FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 26 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ronin1966 3
GojuRyuboy13 2
futsaowingchun 2
ergees 2
cxt 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
Yesterday at 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
Yesterday at 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
Yesterday at 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35584 Topics
432513 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 5 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5
Topic Options
#411785 - 11/26/08 03:51 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Show me one that has been attempted and failed. Oh, that's right, they are low percentage so they are not even attempted.




I don't have to show you where they have failed, because the current state of MMA is such that a variety of techniques have been attempted in a training environment and been found wanting for use against someone equally well trained. Again, the fact that they are in the BJJ currculum verifies that these techniques are trained, but have been found (by BJJ/MMA proponents) unsuitible for use against a well developed fighter. That is simply a fact that doesn't need to be physically shown. The majority weighs on my side. I can show you hundreds of fights where these techniques are not used, yet you can't show me one where they are!!! Don't try to turn the burden of evidence in my direction, because I have made very clear that

1. These techniques (meaning joint locks off a punch) are in fact trained by those you suggestted do not.
2. They have been experimented with.
3. They have never been shown in any kind of free sparring scenrio that has two fighters of equal ability. Not only in MMA, but in Sanda, Karate kumite, Sambo (who train these techniques to very high degree) matches.

All of these styles (from #3), do indeed train these techniques. Sambo spends longer than most systems on them, especially combat sambo. Yet, they go unused in competition, not only sambo comps. but my samboist who fight in MMA (where there is absolutely no rule against them). You're argument hangs around the fact that 'if MMA fighters actually trained the techniques, then they would work'; yet when I show that they do in fact train them, you seem to imply that they do not train them correctly. Sorry, that's nonsense. Samboist have some of the best ability at using standing joint locks off a punch that I have ever seen, yet they will tell you that they just don't work against a trained fighter.

Quote:

However, you say that the fighters are trained in these techniques (why would they bother?).




I've already stated why they "bother" to train these techniques, and am not going to repeat myself except to say that they work in situations where there is a great contrast in skill.

Quote:

Techniques and fighting styles fall in and out of popularity. In the 80's, everyone knew that ninja's could kick everyones butt. Then it was BJJ, until it was found that striking still had it's place. But for a while, the general consensus in many circles was that grappling was king and would easily always defeat the striker.





This is another thread all together. Grappling is still the great equilizer, because in order to defeat it, you need to train it. Even those fighters that are regarded as the best 'strikers' continue to train their ground game.

As to the ninja boom, I'm sick of hearing this used in an attempt to draw an analogy between it and MMA. Is it a fad? Maybe. Time will tell. But does that make the truths it has brought to the surface (the need of being skilled in all ranges, the simpler the better, the need of resistive training) any less relevent? Absolutely not.

Quote:

The consensus on what works and what doesn't is fluid. I guess it's safest in the main stream.




So, now you are willing to admit that my opinion is in the mainstream? This is precisely why the burden of evidence is on you to prove that I (and, apparently, the majority of folks out there) are wrong.

Honestly, rather than just engaging in rhetorical attempts to switch the burden of proof to me, and calling doubt on my personal abilities, as well as the hundreds of atheletes who have found these techniques to be wanting, how about you produce one shred of semi-objective evidence to support your claims?

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/26/08 03:58 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#411786 - 11/26/08 04:57 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I was trying to point out to you that popular consensus changes and is sometimes wrong.

Strikers didn't think they needed grappling. Then grapplers dominated and many didn't think they needed striking skills. Then striking skill proved their worth again.

Opinions on what works changes.

My opinion on the value of joint locks is based upon my experience applying them and having seen them applied. Sorry, no objective evidence to show you that they work. I could very well be wrong, it would not be the first or last time. You don't need to prove that they don't work, but if you could, that would sure be cool.

As far as calling doubt to your personal abilities: I have no clue what your abilities are other then what you posted. From what I understand, you practiced joint locking for 15 years, then realized they don't work. I suggested that maybe it was your training method. The same training method that you are critical of in the Aikido forum. Sorry if I offended you.

Top
#411787 - 11/27/08 10:30 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

As far as calling doubt to your personal abilities: I have no clue what your abilities are other then what you posted. From what I understand, you practiced joint locking for 15 years, then realized they don't work. I suggested that maybe it was your training method. The same training method that you are critical of in the Aikido forum. Sorry if I offended you.




Don't worry about it, I'm not offended in the least. It's perfectly fair for you to question my training method. Just to be clear, I have trained joint locks using other methodologies besides Aikido. I have trained to use these techniques in a free sparring scenerio and had some success, but never have I been told my any of my sensei or instructors that they can be used to catch the punch of a good striker.
From my thinking, it is as difficult to 'catch a punch' thrown by a good striker, as it would be to disarm a good swordsman.

Quote:

My opinion on the value of joint locks is based upon my experience applying them and having seen them applied.




That's fine. But you also made it clear that you don't apply them off of strikes, due to what you consider the high potential for injury.

Quote:

Usually in standing grappling or ground grappling. Vs. a strike, it would be hard not to cause serious damage because you have to apply the lock with speed. But I do practice getting into position for the lock during sparring (just don't apply it, I release it and keep sparring).




