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#411925 - 11/26/08 06:32 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
JAMJTX,

My question would be why would randori be "too dangerous" in aikido and not in other martial arts? Is aikido uniquely deadly? Are aikido students and teachers uniquely inept? I doubt it.

Most likely, the high injury rate refelcts a lack of experience in participating and/or monitoring proper randori training. I expect if more aikido schools used resistence in trainging they would quickly learn to do it well and the injury rate would drop.

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#411926 - 11/26/08 07:11 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
FILEBOY

I doubt you will ever really grasp this idea, whether it be your own unique ineptitude or just resistance to trying to understand things. But I will try to explain some things to you.

Joints are incredibly weak and become injured very easily. In most cases people can not take ukemi fast enough to avoid the injury. It just happens too fast and most Aikidoka will not develop that level of reflex.

Generally, Aikido does not just seek to apply a basic joint lock. There are other things going on, especially breaking the balance. So uke is falling as well as having a lock placed on a week/tender joint. It makes it much more difficult to resist a technique when you are falling down and your subconcious mind would rather see your wrist get broken than your neck. In Aikido, we are not just attacking a persons mind, it is a 3 prong attack on his mind, body and spirit. It is very difficult to defend against this.
Again, I ask: If Aikido techniques are so ineffctive, why then are they illegal in all these MMA tournaments being promoted by people who think like you do?

I will also tell you that several of my students are prison guards. They deal with the lowest, nastiest people on the planet. People who fight every day and kill people. These guards fight every day. One student was told by a prisoner: "It's not personal. But I just want you to know I'm going to kill you someday". These are not people who take thier training lightly. And they train with me, not the sport/BJJ/MMA schools. These are people who know much more about REAL fighting and staying alive than you ever will.
I suspect that if you ever did show up at a Yoshinkan school and challenged the teacher, and he took you up on it, you would start crying just like the guy who fled my class and 2 years later starts stuttering when he sees me.

Our Aikido has been around a long time and has been proven in police departments around the world. And don't try to tell me that criminals don't offer resistance.

I wish I could teacj you all that you need to know about Aikido so you can understand it. But it mut be felt to be understood. I suggest that, if you are serious about wanting to understand Aikido, you find a good teacher and tick with him long enough to learn some basics so that you can safely practice.

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#411927 - 11/26/08 10:33 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Aronious Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 4
In my dojo we do practice randori as if it were a real fight. However, the idea is that one should be able to feel when they may hurt uke, and uke should be able to tapout.

Quote:

What works in an MMA match will almost certainly work in a life-or-death fight.




Except that in a real fight, somebody's going to punch you in the back of the head, poke you in the eyes, and kick you in the groin. You can't really expect to defend yourself in a literal life-or-death situation if you're dancing around rules to keep things safe, because in a real fight, things aren't safe and there are no rules.

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#411928 - 11/26/08 11:04 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Aronious]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jim -

Quote:

These are not people who take thier training lightly. And they train with me, not the sport/BJJ/MMA schools. These are people who know much more about REAL fighting and staying alive than you ever will.




*sound of buzzer*

I bet I know more prison guards training at my BJJ school than you do at your Aikido school. One of them is even a member here. The rules thing is not a valid argument, since YOUR training is occuring under just as many rules - unless you ARE breaking your student' bones or killing them. If you guys think we don't get poked in the eye or hit in the groin in BJJ, you really ought to try a few classes for yourself.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#411929 - 11/27/08 08:48 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Happy Thanksgiving everyone,

I started out writing a detailed post that addressed several issues brought up by Ames and others, but you know what, it just isnít necessary.

If your training desires involve testing your skills against other trained martial artists in a competitive environment with rules that govern the competition, do arts like MMA that have either been born from such venues or evolved to compete in them. Aikido or traditional Japanese Jujutsu will not help you much.

For 99% of everyone else out there (excluding military and LEO), when was the last time you were actually in a violent encounter? Who was it with? For most, it was likely long ago and probably with a friend, acquaintance or family member. If not, and youíre getting into fights regularly, you need much more help than any martial art will ever offer you. Just like the 50 year old man I turned away from my dojo recently who wanted help winning his frequent bar fights... Ummm, OK.

In the vast majority of self-defense situations the average person is going to face, skills such as awareness of your environment, avoidance, safety in numbers, etc, will serve you far better than any waza--really; back down some of those testosterone levels folks--For those rare encounters mentioned above, although you might feel like doing it at the time, they do not require devastating techniques. Do you really want to snap your friendís neck, or break their arm in a manner that will cripple them for life? Do you like going to prison? Even LEO have to justify their actions and cannot cripple or main every suspect. When these actions are within the law, during a life threatening encounter, the suspect will most likely be shot. Simple as that. However, I digress...

For 99% of the visitors to this forum, arts such as Aikido were founded or have evolved to suit their needs in modern society and they work quite well. They offer a range of responses from simple escape and evasion to life taking techniques. However, like anything else in life, skill and the ability to execute techniques effectively takes dedicated training in terms of years, even decades.

MMA, BJJ, etc are great arts in their own right, but let's not compare apples to oranges here. Don't value the worth of one based upon the narrow parameters of another. Every art has its strengths and weaknesses. Let's just keep everything in perspective.

Cheers!
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411930 - 11/27/08 09:40 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Aronious Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 4
Quote:

If you guys think we don't get poked in the eye or hit in the groin in BJJ, you really ought to try a few classes for yourself.




You're misunderstanding me. I'm not referring to BJJ specifically, I'm referring to the MMA ring.

Quote:

The rules thing is not a valid argument, since YOUR training is occuring under just as many rules - unless you ARE breaking your student' bones or killing them.




Safety isn't a rule, it's a demonstration of experience. An inexperienced student will not be able to control a situation effectively enough so as to not injure anyone. You should be aware of what can injure or mortally wound an opponent, but you should also aspire to be skilled enough that you don't have to.

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#411931 - 11/27/08 10:47 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

MMA, BJJ, etc are great arts in their own right, but let's not compare apples to oranges here. Don't value the worth of one based upon the narrow parameters of another. Every art has its strengths and weaknesses. Let's just keep everything in perspective.




AJ, although I apprieciate this well thought out post, and agree with the need to keep everything in perspective, with all due respect, the purpose of this thread is to discuss resistence in Aikido, and why it is not present, and from that what is gained and what is lost by its absence.

Although your point about it being unlikely that the average person will ever be in a violent encounter is valid, it seems obvious that the majority of Aikidoka out there believe that what they are doing is combatively sound (evidenced by Jim's post); hence the need to discuss this topic.

Jim : Please don't call other members "inept", it constitutes a personal attack and is against forum rules. Fileboy has not said anything which warrants such rancour.

Interesting thread, but let's keep in civil.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/27/08 10:48 AM)

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#411932 - 11/27/08 10:55 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Aronious]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Matt
BJJ is foolish for prison guards. Rolling around on the floor in a crowded jail cell s a pretty bad idea. The other 5 guys in there will just stomp on you.

I'm not talking about merely getting poked in the eye or hit in the groin b accident. I'm talking about things like kubi nage where your neck will accidentally get broken. I think there's a big difference there. The way we do irimi nage a neck can also get broken even by accident. I'm talking about doing nikajo by not just merely twisting the hand until he says ouch and taps, our nikajo is done like sword cut swift and sharp, cutting until his face hits the ground. There's no time to tap out at the speed. The wrist will be destroyed before he hits the ground. So it must be done slower and controlled. This is what happened to the idiot that came and challenged me on it. In that case, I wanted to hurt that jacka** just to teach him a lesson. I didn't want him as a student anyway.

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#411933 - 11/27/08 03:03 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
JAMJTX,

Lots of dangerous techniques are not allowed in MMA, from certain types of joint locks to rabbit punches. It is not the case that aikido techniques are uniquely singled out for exclusion. What would impress me is if an aikiod practioner would enter an MMA competition and do well. But I won't hold my breath.

As for aikido techniques being used by prison guards: I am sure some are. I am equally sure they use techniques from other arts as well. However, I'd bet dollars to donuts they practice them under more realistic conditions than those that prevail in most aikido dojos.

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#411934 - 11/27/08 05:21 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: JAMJTX]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

They also learn that by properly locking the skeleton, uke can not resist even when he wants to.
Simply put, there is no resistance in Aikido




I think you might be misunderstanding what is meant by 'resistence'. It doesn't just mean standing there and locking down the muscles. It means that uke actively seeks to escape the technique.

Quote:

I can also relate stories about Gracie Jujutsu experts whining about Aikido techniques being against the rules, AFTER they tapped out.




I'd like to hear them, because the majority of Aikido techniques, especially those practiced with the most frequency are allowed in most BJJ competitions.

Quote:

There's also the MMA wannabe that was manhandled by a 65 year old female Aikido teacher and left because he didn't want to learn that "crap" he wanted to "fight".




There are many 'wannabe's'. This person does not, and should not stand for MMA practioners as a whole.

Quote:

It's hard, it hurts at times and you get tired. But people who have no knowlegde or understanding of Aikido, that is people who have never truly experienced it, should not be commenting on it's training methods or "lack of effectiveness".





You say this, but you are willing to comment on BJJ, having never trained it for any apprciable amount of time. I asked the question, and I specifically asked non-Aikidoka to also comment, because I think the more voices from more martial backgrounds, the better. One can indeed comment on an art without having trained it for years.

I would also like to know if you are including me in this?

Quote:

Joints are incredibly weak and become injured very easily. In most cases people can not take ukemi fast enough to avoid the injury. It just happens too fast and most Aikidoka will not develop that level of reflex.





I have been told this myself, but I have to question whether or not it is valid. Certainly the Tomiki guys seem to be able to "take ukemi fast enough".

Quote:

Again, I ask: If Aikido techniques are so ineffctive, why then are they illegal in all these MMA tournaments being promoted by people who think like you do?





The vast majority of Aikido techniques are allowed in MMA comp.

Quote:

Our Aikido has been around a long time and has been proven in police departments around the world. And don't try to tell me that criminals don't offer resistance.





An LEO has recourse to numerous weapons, and generally backup, and therefore has a very different basis from which to use his training than the average person.

Quote:

BJJ is foolish for prison guards. Rolling around on the floor in a crowded jail cell s a pretty bad idea. The other 5 guys in there will just stomp on you




I want to give Matt a chance to respond, as this was directed at him. But I would like to say that often you don't choose the ground, the ground chooses you.

Also, the average BJJer, despite what many seem to think, is capable of using his brain. Why would he choose to go the ground in this scenerio anyway?

Quote:

The way we do irimi nage a neck can also get broken even by accident. I'm talking about doing nikajo by not just merely twisting the hand until he says ouch and taps, our nikajo is done like sword cut swift and sharp, cutting until his face hits the ground. There's no time to tap out at the speed. The wrist will be destroyed before he hits the ground. So it must be done slower and controlled.




But the thing is, when you perform nikajo in the dojo, you aren't breaking anyone's wrist (for obvious reasons). The technique has already been altered in order to make its practice safer. The very fact that the student isn't having their wrist broken and then face planting shows this. You say, "there is no time to tap out," yet during practice the student will tap many times.

In other words, the techniques have already been altered to make their practice safer. Thus there is a large amount of both implicit and explicit rules in Aikido practice.

Further, having had Nikajo applied to me many times during grappling, and having applied it myself, I can attest to the fact that it can be done controlled enough during a 'live' exchange so that the liklehood of injury is decreased.

Also, take the Americana of BJJ. This is a lock that could easily rip apart the shoulder if it was applied with that intent. Instead, it is applied only to that point (at least in training) so that the reciever knows they are locked and should tap. The Americana is a 'break', but is only practiced as a lock. Much like the way you practice nikajo.

Quote:

This is what happened to the idiot that came and challenged me on it. In that case, I wanted to hurt that jacka** just to teach him a lesson. I didn't want him as a student anyway.





I don't know the whole story of this incident, but I do hope this was (at least) done during a free exchange and this wasn't a 'grab my wrist and I'll show you real Aikido' type of thing. I've seen this a lot in Aikido, and I have to say I think it is really a major breach of trust. No matter how badly behaved, rude, arrogant, a student is, if they are compliantly taking your wrist, then you owe it to them, and should have enough skill, not to injure them.

I've had things like this done to me several times because I was 'asking too many questions' or 'wasn't going with the technique'. This is one of the reasons I find it very funny when BJJ guys are referred to as jacked up, testorone filled, egotisical idiots. I've yet to experiance anyone 'proving' anything to me in BJJ, and if someone did at least you would have the chance in BJJ to defend yourself freely.

Once at a seminar, a highish dan didn't like the way I moved, so he switched mid-technique, and violently twisted my neck so that it made a loud pop. I was told that 'he had to do it because I wasn't going with the technique, and know I would.' This wasn't the first time he had tried to hurt me during the ten minutes we were together. I got up and instead of throwing a slow punch, I punched like a boxer and hit him in the nose, maybe breaking it (I never found out). I wanted to show him what it felt like to violate the implicit trust, as he had. I sure did wipe that grin off his face. Suffice it say, I was asked to leave the seminar. Which was fine by me. To this day, I still have problems with my neck because of this. I wish I could say this was an isolated incident, but it was not. To be honest, it was incidents like this that have made me turn away from co-operative practive altogether. They make the ego grow too big as it is never checked by someone younger, with less time in the art, tapping you out.

So Jim, if you did this to a student, I truly hope you let him know beforehand that you were amping up the practice, and that you gave him every oppurtunity to defend himself.


Edited by Ames (11/27/08 05:49 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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