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#411905 - 11/17/08 05:01 PM Resistence/Randori in Aikido
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Let's try again.

This is a question I've been thinking of for awhile, especially in light of recent threads in this forum:

Aikido (aside from the Tomiki style) doesn't really have any resistent sparring/ randori. Do you think Aikido would benifit from the introduction of this facet of training, or would it suffer? If you think it would suffer, what in particular do you think would be affected?

How many think Aikido might benifit from the introduction of this kind of training?


Interested to hear responses, both from Aikidoka, and those outside the art.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411906 - 11/19/08 04:21 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
That anyone can ask such a question is mind boggling. It is like asking, "if I want to learn to play the piano, will it help to practice playing the piano?" If you want to learn to fight, whatever style you learn, practicing fighting is pretty helpful.

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#411907 - 11/23/08 04:49 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Mind boggling? Perhaps. But the fact is that the majority of Aikidoka spend their entire martial lives never trying their techniques against resistence.

I guess I'm just interested in why that is? What is the perceived fault of such practice? What effect would it have on what we know as Aikido? Why has such practice not been instituted, except for Tomiki style.

I'd also like to hear from any Tomiki stylists, who might be able to tell us how their randori fits into the overall practice of Aikido.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411908 - 11/23/08 05:14 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Ames, et al,

This is an age-old question that is brought up time and time again.

Coming from a Hakko-ryu perspective (Dentokan) and having the opportunity to be teaching my share of students lately who regularly ‘test’ me, I would say any form of resistance training/randori with inexperienced participants will quickly lead to crippling injuries without significantly watering down the techniques. The techniques were meant to cause such injuries by tearing up/dislocating joints, breaking bones, or smashing an attacker’s body to the ground in awkward positions to maim or kill them.

Aikido has a large number of kokyu-nage waza that are used in randori/jiyugeiko. These limit the injuries and still give students a sense of free practice in a controlled environment. Judo on the other hand has eliminated most of the dangerous waza for randori. I believe Tomiki or Shodokan Aikido has also eliminated many of the most dangerous waza for similar reasons.

An interesting question might be to ask why Daito-ryu has no formal randori in its curriculum?
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411909 - 11/24/08 12:52 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: Ames]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
The "perceived fault" is that without practicing fighting, you will never, ever learn to fight. On the other hand, if you convince yourself somehow that that not practicing fighting is not a problem, and if you are lucky enough never to have to test this idea the hard way, you can be go through your whole aikido career clueless and happy.

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#411910 - 11/24/08 02:11 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Fileboy2002,

Fighting who? A mixed martial artist, Judoka, boxer, etc, or the average person on the street? Who are you refering to?
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411911 - 11/25/08 07:34 AM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
An interesting thread as before but one I fear will soon / already has slipped into an MMA vs TMA argument. The bitterest pill I had to swallow was when I took my JJJ training into a resistant, skilled arena and realised that only some of my techniques would work. Against an unskilled drunk was one thing, against a knowledgeable adrenaline fulled fighter on the mat was another.

My idea of resistance would be to put on some grappling gloves, a groin guard and gumshield and go 'duke it out'. See what works. I do not even attempt standing locks, 'block and throw' etc. I just couldn;t get a lot of my traditional training to work. I have to go for a takedown or clinch, then I'm OK. An experienced aikido guy might do otherwise but I really would like to see him try.

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#411912 - 11/25/08 12:14 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I am referring to a practioner of any art who has actually practiced fighting. That could be a boxer, wrestler, judoka, Muay Thai fighter, etc, etc. It could even be--in theory--an aikido practioner who has actually practiced fighting. I've never met one, but I am sure they exist. Somewhere. Maybe.

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#411913 - 11/25/08 03:15 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
First let me say that we all know MMA is the latest and greatest. All one has to do to browse the various forums here and elsewhere to see that. IMHO, practice what interests you and train in as much as you can--it’s all good.

Now, this thread is specifically about Aikido randori and resistance training, and several points were raised about real “fighting”. I asked who was “fighting” who. An Aikidoka against a BJJ exponent? Or MMA competitor, Judoka, average Joe, etc?

In reality, it doesn’t particularly matter. Aikido and related arts (i.e. traditional Japanese jujutsu) were simply not created to defend against modern MMA, grappling, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc., etc. It developed in a vacuum in feudal Japan to defend against common attacks of the day--mainly weapons based attacks and combat in armor. It’s a bit naive to compare arts such as these, especially while instituting MMA type rules and training techniques.

Secondly, how do you define “fighting”? What I read over and over again in these forums lately is MMA based “fighting”. I here things such as “I couldn’t get my Aikido/Jujutsu techniques to work in the clinch”, etc. MMA based competition is not combat reality. You enter the ring with an opponent who expects everything you might do, has trained for it, and “fights” with a set of rules in mind to win a refereed competition. Real fighting is also not throwing on gloves with your buddy and “trying things out” in your backyard.

Real fights have no rules. In real fights, people utilize concealed or improvised weapons, bite, poke out eyes, break noses, crush larynxes, kick groins, etc. These things are not allowed in MMA competitions or while you “fight” with your buddies. Next time you’re sparing with your buddies, try common Aikido kansetsu waza on them after breaking their nose first or kicking them in the groin as hard as you can. I guarantee that nikyo or kotegaeshi will work better for you...

Further, it’s also naive to believe the techniques you learn in traditional Japanese martial arts are designed to be the “actual” techniques you would use in combat. Traditional Japanese martial arts--by and large--are principle based. That means the techniques you learn teach principles to be used in numerous ways. Most of the time, the techniques utilized to transmit these principles are not necessarily the most realistic techniques; they’re simply the best waza to transmit the specific principle(s)... So, no wonder someone with only a few years under their belt can’t make their “techniques” work.

Another concept common in traditional Japanese martial arts, especially koryu arts such as Daito-ryu or other jujutsu ryuha (weapon schools as well) is not to teach the “real” techniques until after many years. One may ask why this is, because it sounds selfish or silly in this modern age. The truth is, when these arts were founded, teachers did not want the real techniques--the essence of their school--to leak out or be stolen by unscrupulous individuals. Why would you teach the most efficient or effective techniques to someone who might leave your school in a few years and face the potential of having to square off with them someday? This is precisely the reason special operation units won’t allow much of their tactical training to be filmed. Surprise is a good thing...

More important, Aikido, aikijujutsu, jujutsu, and other traditional Japanese martial arts are about a heck of a lot more than just learning how to “fight”. For a similar perspective, here is an excellent essay by Toby Threadgill:

http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_Assumptions.htm

Finally, let me reiterate that “it’s all good”. I’m not saying Aikido or any other art is “better” than another. I say do it all and train hard; just keep things in perspective and don’t be so close-minded. Spend a few decades on the mat actually listening to your teacher and when you’ve been around for a while, ask them some questions. You might be surprised what they show you or tell you. To simply assume things based on a shallow understanding of an art is a big mistake (again, see the article above).
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#411914 - 11/25/08 03:49 PM Re: Resistence/Randori in Aikido [Re: A.J. Bryant]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Every time I hear questions like, "well, what do you mean by 'fighting?'", I feel blood vessels in my brain about to burst. Are people serious? I think not! This sematic gymnasticas is just a way of avoiding an unpleasant truth: many martial arts styles are just plain useless when it comes to self defense.

No, MMA fights are not street fights. But let's get real here: they are as close to "real" as safety and sanity permit. What works in an MMA match will almost certainly work in a life-or-death fight.

MMA, UFC, etc have done to traditional martial arts what Copernicus, Kepkler, and Gallileo did to the bogus, dogmatic cosmology of the Catholic Church--i.e. blown them out of the water. Reactions to this have been mixed. Some martial artists--I hope most--have decided to revamp old ideas and traning methods in light of this reality check. Others have turned inward, like monks in a monestary, clinging ever more tighly to their sacred texts.

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