As the point I'm making regards the seeming difficulty of applying them off a strike in a fully restistive setting, I don't really grasp how your prior training proves their value in this setting. You have said that you don't do this.

If you aren't performing joint locks from a strike in sparring, then how exactly have you arrived at your conclusion?

Quote:

You don't need to prove that they don't work, but if you could, that would sure be cool.





Funny. I've given quite a bit of evidence that is more objective than my own. You have not done so. Rather, you continue to reduce this back to your own (subjective) experiance. Yet, you've never actually done it, so what are you actually going on?

It's fine to state that you, personally, think joint locks from a strike work. The problem is when you claim that the reason why they don't work for others is because they don't 'train them hard enough'. If you're going to try and make your personal experiance speak for the many, expect to be asked to produce SOME evidence. So far, you have produced nothing.

One example (out of many) that I've given is Sambo. These techniques (so called 'punch catching joint locks') are trained to a very high level, yet a Samboist still doesn't try them against a skilled striker, because to do so would be suicide.

I have produced a large amount of evidence, so before you make a statement like the one above, you would do well to do the same. So far, all you have done is relate this back to your own personal experiance which, sorry to say, does not seemingly even contain the kind of use of these techniques I am disscussing. In other words, you're experiance means very little as a counterpoint to my argument, because you do not actually 'apply the lock' in sparring. So, your own experiance doesn't validate your claim, nor can you show another's ability to use these techniques ('catching a punch and joing locking') in a resistive sparring scenerio.

Which is why, again, I'm led to wonder what exactly you are basing your opinion on?

It seems to be purely hypothetical from where I'm sitting.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/27/08 10:30 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#411788 - 12/01/08 10:59 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I am uncomfortable with the term "catch" a strike. In mid to close range, the contact allows for directing a strike into joint locking. That is why the "sticky hands" drill works well for training this skill. (I am not sure we are talking about the same thing)

I do not know what Sambo does/doesn't do. I would think that it would be hard to make such generalizations though.

What is commonly done is not always the same as what can be done. What is commonly done isn't always the best either.

Top
#411789 - 12/02/08 03:55 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

I am uncomfortable with the term "catch" a strike. In mid to close range, the contact allows for directing a strike into joint locking.
Make sure to move so you are not in the path of the strike should you miss the grab. Try to make contact with their arm as close to their body as possible.




That's fine if you are now uncomfortable with that term, but you are the one who intially used it. What I intially was speaking to was when you said:

Quote:

Catching an incoming strike is not easy. It has to be a commited attack, not a jab. There are tricks to timing and reading your opponents telegraphs.





To which I basically agreed, but added that such a thing involves a great discrepency of skill between two fighters. And then you said it doesn't, because you use it regularly. If you want to refine/alter your terms now, that's cool, but from the post I quoted above, you did seem to be talking about long range strike 'catching'.

Quote:

That is why the "sticky hands" drill works well for training this skill. (I am not sure we are talking about the same thing)





Again, from the post I quoted from above, you seem to have been intially talking about longer range strike catching.

What you are talking about here is, again, the trapping/clinch range. I have made it clear that I am talking about the difficulty of catching a strike while still in the striking range (including moving in from that range to 'meet' the strike, which is naturally including in 'catching' it).

We may not now be talking about the same thing, but intially we were. You said:

Quote:

Moving in and greeting the attack with your arms to divert the attack more simulates the drill (as long as something from wrists to shoulders are crossed)and will make the joint locks usable. They do work.




Which I consider to be dealing with the strike while both of you are in the striking range: You are moving from that range to redirect and 'catch' the strike in the scenerio you give above. This is pretty much exactly what I am, and was, refering to as a very difficult thing to pull off (against a skilled striker).

Now if at this point you are altering your original response, tp talk about "mid to close range", that cool.I will, yet again, say I agree, that the chance of success of these techniques if far greater in the clinch/trapping range than in the striking.


--Chris


Edited by Ames (12/02/08 03:56 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#411790 - 12/02/08 04:43 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
The OP brought up "catching" a punch. I stated it was difficult but can be done vs. a committed attack.

Latter we were speaking of JL in general (at least I thought we were) and I feel they work well in a range where limbs cross. If out of that range, I suggested moving into that range by diverting the attack (not catching the punch)before attempting a JL.

Sorry if I was not clear.

Top
#411791 - 12/02/08 05:19 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
LOL, I guess we were basically talking about the same thing this whole time then. I was specifically talking about the difficulty in applying joint locks off the strike, not all joint locking techniques. We seem to agree then: they work best in the clinch/trap range. But, using them directly off a strike generaly necessitates there being less than competent striker.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#411792 - 12/16/08 12:50 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
Zlarin Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 5
Loc: NE
In my Daito-ryu class, whenever a technique is applied when an opponent strikes, we are told to first block or deflect the technique, then apply an atemi followed by the lock. There are only a few instances when any sort of strike is "caught" in our class.

Top
#411793 - 01/03/09 07:53 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Zlarin]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Yep, that's my experience with DR as well. Same for the good Aikido dojo's out there.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
Page 5 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki, Taison 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga