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#411915 - 11/25/08 05:08 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Quote:

Every time I hear questions like, "well, what do you mean by 'fighting?'", I feel blood vessels in my brain about to burst.




Well, see you should have explained yourself a bit better because evidently you didn’t mean MMA having anything to do with “real” fighting either…

Quote:

No, MMA fights are not street fights.




I couldn’t have said it better myself. We agree then: MMA, UFC, etc. isn’t “real” fighting. Glad we didn’t waste three or four pages here.

Hey, if you like it and it suits your tastes to practice MMA or the like because it’s more “real” to you, then good on ya! Everything has merit, but nothing is without its inherent weaknesses and drawbacks.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411916 - 11/25/08 08:02 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
A.J. Bryant,

Kindly don't quote me out of context in order to twist my meaning. I said while MMA fights were not street fights, they were the closest thing to it, at least within the bounds of saftey and sanity.

MMA is not just "more real" to me than traditional martial arts, it is "more real," period. And I disagree with you: not everything has merit. We sometimes pretend everything does to avoid conflict; however, we know it just ain't so.

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#411917 - 11/26/08 01:16 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Before this turns into another flame war, this is a thread about resistence in Aikido. Although MMA might be an example of resistent training, I really don't want this to turn into an 'MMA vs. TMA' debate. Using MMA as example or an analogy is fine, but try to stay on the subject of Aikido, please.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411918 - 11/26/08 07:40 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
"fileboy2002"

Sigh... You have come on this thread and made rather bold and arrogant statements about "fighting" and then condemn Aikido for lacking in this regard. I asked you to clarify what you meant by “fighting” and get you to admit that you’re evidently not referring to “real” fighting at all, but competitive “fighting” with rules like any other sport. Sports are not fighting, period. Therefore, please refrain from talking about what works and what doesn’t in actual violent, real-life empty-hand conflict if that’s not what you’re talking about.

Now, do you have anything valuable to contribute that’s actually on topic?
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411919 - 11/26/08 08:05 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
Trying to get this thread back on topic then... From what (little) I understand about Aikido, the art is founded in compliant learning. I can understand the importance of that, sure; you don't just leap in and start thrashing each other. Being an uke is the best way to learn, certainly for breakfalling.

But the important element that randori introduces is how your body reacts under stress. Adrenaline has a huge impact in fighting and randori helps address anticipation, nerves and of course honing your technique under less dojo based circumstances.

So whilst not knocking any art / style that has no randori, I have learnt that alive training (be that MMA, boxing, non sports such as door work etc) can only help to improve any MA skills, IMHO.

(But I do have to add I struggle with the 'oh, in real life I'd be able to do my move because I'd eye gouge him first etc etc'. I recently asked Royce Gracie about training under rules vs street fighting and he said,'You think I don't know how to eye gouge or kick someone in the groin?' And I'm not going to argue with him.

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#411920 - 11/26/08 12:30 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

I asked you to clarify what you meant by “fighting” and get you to admit that you’re evidently not referring to “real” fighting at all, but competitive “fighting” with rules like any other sport.




Actually, I think you would be hard pressed to find a better way to simulate actual combat. It might not be 'real' but it mimics reality better than most. All arts are also engaged in a simulation of reality. One difference that I see it that Aikido, and arts like it, were

Quote:

developed in a vacuum in feudal Japan to defend against common attacks of the day--mainly weapons based attacks and combat in armor.




so the simulated reality is, seemingly, an obsolete one.

Certainly there is a spectrum between 'more' like reality and 'less'. Aikido seems to lean towards the 'less' side of the spectrum, according to your own observation.

Quote:

Real fights have no rules.




This is true. But Aikido practice has far more 'rules', both explicit and implicit, than MMA.

Quote:

Further, it’s also naive to believe the techniques you learn in traditional Japanese martial arts are designed to be the “actual” techniques you would use in combat. Traditional Japanese martial arts--by and large--are principle based.




This is interesting and something I have heard often. The problem with this is you are saying that TJMA arts are 'priciple based' systems, yet, as quoted above, you are also suggesting that at one time these techniques were indeed meant to approximate reality.

Quote:

they’re simply the best waza to transmit the specific principle(s)...




Are they? That's a good question, and I think the jury is still out on that. Does TJMA do anything, specifically. that other arts with a differing training methodology don't do?

Quote:

Another concept common in traditional Japanese martial arts, especially koryu arts such as Daito-ryu or other jujutsu ryuha (weapon schools as well) is not to teach the “real” techniques until after many years. One may ask why this is, because it sounds selfish or silly in this modern age. The truth is, when these arts were founded, teachers did not want the real techniques--the essence of their school--to leak out or be stolen by unscrupulous individuals.




So the early techniques contain the principles of the system, but you can only unlock those principles after decades in the art? As this is a thread regarding Aikido, at what point in training are these 'real' techniques seen? I see no evidence that such a stage was ever built into the system.

Further, we only encounter this kind of methodology in the more 'modern' Koryu. Certainly a lord wouldn't want to spend 20 years training a samural to do his job.

I actually don't really think this (a long time before making the art functional) is a 'tradional' training method at all. I think it is, at best, a couple of hundred years old.

Quote:

More important, Aikido, aikijujutsu, jujutsu, and other traditional Japanese martial arts are about a heck of a lot more than just learning how to “fight”




I agree with you here. But so are non-traditional arts.

Quote:

Spend a few decades on the mat actually listening to your teacher and when you’ve been around for a while, ask them some questions.




In all due respect, I can't understand this. Go back to my point on the training time for a samurai during actual times of war in Japan.

Futher, the Shindo Yoshin Ryu (the site you have linked to) teach their 'self defence' waza first (for the first four years) before the more esoteric stuff is taught.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411921 - 11/26/08 12:58 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
AJ -

Quote:

I asked you to clarify what you meant by “fighting” and get you to admit that you’re evidently not referring to “real” fighting at all, but competitive “fighting” with rules like any other sport.




As Ames noted, non-sport practice has as many or more rules than some 'sport' practices do, making that argument tenuous at best.

Quote:

Sports are not fighting, period. Therefore, please refrain from talking about what works and what doesn’t in actual violent, real-life empty-hand conflict if that’s not what you’re talking about.




True that sports are not fighting - but neither is any other practice. The question is, "how close do the respective practices get?"

A case can be made for 'sport' practice on the resistance element alone.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#411922 - 11/26/08 04:12 PM general reply - relating a story from class [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I saw this thread a while ago and resisted the urge to reply for a long time. I didn't want to get into it because it's just a never-ending go-around with people who not only do not understand Aikido, but who just simply do not want to understand and knock it any way.

My Aikido (Yoshinkan) students learn to not resist in class because they do not want thier joints and limbs broken. They learn pretty quickly that resistance will not necessarily counter a technique but rather lead to something more painful or injurious than the technique that they resisted. They learn to take ukemi, release the pressure on the joint and roll out of it. We also work on counters. They also learn that by properly locking the skeleton, uke can not resist even when he wants to.
Simply put, there is no resistance in Aikido.

Now the story from class, which is not the first time this happened and will not be the last.

A friend of a student came to take a class with us as he was thinking of joining. We were doing nikajo. He told me that because of his BJJ/MM training that would never work because all he had to do was punch me in the face with his other hand. So I told him to attack and then punch me in the face with the other hand.
As he went crashing to his knees, screaming like a baby, his 2nd punch that was supposed to hit me in the face stopped quite short. All he had for me afterward was a bunch of filthy words and called me a f***ng maniac and left.
What changed my mind about posting in this thread was running into the "Aikido will never work on me" master of MMA, was that I ran into him again, nearly 2 years later.

He's still a friend of my now former student and I saw this MMA guy at my former students garage. When I got there I thought he looked familiar but I couldn't place who he was. He was all loud and chatty just as he usually is. Then my ex-student points to me and says "Do you remember this guy?". His demeanor totally changed. He started stutetring and yammering. He would not look at me, he just mumbled something as he hung his head down. Then he suddenly remembered something he had to do and said he had to go. 2 years later and this MMA master, who Aikido will NEVER work on is still ready to wet his pants over a most basic technique.

I can also relate stories about Gracie Jujutsu experts whining about Aikido techniques being against the rules, AFTER they tapped out.

There's also the MMA wannabe that was manhandled by a 65 year old female Aikido teacher and left because he didn't want to learn that "crap" he wanted to "fight".

The stories are endless.

If someone is just not interested in Aikido then that is fine. It's not for everyone. It's hard, it hurts at times and you get tired. But people who have no knowlegde or understanding of Aikido, that is people who have never truly experienced it, should not be commenting on it's training methods or "lack of effectiveness".

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#411923 - 11/26/08 04:16 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
A.J. Bryant,

What I said was very much on topic. This thread posed an important question: is resistance an essential component of randori? That anyone would doubt it was surprised me. Sorry if that upsets you.

And again, please stop twisting my words! The fact that resistance training in MMA, judo, boxing, or other arts is not "real" fighting does not make it irrelevant to "real" fighting. On the contrary: you are unlikely to prevail in a "real" fight without such training!

In short, my answer to your question is yes, aikiod randori would benefit from resistence.

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#411924 - 11/26/08 04:48 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Quote:

In short, my answer to your question is yes, aikiod randori would benefit from resistence.




Some may realize a benefit in changing the training method. But my experience has been that training this way sends too many uke to the emergency room and the dropout rate gets too high.

It's better to strike a balance amd err a little on the side of safety than it is to break all of your students bones just to prove a point. I do know a teacher that used to do just that. All of his uchi deshi got thier arm broken, except 1 - he broke his nose and sternum instead.
I was going to go and visit that teacher after I moved since he's only a few hours away. I was advised by teacher to not go there because he's crazy and would hurt me.

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