork/body movement for sparring. I use it myself all the time, and consider it just as good as boxing's. The standing joint locks, not so much. Those are much harder to do when someone does not let you. That has been my basic point re: randori in Aikido.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#411940 - 11/28/08 08:50 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
AJ, I'll start with the end of your post first:

Quote:

you likely have more experience than most people on this forum and surely outrank just about everyone.





I doubt that very, very much. As I clearly stated in the post you asked this question in, my time studying Aikido was broken up and spent at various dojo, so no, my rank isn't very high. On the one hand, you could say that this is proof that I never experianced any 'real depth' in the art. And that is possible. On the other hand, if the old line about basics being the true heart of any art (which many seem to repeat again and again, and which I agree with 100%)is true, then I certainly know those quite well. But no, my rank isn't very high. Which is fine by me. I never much cared for rank, and perhaps thats mainly why I never persued it.

As for my Hakuho Ryu training, most of my study concerned the Ikkajo waza, although my Sensei and I did go over a number of higher waza many times. My sensei had, and has, a somewhat innovative way of teaching, and some of our classes were just henka. I feel I learned much with him. The only reason I'm not studying with him now is that we live in diffirent cities and my back is such that it needs some time before I can breakfall again. But no, no great rank there either.

All that being said, precisely what my personal background has to do with this thread in particular, is beyond me. I haven't used my experiance as evidence that my claims are beyond reproach, or anything of the like.

Quote:

Iíd be interested to hear your direct thoughts/opinions as to the effectiveness of Aikido and traditional Japanese Jujutsu under resistance and during randori.




That's a tough question, and if I was able to easily answer it, I probably wouldn't have made this thread in the first place.

I will give you some of my thoughts, but they are provisional, and subject to change.

These are some things I have personally come to through sparring with fairly skilled practioners of other styles. I'm going to keep this on the topic of Aikido, because Aikido and DR, despite what many seem to think, are two distinct arts. Anyway:

1. Aikido is an indirect martial art.
What I mean by this, is that a lot of what Aikido teaches you, is indirect knowledge. A 'technique' is just a principle and that principle can be applied in many diffirent ways. That being said, I think a weakness here is that these techniques, for cultural/historical reasons like you alluded to, are never really pragmatic.

2. To apply Aikido against a trained fighter, you have to go outside Aikido.
In other words, because Aikido doesn't contain many pragmatic techniques (for the reasons stated above), and because there is no way to test what would-be functional techniques there are, you have to look outside for a delivery system to apply what you have learned. Once you have a delivery system, certain basic henka of certain techniques become more possble.

3. The priciples of Aikido are found in every other grappling art I've experianced. Many of the principles are also found in non-grappling arts.
This is not to say that Aikido doesn't have it's own unique way of teaching these principles, just that the principles themselves are not unique.

4. There may be more effective ways to train those principles, such as by actually testing them in something which better simulates actual combat.

This is only my opinion, and I was asked for it. There's a good chance I'm leaving some stuff out, but I'm beat and I post some more later.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/29/08 12:20 AM)

Top
#411941 - 11/29/08 05:16 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
Quote:

Iíd be interested to hear your direct thoughts/opinions as to the effectiveness of Aikido and traditional Japanese Jujutsu under resistance and during randori.




JJJ + randori = Judo

That's my experience anyway. It quickly turns into a grappling situation where even experienced jitsuka rely on just a few moves, always including o soto gari. I have found JJJ very useful in brawls as long as one knows how to employ the fence and understands the brain is the best weapon, but against a skilled (and sober) opponent not so effective. One of my friends has studied JJJ since he was a kid; he's turning pro MMA next year and says JJJ hardly registers in his repertoire. OK, so it's a sport but I'd still class this as as close to a live encounter as possible, especially from the body reaction / adrenaline POV that I mentioned earlier. For me, that is the determining factor - you can be the best fighter in the world, but if your nerves let you down you're stuffed. Which is why IMHO randori / sparring is a must.

I'd say the same of Aikido....

Top
#411942 - 11/30/08 01:20 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
This might be an interesting direction to take this thread...

A.J. (and anyone else)

What, if any, insights have you gained through randori that you did not through waza practice alone?

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/30/08 01:52 AM)

Top
#411943 - 12/03/08 12:27 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Sorry for the late reply,

I think we have two completely different mindsets here. Iím not interested in, or training for a competitive encounter. Iím interested in resolving (as quickly as possible) a spontaneous violent encounter in the real world where I have no choice but to fall back on my empty-hand skills as a last resort (i.e., I didnít avoid the encounter, escape, bring a weapon, find one within reach, etc.).

Training for that context in the dojo setting, what have I learned from randori/freestyle practice?

1. Move! Itís hard to catch or strike a moving target.

2. Nothing works 100% of the time and you must be willing to flow from technique to technique. People donít react the way you think they will in spontaneous situations, so you must be willing to go with the flow.

3. Who ever said there are no kicks, punches or blocks in Aikido/Aikijujutsu? This covers a lot of situations where joint locks/throws go wrong. The question is, how good is one at executing them and are your training partners giving you good attacks? One Aikido teacher (Mitsugi Saotome) used to bring a high ranked Shotokan teacher into his dojo to teach his Aikido students just these skills. Aikido/Aikijujutsu isnít perfect. Iím now training in Goju-ryu myself, but I digress...

4. Someone wants to box with me, great, I adjust the maai/deflect accordingly until they decide to throw me a committed attack. Did I mention kicking already?

5. High kicks are relatively easy to deal with; itís the low kicks that you have to worry about a little. Kick the kick...

6. If someone resists and tries to escape while Iím applying a joint lock or other technique, great, conflict resolved! Push or kick them away... Thatís a great time for me to escape or find that improvised weapon, etc.

7. Never go to the ground unless you like getting kicked in the head or piled on by the opponentís friends or other uke. If it goes to the ground, get up as quickly as possible.

8. If you find yourself facing three or more opponents, theyíll likely get you sooner or later. Your mistake was not avoiding that situation.

These are just some things off the top of my head. As I said, I really think weíre talking about two different mindsets here. That is, training for competition and training for reality based encounters. If everyone wants to go on talking about Aikido/Jujutsu compared to MMA or BJJ and/or a cage match between the two, I just donít have anything else to say. I donít train that way.

Cheers!
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

Top
#411944 - 12/03/08 02:50 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

I think we have two completely different mindsets here. Iím not interested in, or training for a competitive encounter. Iím interested in resolving (as quickly as possible) a spontaneous violent encounter in the real world [...]




Not sure who you are speaking to here? I think most who have posted on this thread are interested in the same thing.

Quote:

. Move! Itís hard to catch or strike a moving target.

2. Nothing works 100% of the time and you must be willing to flow from technique to technique. People donít react the way you think they will in spontaneous situations, so you must be willing to go with the flow.





Well said. I'm in complete agreement with both these points.

Quote:

3. Who ever said there are no kicks, punches or blocks in Aikido/Aikijujutsu? This covers a lot of situations where joint locks/throws go wrong. The question is, how good is one at executing them and are your training partners giving you good attacks? One Aikido teacher (Mitsugi Saotome) used to bring a high ranked Shotokan teacher into his dojo to teach his Aikido students just these skills. Aikido/Aikijujutsu isnít perfect. Iím now training in Goju-ryu myself, but I digress...




This statment is a bit confusing, however. Although there is atemi in some Aikido (not all, though) I think it's interesting that so many, like Saotome and yourself, need to look outside Aikido to incorporate more striking. Not that that is bad thing, nor do I think it is in anyway a 'polution' of 'real' Aikido (whatever that means). Just that I see some contradiction here. Yes, some Aikidoka train at dojo that practice atemi, but even those who practice an Aikido where 'original' atemi is present (for example, Yoshinkan), usually folks have to look outside the art for more depth. So although some Aikido does have atemi, I think it is wanting in some way (based on what I said above).

You're and Saotome need to look to another system to increase your striking ablility (at least that's what I took from your point) mirrors my own experiance in randori.

Quote:

4. Someone wants to box with me, great, I adjust the maai/deflect accordingly until they decide to throw me a committed attack. Did I mention kicking already?




Fair enough. But, let's be honest here, again, the vast majority of Aikido dojo do not practice kicking.

Quote:

5. High kicks are relatively easy to deal with; itís the low kicks that you have to worry about a little. Kick the kick...





For me, it depends on the kicker (I know you said 'relatively'). I used to think that highkicks weren't that dangerous, then I got kicked in the head by muay thai guy--thankfully I was wearing headgear.

Quote:

6. If someone resists and tries to escape while Iím applying a joint lock or other technique, great, conflict resolved! Push or kick them away... Thatís a great time for me to escape or find that improvised weapon, etc.





It depends on how they 'resist' though, doesn't it? If they just 'seize' up, then yeah, I think those are good options. But if they on any level understand movement-as-resistence, then a counter technique from them will also be forthcoming. We practiced this in AJJ. Someone applies a lock, you move and counter, sometimes with atemi, sometimes with a reversal throw/lock.

The other potential problem I see with this strategy is the presupposition that 'getting away' will be an option. If you are alone, this is a good one. But what if your wife or kid or etc. is there? Kimeda Sensei, 8th dan Yoshinkan, put this nicely. "It's good to get away, but sometimes you can't. What if he grabs your girlfriend? Do you run then? This is Budo. Sometimes you must stay."

Quote:

7. Never go to the ground unless you like getting kicked in the head or piled on by the opponentís friends or other uke. If it goes to the ground, get up as quickly as possible.





Agreed. In a civalian s.d. situation, usually you're going to want to stay on your feet. But the problem is, in order to get up, you need to learn a little bit about ground work, so that you know you can.

Quote:

8. If you find yourself facing three or more opponents, theyíll likely get you sooner or later. Your mistake was not avoiding that situation.





Very true.

Quote:

As I said, I really think weíre talking about two different mindsets here. That is, training for competition and training for reality based encounters. If everyone wants to go on talking about Aikido/Jujutsu compared to MMA or BJJ and/or a cage match between the two, I just donít have anything else to say.




This throws me a bit, A.J., because I don't think anyone has suggested 'who would win a cage match between the two'.

You also seem to be making a flawed suppositions that MMA/BJJ guys are all training FOR competition. I'll let MattJ, or someone else who knows more about this than I chime in here, but suffice it say, BJJ was not only invented for competetion. It was tested in real fights on the street of Rio. Competition is a fun thing to do for some, but that doesn't mean that many BJJer's aren't training for 'reality' either.

MMA is a training methodolgy, not a system. That methodolgy, admitedly, is mostly used for sports, but there are some (Straght Blast Gym/ Crazy Monkey Boxing are two orgs. that come to mind) that use the MMA method for training people to deal with street/life and death situations.

Saotome seemed to think that there was something to be taken from a 'sport' martial art, he adapted his striking methods, as you say, from Shotokan.

The next thing, and most importantly (because I've never heard a good answer yet): what in particular is it in Aikido that makes it more geared toward 'reality' than BJJ or MMA? This is esseintial, because you, and others, are polarising the two, but not really defining what the actual difference is.

I have no interest in turning this into an MMA/BJJ vs. Aikido thread either. But the thing is, that when the topic of resistence is brought up, many folks say "We don't do that, because this isn't sport." They say this without actually defining what it is that makes a 'sporting' m.a. weak in self defence. Usually these arguments hang around

1. Techniques are too deadly
2. Sports have rules

I think both of these arguments are intrinsically flawed. And I'm personally interested (really, not rhetorically) to know why Aikidoka (outside of Tomiki) think something like sparring violates some rule or principle of Aikido, or how it would translate into lesser s.d. skill?

--Chris



Edited by Ames (12/03/08 02:58 PM)

Top
Page 4 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga