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#411745 - 11/14/08 05:27 PM Joint Locks
Rayson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Recently we did randori in my Jujitsu class. My sensei told me I attempt nage waza too much and should practice joint locks too. The thought of trying to catch someone's arm while they are trying to hurt me doesn't seem too practical to me. Do you think wrist/elbow locks are practical for self defense?

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#411746 - 11/14/08 06:36 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Rayson]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

Recently we did randori in my Jujitsu class. My sensei told me I attempt nage waza too much and should practice joint locks too. The thought of trying to catch someone's arm while they are trying to hurt me doesn't seem too practical to me. Do you think wrist/elbow locks are practical for self defense?




Grabbing someone's arm isn't so hard - the better you get at the clinch the better you are grabbing someone's arm.

Joint locks work better when performed on the ground: Position before submission.
_________________________
St. Louis MMA Boxing Grappling

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#411747 - 11/15/08 12:38 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Rayson]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Do you think wrist/elbow locks are practical for self defense?




It depends. I hate to try locks while standing, because I don't think you have enough control over your opponent's body to finish it. However, you can use joint locks to take your opponent to the ground where you can finish the lock or transition into a dominant position. An easy example is Waki-gatame, where you get the lock first then use it to drag your opponent to the ground. From there you can keep applying the lock, or take the back.

Standing locks do work sometimes, but in my opinion their rate of success is not high enough for you to consider them a go-to tactic. Better to throw your opponent or hit him, then worry about submissions when your in newaza.

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#411748 - 11/17/08 10:08 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Supremor]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Standing joint locks work great but you should remember that joint locks are only temporary. If you apply a joint lock while standing use it to cause pain and to break the balance of you opponent. Then transition into a sweep or throw.

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#411749 - 11/17/08 12:30 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: BulldogTKD]
everyone Offline
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Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Catching an incoming strike is not easy. It has to be a commited attack, not a jab. There are tricks to timing and reading your opponents telegraphs.

Make sure to move so you are not in the path of the strike should you miss the grab. Try to make contact with their arm as close to their body as possible. The closer it is to their core, the slower and smaller the movement (you probably will not be able to catch their wrist). Once you make contact, file the strike off course as you slide your hand into place for the joint lock.

Another method is to avoid the strike and follow your opponents arm as it retreats. This is a good method because you are not having to worry about a blow coming in when attempting the joint lock. Also, the opponents arm will be slowing to a stop as he retreats it. Be careful of his other arm however.

Do not worry too much about the effectiveness at this point in your training. You are learning body structure and gross movements. Those joint locks that seem impractical now will be more refined and several applications will be reveiled to you with practice and experience.

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#411750 - 11/17/08 03:24 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
In order for standing jointlocks to work against a punch, your opponent has to be of MUCH lesser skill than you, and not a very good striker. Catching the punch of a well trained striker is unlikely.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411751 - 11/17/08 06:42 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:

In order for standing jointlocks to work against a punch, your opponent has to be of MUCH lesser skill than you, and not a very good striker. Catching the punch of a well trained striker is unlikely.

--Chris




How about not waiting to be attacked? Who says I have to stand there and let someone swing first! Grab a hand or arm first. Then do your thang.

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#411752 - 11/17/08 07:08 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: BulldogTKD]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


How about not waiting to be attacked? Who says I have to stand there and let someone swing first! Grab a hand or arm first. Then do your thang.




A nice idea, but in my experience it is not the best strategy. When I am trying to grapple with someone striking me, I don't want to waste my time with arms and hands, because they don't give me sufficient control of the attacker's body. Instead, I want to clinch up with him straight away, and either drop for a single/double leg or work a body lock into a throw. Those are my two goals as soon as I enter grappling range, because they offer the most safety from getting hit, and the most control over your opponent.

Grabbing arms works if you are extremely quick and the opponent is caught completely unaware, but in grappling I have hardly ever seen one work- what I have seen is guys reaching for arms and getting thrown with seoi-nages or harai-goshis. And what if you don't manage to grab the arm because the guy has decent boxing skills? You will get hit and you will be at such a range that the strikes hurt. Instead, by controlling the body you are making yourself safe, and immediately imposing a grappling match on your opponent, whether he likes it or not.

Of course, I have seen standing arm locks work, but not with a high percentage. The question is what you want to use in self defense, a high percentage move, or a low percentage one. I know where my preference lies!

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#411753 - 11/18/08 04:12 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: BulldogTKD]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK





How about not waiting to be attacked? Who says I have to stand there and let someone swing first! Grab a hand or arm first. Then do your thang.




I wouldn't advise it! Against a weak, unskilled opponent OK - but a weak, unskilled opponent probably wouldn;t be challenging you in the 1st place. If you are fast and strong maybe you could lock an arm but they could easily be using their free hand to repeatedly hit you in the mush.

And I learnt that lesson the hard way! Which is why after that I only use locks on the ground.

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#411754 - 11/18/08 08:13 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: NewJitsu]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:






How about not waiting to be attacked? Who says I have to stand there and let someone swing first! Grab a hand or arm first. Then do your thang.




I wouldn't advise it! Against a weak, unskilled opponent OK - but a weak, unskilled opponent probably wouldn;t be challenging you in the 1st place. If you are fast and strong maybe you could lock an arm but they could easily be using their free hand to repeatedly hit you in the mush.

And I learnt that lesson the hard way! Which is why after that I only use locks on the ground.




Skilled, unskilled, you must move off line, unbalance and use the proper technique. Use the right tool for the job. If you cann't pull off a standing lock don't try it.

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#411755 - 11/19/08 10:06 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: janxspirit]
Rayson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Quote:


Grabbing someone's arm isn't so hard - the better you get at the clinch the better you are grabbing someone's arm.

Joint locks work better when performed on the ground: Position before submission.



I think so too. I bet clinch boxing (dirty boxing) and jujitsu/judo would work well together.

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#411756 - 11/19/08 01:04 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Rayson]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Most of the time when someone says a particular technique doesn't work, what they are really saying is that they have not been able to make it work.

If you like standing joint locks, then practice them and get good at them. If you don't like them, don't practice them and tell others how impractical they are. Either way you will confirm your beliefs.

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#411757 - 11/19/08 01:31 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Most of the time when someone says a particular technique doesn't work, what they are really saying is that they have not been able to make it work.





While I agree with you in theory, there are still some techniques which are lower percentage. What this means is, even with lots of training time with the technique, actually making it work against a resisting opponent is very difficult.

Now 'standing joint locks' is such a broad catagory, and there are so many techniques, that to say that "all standing joint locks are low percentage" is wrong, imho. However, I would say, having devoted a lot of time to the practice of them, and then trying to use them as a bouncer, that very few of them are workable in anything but an LEO type situation.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411758 - 11/20/08 12:32 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Most of the time when someone says a particular technique doesn't work, what they are really saying is that they have not been able to make it work




I have to agree with you here as that has been my experience as well.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#411759 - 11/20/08 12:37 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

that very few of them are workable in anything but an LEO type situation.




Why would you say that? Because the person is already in custody?

I have met many people who train in this area, but only a few who were good enough to apply them well in a SD application.

I don't think they are low percentage techniques, I think they are very difficult to achieve a practical level of skill.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#411760 - 11/20/08 06:05 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Kimo2007]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:

Quote:

that very few of them are workable in anything but an LEO type situation.




Why would you say that? Because the person is already in custody?

I have met many people who train in this area, but only a few who were good enough to apply them well in a SD application.

I don't think they are low percentage techniques, I think they are very difficult to achieve a practical level of skill.




I agree and as with anything, one must practice to become proficient. Even when doing ground submissions in a self defense situation you still need to be proficient. There are so many factors that come into play with any SD situation but you still need to use the right tools for the job.

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#411761 - 11/20/08 08:00 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Kimo2007]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Why would you say that? Because the person is already in custody?





Lol, yeah that's pretty much it. Usually they are useful after the guy has been droped, or if he/she is only half resisting. This is from my experiance when I was a bouncer and from LEO friends of mine. Your mileage may vary.

Quote:

I don't think they are low percentage techniques, I think they are very difficult to achieve a practical level of skill.





The fact they are "very difficult to acheive on a pratical level" is what makes them a low percentage technique.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411762 - 11/21/08 10:28 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Playing the piano is "very difficult to acheive on a practical level". But for those who practice for years, hitting the right notes becomes very high percentage.

For me to play the piano, hitting the right notes is very low percentage. This does not mean that making music is impractical, it just means I would need more practice.

Complex skills are like that. It is also what makes them rewarding to learn.


Edited by everyone (11/21/08 10:30 AM)

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#411763 - 11/21/08 12:58 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Rewarding to learn? Sure.

But you'll have to show me at least one example where anything but the simplest standing lock was applied in a real life encounter.

I've trained either Aikido, chin na, or Aikijujutsu for 15 years. Does that qualify as practicing for years? Of course, my experiance might not be enough.

Yet, one has to wonder why these techniques aren't used in MMA? They aren't even used in sparring by styles that practice these techniques regularly (such as karate, hapkido).


--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411764 - 11/21/08 03:13 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Why did you train so long in styles that specialize in techniques that you don't think work?

There a several threads that discuss why you don't see these techniques in competition.

I use joint locks in sparring against all levels of skill and practitioners from other schools. Usually in standing grappling or ground grappling. Vs. a strike, it would be hard not to cause serious damage because you have to apply the lock with speed. But I do practice getting into position for the lock during sparring (just don't apply it, I release it and keep sparring). It doesn't always work but nothing does. As long as I don't leave myself open and keep going, no big deal.

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#411765 - 11/21/08 03:46 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Why did you train so long in styles that specialize in techniques that you don't think work?





Some stuff does work. Most, not. As for why I trained it for so long? Well, that's personal, really. Mostly due to my belief that I could make the stuff work if I just trained harder/longer. Some I could, the complex stuff, I couldn't and have yet to meet anyone, aside from three people out of hundreds, who can.

Quote:

I use joint locks in sparring against all levels of skill and practitioners from other schools.




Quote:

But I do practice getting into position for the lock during sparring (just don't apply it, I release it and keep sparring).




Which is it? If you're not actually applying the lock then your not using "joint locks in sparring against all levels of skill and practitioners from other schools".

Getting into position is probably the easiest part (and, imo, the most useful part of the training), but applying the lock on someone who doesn't want you to is the hard part. If your not doing that, then you aren't using the locks at all.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411766 - 11/21/08 04:30 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
To be clear: I will use a joint lock and complete the lock in standing grappling or ground grappling. I do not attempt to complete the lock against a strike during sparring out of concern for my training partners safety. If completed vs. a strike, the result could be a break or a throw (depending on how they react) but it's too fast for me to control the result.

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#411767 - 11/21/08 04:43 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Who are you grappling during these occasions?

From my experiance a properly applied joint lock has a greater potential to injure during grappling (assuming the opponent is resisting), not less.

What style of striking are your opponents, whose punches you are able to catch, practicing?

From my experiance standing joint locks are incredibly difficult to pull off against an actual grappler (someone well trained in wrestling or bjj or judo). What skill level are these people you are grappling?


--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/21/08 04:47 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411768 - 11/21/08 05:13 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I don't think I could convince you, in this format anyway, that joint locks work. Maybe you can find some examples on youtube, or maybe not (I don't know). All I can tell you is that they have worked for me and others I know. There's a lot of people out there practicing them. I guess we could all be wrong or fooled somehow.

If your teachers in Aikido and Chin na couldn't satisfy your doubts, it's not likely I will be able to either. 15 years, wow!

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#411769 - 11/21/08 06:20 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
It's not a matter of you convincing me. It's just that you made a statement which suggests that you pull these techniques off against a variety of styles, and with people of diffirent levels, implying you do so against people better than yourself. Basically, I want to know your criteria. If you don't want to provide any examples, fine.

Quote:

There's a lot of people out there practicing them. I guess we could all be wrong or fooled somehow.





There are a lot of people practicing them. But honestly, if they are doing so thinking that it will work against a trained fighter, then, imo, they are fooling themselves.
But that isn't to say they don't have any real world application, because they do, provided they are not overly complex.

Also, yeah I spent 15 years in those arts. I also did other stuff during that time. I got something out of it, but having grappled with MMA/BJJ/Judo guys before, I know that standing joint locks almost never work against a grappler someone who is decently traine. My experiance seems mirrored by many others.



--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/21/08 06:23 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411770 - 11/23/08 02:50 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

In order for standing jointlocks to work against a punch, your opponent has to be of MUCH lesser skill than you, and not a very good striker. Catching the punch of a well trained striker is unlikely.

--Chris




"catching it" out of the air like a fly with chopsticks is definitely not easy.

But if you are good at the clinch, it is easy as pie.
_________________________
St. Louis MMA Boxing Grappling

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#411771 - 11/23/08 03:48 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: janxspirit]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Do you mean 'catching it' with an over/under hook?
Because, although I think the chances of success are much, much greater with the over/under hook, I still think that it isn't 'easy as pie' against a good striker (think good boxer).

Or do you just mean that in general joint locks are easier to apply (are higher percentage) from an already clinched position. Because if that's what you're saying, I agree 100%.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/23/08 03:56 PM)

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#411772 - 11/24/08 01:32 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Chris,

The clinch is what I was refering to as standing grappling. So it seems we now agree that in standing grappling joint locks are reasonable.

What we disagree on is how well joint locks work against a strike. I think it comes down to training method. The mechanics of a joint lock are taught in very controlled situations. It may be from a wrist grab or a particular strike. Once the trainee is comfortable with this, random grabs and strikes are added, but without resistance. This is to develop the gross movements and respond with the propper motions. Many schools do not go beyond this type of training. It may translate into useable skill for some but when faced with a skilled striker, they have not developed the skills to cope with the speed and resistance.

A drill that I find most usefull in developing useable skill in joint locks is what is often called "sticky hands". Two practitoners cross arms and feel the movements of the other. As they progress they start to learn angles to off-balance eachother with pushes and pulls (much like pushhands of Tai Chi). When this becomes natural then they start to look for openings to trap and strike (much like WC). As skills develop then the joint locks are added to the mix. Then throws and kicks. This is still a drill and not sparring because the game is to keep contact with the arms. But it is training in resistance and defense because the training partner is also trying to apply techniques as well. This practice at its highest levels looks very much like sparring. When actually sparring, the ability to sense your adversaries motions will be greatly hightened. Joint locks, openings for strikes, throws, etc.. flow much easier because you have learned to sense and manipulate their movements while keeping an active defense. It's not a matter of "catching" a punch but rather following their motion and taking advantage of their energy.

This may not be the only training method but it has worked well for me and others. It takes years of progression to work well. There are many details left out but I think this is enough to get the gist of it.

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#411773 - 11/24/08 02:58 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The clinch is what I was refering to as standing grappling. So it seems we now agree that in standing grappling joint locks are reasonable.





I'm with you here.

Quote:

A drill that I find most usefull in developing useable skill in joint locks is what is often called "sticky hands". Two practitoners cross arms and feel the movements of the other. As they progress they start to learn angles to off-balance eachother with pushes and pulls (much like pushhands of Tai Chi). When this becomes natural then they start to look for openings to trap and strike (much like WC). As skills develop then the joint locks are added to the mix. Then throws and kicks. This is still a drill and not sparring because the game is to keep contact with the arms. But it is training in resistance and defense because the training partner is also trying to apply techniques as well. This practice at its highest levels looks very much like sparring. When actually sparring, the ability to sense your adversaries motions will be greatly hightened. Joint locks, openings for strikes, throws, etc.. flow much easier because you have learned to sense and manipulate their movements while keeping an active defense. It's not a matter of "catching" a punch but rather following their motion and taking advantage of their energy.





The problem I have with WC 'sticky hands' is that it takes place in the clinch range, and often you would be better served clinching with the person and then applying a joint lock.

'Push hands' though, at least the way I have trained it, is imho a better sensitivity drill, because it includes the clinch. For me though, more and more, I've been taking JKogas advice and working on pummeling. It seems best for me.

I also think we are talking about diffirent things regarding 'catching a punch'. What I'm talking about is the extreme difficulty of catching a punch while you are both in the punching range (which is fairly common in JJ, and even more so in Aikido).

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/24/08 02:59 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411774 - 11/24/08 04:43 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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Registered: 01/02/07
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The drill I describe above is for any range from full arm extension (as long as at least wrists are crossed) to clinch (could include pummeling).

I can't imagine a joint lock working well where you stand idle at long range and try to "catch" an incoming attack. Moving in and greeting the attack with your arms to divert the attack more simulates the drill (as long as something from wrists to shoulders are crossed)and will make the joint locks usable. They do work.

I think what you are refering to is the initial stage of learning where someone grabs your arm a certian way or makes a big attack and you are learning the gross movements of how to manipulate the arm, wrist or shoulder (would only work if there's a huge commited attack). The actual application doesn't normally flow that way (because there is no resistance). The applications work best if there is a resisting opponent because they will lead you to the appropriate lock by following their energy.

If you prefer working out of a clinch, that's cool for you. It doesn't mean that longer range joint locks don't work.

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#411775 - 11/25/08 01:53 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The drill I describe above is for any range from full arm extension (as long as at least wrists are crossed) to clinch (could include pummeling).




Actually in your description of the drill, contact with the arm is already present before the joint lock is applied, and the range you suggest this being done in is not the striking range, but the clinch range.

Quote:

I can't imagine a joint lock working well where you stand idle at long range and try to "catch" an incoming attack. Moving in and greeting the attack with your arms to divert the attack more simulates the drill (as long as something from wrists to shoulders are crossed)and will make the joint locks usable. They do work.





This is the kind of thing I don't think works well against a trained striker. Against a drunk opponent, or someone who doesn't know how to throw? Sure, it could work.

And I'm not alone in my inability to use these kinds of techniques against a good striker. There is a reason why you don't see this in MMA. Can they work? I'm sure someone could pull them off. But most people, including extremely well trained fighters, find these techniques difficult to impossible to make work.

Quote:

I think what you are refering to is the initial stage of learning where someone grabs your arm a certian way or makes a big attack and you are learning the gross movements of how to manipulate the arm, wrist or shoulder (would only work if there's a huge commited attack).




No, I think we are talking about the same thing here. The concept of "moving in and greeting the attack" is called, in Aikido, 'entering'.

All of these techniques require an overcommited strike. Which is why doing it against a boxers jab in pretty much impossible.

Quote:

you prefer working out of a clinch, that's cool for you. It doesn't mean that longer range joint locks don't work.




You're right, it doesn't. But then, I have yet to see ONE example of such a techniuque working or being used during a live sparring engagement...which, again, suggests that these are relatively low percentage techniques. I don't mind being proven wrong, but you'll have to show some evidence here, because all evidence currently validates my statements.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411776 - 11/25/08 02:38 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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For a long time you didn't see much grappling techniques used in fights. Not because they didn't work or were low percentage techniques, but because there were few people well trained in them.

I guess now we agree that a very committed attack can be countered with a joint lock. The area we still disagree is with more probing attacks such as jabs.

Where I don't understand your reasoning is that even a fast jab will return to it's guard positon. Once contact is made with that arm, it's not hard to follow. A joint lock is no harder to apply to arms in a guard position then a full extension. But either way you it helps if they are still in motion because they will create the energy for the lock to be applied.

I think I am wasting my time trying to explain this. The skills need to be trained and experienced. There are training methods that work to train effective joint locks. I have to assume that you did not use good training methods because they don't work for you or those you train with.

We can argue from our own experiences but there is no way to transfer experiences in this format. I can try to describe training that will help you better apply the joint lock skills that you have learned; But I don't think you would be willing to put in the needed effort to change your own mind.

Where is the evidence that a well trained practicioner in the use of joint locks can't apply those techniques?

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#411777 - 11/25/08 03:25 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

For a long time you didn't see much grappling techniques used in fights. Not because they didn't work or were low percentage techniques, but because there were few people well trained in them.





Actually full contact arts do train some standing joint locks. Shooto, for example. But they work them off the clinch. Why? Because through years of experimentation, they found catching a punch was a very difficult thing to do. There is the assumption in that training that whoever you are going up against is a skilled striker, considering the other options, catching a punch presents to the 'catcher' an enormous risk. See below.

Quote:

Where I don't understand your reasoning is that even a fast jab will return to it's guard positon. Once contact is made with that arm, it's not hard to follow. A joint lock is no harder to apply to arms in a guard position then a full extension. But either way you it helps if they are still in motion because they will create the energy for the lock to be applied.





The problem here is that the jab is a setup for a more powerful strike that will follow. So moving in on the jab will pretty much set you up perfectly for the, say, overhand right, or hook to follow. If you follow the jab of even an average boxer, you will certainly find yourself eating a fist. While you are busy 'following the arm' and then gaining the needed grip you will be hit, most likely a few times. This is why it is important to train against a fully resistent striker, especially from another style.

So, if you do "follow the jab" back to the guard position, you are playing right into the strikers hand.

Quote:

I think I am wasting my time trying to explain this. The skills need to be trained and experienced. There are training methods that work to train effective joint locks. I have to assume that you did not use good training methods because they don't work for you or those you train with.





Assume away! I have 'trained and experianced" the skills. Further, I never said that 'all standing joint locks don't work'. But I have a lot of doubt that they can be done against a skilled striker. For the record, I have probably trained with some of the best Aikido teachers anywhere, not to mention my Aikijujutsu training.

You're earlier logic of these skills not being seen in MMA, having largely to do with these skills not being trained falls short. These skills are indeed trained by many TMA practioners. Why do MMA guys have to prove the technique, why can't you or others who already know it, validate it yourself on an MMA guy? You, yourself are suggesting that such training already takes place, and that you can do it against mulitple levels of skill, and mulitple styles. If they can be used, why doesn't someone (such as yourself) step up and demonstrate it! Get a video camera, or cellphone, or borrow one, go to a nearby boxingor MMA gym and demonstrate this skill, film it and post it. Or would that just be a 'waste of your time' too?

Usually, I wouldn't ask for such a thing, but you made it clear that you regularly:

Quote:

use joint locks in sparring against all levels of skill and practitioners from other schools.




So film it, and post it then.

Quote:

We can argue from our own experiences but there is no way to transfer experiences in this format. I can try to describe training that will help you better apply the joint lock skills that you have learned; But I don't think you would be willing to put in the needed effort to change your own mind.





Yes, everyone, I'm sure your method of training these methods is better than the teachers I trained with for 15 years, some of whom have spent upwards of forty years in thier respective arts, both JMA and CMA. Give me a break! This argument might work against someone with 6 months of training, but I've spent 15 years of hard, dedicated work on these techniques. Seriously, stop it with the backhanded insults and your arogant tone, because I will respond in kind.

About "transfering experiance", there is a way, and it is called video. Simply go through the protocal I outlined before, and I will gladly cede the agrument to you.

Quote:

Where is the evidence that a well trained practicioner in the use of joint locks can't apply those techniques?




Perhaps you don't understand how this works. I can clearly show hundreds of fights where joint locks were not off limits, yet were never used. This includes people who were trained in kung fu, JMA and CMA. Thus, the burden of evidence is on you to prove that they do work. The 'proof that they don't work' is the fact that they (meaning catching a punch and pulling off a standing joint lock) have never been used. Again, the burden of evidence is on you to prove they do.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/25/08 03:43 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411778 - 11/25/08 04:05 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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Chris,

Many schools do not train using an actively resisting training partner. This is your objection as well, as I read on the Aikido forum. There are drills to provide this type of resistance so you don't go right to sparring without the right preparation.

The techniques have worked for me. They do not work all the time nor am I able to dominate all those who come my way. I am a student not a master but I can still get the techniques to work as practiced (at least as well as I can make a kick work).

Sport fighters generally don't train joint locks, at least not well (as far as I have seen). I could film myself sparring but what would that prove. You would say that my opponent isn't a good striker if I were able to implement a joint lock.

I understand that the police in Japan are trained in Aikido and the police in China train Chin Na. I would have to assume that they do so because it is effective. They could all train in MMA or any style they wanted, but they specialize in joint-locking styles. Is that enough proof that they work?

I'm not saying joint locks are the best, or always work, or everyone should do them, or they would work well in mma, or anything other then that if trained properly, they can be effective.

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#411779 - 11/25/08 04:20 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

I understand that the police in Japan are trained in Aikido and the police in China train Chin Na. I would have to assume that they do so because it is effective. They could all train in MMA or any style they wanted, but they specialize in joint-locking styles. Is that enough proof that they work?





This is why I said they work well in an LEO situation. An LEO isn't allowed to knee/elbow someone in the face just because they are resisting arrest. The techniques they use are not nessescarily the best for everyone else. But yes, they are used by police agencies all over the world, and they are pretty good for that kind of work.

Just to restate what I've been saying. Joint locks work against less trained attackers, drunk people, or in an LEO situation. Someone trained in them and trained in the clinch can use them there too. everyone, if you personally find benefit in them during a punching exchange, then that's cool. But I don't think this is true for most people who have trained them, as is evidenced in a lack them being used in full contact sparring. Which is why I say they are low percentage.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411780 - 11/25/08 05:28 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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I'm not so sure that the Chinese police are not allowed to elbow someone in the face.

But that does bring up a good point on how elbows can be used effectively in conjunction with joint locks. Again, based upon another drill we do that blends elbows/locks/throws.

I think that most mma practicioners are focused on MT and BJJ. Someday a skilled outsider may introduce other skills and it might become the next big thing. Or maybe not, depending on how closed minded the sport is as a whole.

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#411781 - 11/26/08 11:39 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

I'm not so sure that the Chinese police are not allowed to elbow someone in the face.





It wouldn't suprise me either. I should have made it clearer, but I was talking about American/Canadian LEO's. I don't really know the use of force rules for the Chinese police. In Japan it is pretty much the same as here, but they have a larger 'spectrum'. In other words they can't just elbow someone in the face if they want to, but should the need arise it is not off limits.

Quote:

But that does bring up a good point on how elbows can be used effectively in conjunction with joint locks. Again, based upon another drill we do that blends elbows/locks/throws.

I think that most mma practicioners are focused on MT and BJJ. Someday a skilled outsider may introduce other skills and it might become the next big thing. Or maybe not, depending on how closed minded the sport is as a whole.




I find it amusing that you call the 'sport' close minded, yet you obviosly have never trained in it. If you had, you would be aware that many BJJ schools incorporate standing joint locks into their curriculum. See the book 'BJJ Self Defence Techiques" by Royce Gracie.

Out of three BJJ/MMA schools I have trained at, all of them have taught standing joint locks as part of their s.d. curriculum. We often worked the elbow to the face, into an overhook, into a shoulder lock, then throw type of technique.

The 'sport' isn't closed minded. It's just that these techniques have been found exceedingly difficult to apply against a well trained fighter. But they remain viable, and often better options (in a legal sense) against an untrained, or smaller,or slower,or more uncoordinated, or drunk or all of the above, assailent.

Also, keep in mind that in the early days of the UFC a number of practioners of other styles stepped forward, including representatives of arts that specialise in standing joint locks (such as silat, ninjutsu, kung fu), and none of them pulled them off. Why? Because the majority of them don't seem to work against trained fighters. Especially locks off of a punch, when your opponent is trained to throw rapid and powerful combinations.

So BJJ has stading joint locks for self defence, but have established the difficulty in applying these techniques against a trained fighter. The same for Muay Thai, the older styles had and trained joint locks, but they were found to be too low percentage. Thus, what we now know as 'sport' Muay Thai developed without these techniques being taught.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/26/08 11:55 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411782 - 11/26/08 12:14 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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Everything is difficult against a well trained fighter. If a person trains a technique, opportunities will present themselves to use it. If the general consensus is that it is a low percentage technique, it is not likely that someone interested in the sport will train it to a usable level.

If someone is able to apply a joint lock, you can say their opponent wasn't a skilled striker. If someone can't apply a joint lock, I say they aren't skilled enough in joint locks.

It's just a technique. Not the be all, end all. Throw it into the mix and it's one more thing for your opponent to worry about. When there is an opening for it, and a person is skilled in their use, joint locks can be effective.

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#411783 - 11/26/08 12:52 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

Everything is difficult against a well trained fighter. If a person trains a technique, opportunities will present themselves to use it. If the general consensus is that it is a low percentage technique, it is not likely that someone interested in the sport will train it to a usable level.




But what I think you are missing here is that the "consensus" wasn't gained through arbitraily calling some techniques 'high' or 'low' percentage. It was gained through the actual testing of these techniques, experimenting with them, and then coming to a consensus.

Quote:

If someone can't apply a joint lock, I say they aren't skilled enough in joint locks.





You can say that, and you have many times. The issue here is you'll need to show one person who has gotten to this hypothetical level. Right now, this is all too theoritical to claim that it is the practioners fault for not making the technique work against a skilled opponent. It will be hypothetical until there is at least one example of them being used as such.

Quote:

Throw it into the mix and it's one more thing for your opponent to worry about. When there is an opening for it, and a person is skilled in their use, joint locks can be effective.




No one is saying 'joint locks as a whole are ineffective'. What I am saying is that certain ones (such as those that rely on catching a punch) are ineffective against a certain kind of opponent.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411784 - 11/26/08 01:15 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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"No one is saying 'joint locks as a whole are ineffective'. What I am saying is that certain ones (such as those that rely on catching a punch) are ineffective against a certain kind of opponent."

Show me one that has been attempted and failed. Oh, that's right, they are low percentage so they are not even attempted. However, you say that the fighters are trained in these techniques (why would they bother?).

Techniques and fighting styles fall in and out of popularity. In the 80's, everyone knew that ninja's could kick everyones butt. Then it was BJJ, until it was found that striking still had it's place. But for a while, the general consensus in many circles was that grappling was king and would easily always defeat the striker.

The consensus on what works and what doesn't is fluid. I guess it's safest in the main stream.

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#411785 - 11/26/08 03:51 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

Show me one that has been attempted and failed. Oh, that's right, they are low percentage so they are not even attempted.




I don't have to show you where they have failed, because the current state of MMA is such that a variety of techniques have been attempted in a training environment and been found wanting for use against someone equally well trained. Again, the fact that they are in the BJJ currculum verifies that these techniques are trained, but have been found (by BJJ/MMA proponents) unsuitible for use against a well developed fighter. That is simply a fact that doesn't need to be physically shown. The majority weighs on my side. I can show you hundreds of fights where these techniques are not used, yet you can't show me one where they are!!! Don't try to turn the burden of evidence in my direction, because I have made very clear that

1. These techniques (meaning joint locks off a punch) are in fact trained by those you suggestted do not.
2. They have been experimented with.
3. They have never been shown in any kind of free sparring scenrio that has two fighters of equal ability. Not only in MMA, but in Sanda, Karate kumite, Sambo (who train these techniques to very high degree) matches.

All of these styles (from #3), do indeed train these techniques. Sambo spends longer than most systems on them, especially combat sambo. Yet, they go unused in competition, not only sambo comps. but my samboist who fight in MMA (where there is absolutely no rule against them). You're argument hangs around the fact that 'if MMA fighters actually trained the techniques, then they would work'; yet when I show that they do in fact train them, you seem to imply that they do not train them correctly. Sorry, that's nonsense. Samboist have some of the best ability at using standing joint locks off a punch that I have ever seen, yet they will tell you that they just don't work against a trained fighter.

Quote:

However, you say that the fighters are trained in these techniques (why would they bother?).




I've already stated why they "bother" to train these techniques, and am not going to repeat myself except to say that they work in situations where there is a great contrast in skill.

Quote:

Techniques and fighting styles fall in and out of popularity. In the 80's, everyone knew that ninja's could kick everyones butt. Then it was BJJ, until it was found that striking still had it's place. But for a while, the general consensus in many circles was that grappling was king and would easily always defeat the striker.





This is another thread all together. Grappling is still the great equilizer, because in order to defeat it, you need to train it. Even those fighters that are regarded as the best 'strikers' continue to train their ground game.

As to the ninja boom, I'm sick of hearing this used in an attempt to draw an analogy between it and MMA. Is it a fad? Maybe. Time will tell. But does that make the truths it has brought to the surface (the need of being skilled in all ranges, the simpler the better, the need of resistive training) any less relevent? Absolutely not.

Quote:

The consensus on what works and what doesn't is fluid. I guess it's safest in the main stream.




So, now you are willing to admit that my opinion is in the mainstream? This is precisely why the burden of evidence is on you to prove that I (and, apparently, the majority of folks out there) are wrong.

Honestly, rather than just engaging in rhetorical attempts to switch the burden of proof to me, and calling doubt on my personal abilities, as well as the hundreds of atheletes who have found these techniques to be wanting, how about you produce one shred of semi-objective evidence to support your claims?

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/26/08 03:58 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411786 - 11/26/08 04:57 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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I was trying to point out to you that popular consensus changes and is sometimes wrong.

Strikers didn't think they needed grappling. Then grapplers dominated and many didn't think they needed striking skills. Then striking skill proved their worth again.

Opinions on what works changes.

My opinion on the value of joint locks is based upon my experience applying them and having seen them applied. Sorry, no objective evidence to show you that they work. I could very well be wrong, it would not be the first or last time. You don't need to prove that they don't work, but if you could, that would sure be cool.

As far as calling doubt to your personal abilities: I have no clue what your abilities are other then what you posted. From what I understand, you practiced joint locking for 15 years, then realized they don't work. I suggested that maybe it was your training method. The same training method that you are critical of in the Aikido forum. Sorry if I offended you.

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#411787 - 11/27/08 10:30 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

As far as calling doubt to your personal abilities: I have no clue what your abilities are other then what you posted. From what I understand, you practiced joint locking for 15 years, then realized they don't work. I suggested that maybe it was your training method. The same training method that you are critical of in the Aikido forum. Sorry if I offended you.




Don't worry about it, I'm not offended in the least. It's perfectly fair for you to question my training method. Just to be clear, I have trained joint locks using other methodologies besides Aikido. I have trained to use these techniques in a free sparring scenerio and had some success, but never have I been told my any of my sensei or instructors that they can be used to catch the punch of a good striker.
From my thinking, it is as difficult to 'catch a punch' thrown by a good striker, as it would be to disarm a good swordsman.

Quote:

My opinion on the value of joint locks is based upon my experience applying them and having seen them applied.




That's fine. But you also made it clear that you don't apply them off of strikes, due to what you consider the high potential for injury.

Quote:

Usually in standing grappling or ground grappling. Vs. a strike, it would be hard not to cause serious damage because you have to apply the lock with speed. But I do practice getting into position for the lock during sparring (just don't apply it, I release it and keep sparring).




As the point I'm making regards the seeming difficulty of applying them off a strike in a fully restistive setting, I don't really grasp how your prior training proves their value in this setting. You have said that you don't do this.

If you aren't performing joint locks from a strike in sparring, then how exactly have you arrived at your conclusion?

Quote:

You don't need to prove that they don't work, but if you could, that would sure be cool.





Funny. I've given quite a bit of evidence that is more objective than my own. You have not done so. Rather, you continue to reduce this back to your own (subjective) experiance. Yet, you've never actually done it, so what are you actually going on?

It's fine to state that you, personally, think joint locks from a strike work. The problem is when you claim that the reason why they don't work for others is because they don't 'train them hard enough'. If you're going to try and make your personal experiance speak for the many, expect to be asked to produce SOME evidence. So far, you have produced nothing.

One example (out of many) that I've given is Sambo. These techniques (so called 'punch catching joint locks') are trained to a very high level, yet a Samboist still doesn't try them against a skilled striker, because to do so would be suicide.

I have produced a large amount of evidence, so before you make a statement like the one above, you would do well to do the same. So far, all you have done is relate this back to your own personal experiance which, sorry to say, does not seemingly even contain the kind of use of these techniques I am disscussing. In other words, you're experiance means very little as a counterpoint to my argument, because you do not actually 'apply the lock' in sparring. So, your own experiance doesn't validate your claim, nor can you show another's ability to use these techniques ('catching a punch and joing locking') in a resistive sparring scenerio.

Which is why, again, I'm led to wonder what exactly you are basing your opinion on?

It seems to be purely hypothetical from where I'm sitting.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/27/08 10:30 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
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#411788 - 12/01/08 10:59 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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I am uncomfortable with the term "catch" a strike. In mid to close range, the contact allows for directing a strike into joint locking. That is why the "sticky hands" drill works well for training this skill. (I am not sure we are talking about the same thing)

I do not know what Sambo does/doesn't do. I would think that it would be hard to make such generalizations though.

What is commonly done is not always the same as what can be done. What is commonly done isn't always the best either.

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#411789 - 12/02/08 03:55 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

I am uncomfortable with the term "catch" a strike. In mid to close range, the contact allows for directing a strike into joint locking.
Make sure to move so you are not in the path of the strike should you miss the grab. Try to make contact with their arm as close to their body as possible.




That's fine if you are now uncomfortable with that term, but you are the one who intially used it. What I intially was speaking to was when you said:

Quote:

Catching an incoming strike is not easy. It has to be a commited attack, not a jab. There are tricks to timing and reading your opponents telegraphs.





To which I basically agreed, but added that such a thing involves a great discrepency of skill between two fighters. And then you said it doesn't, because you use it regularly. If you want to refine/alter your terms now, that's cool, but from the post I quoted above, you did seem to be talking about long range strike 'catching'.

Quote:

That is why the "sticky hands" drill works well for training this skill. (I am not sure we are talking about the same thing)





Again, from the post I quoted from above, you seem to have been intially talking about longer range strike catching.

What you are talking about here is, again, the trapping/clinch range. I have made it clear that I am talking about the difficulty of catching a strike while still in the striking range (including moving in from that range to 'meet' the strike, which is naturally including in 'catching' it).

We may not now be talking about the same thing, but intially we were. You said:

Quote:

Moving in and greeting the attack with your arms to divert the attack more simulates the drill (as long as something from wrists to shoulders are crossed)and will make the joint locks usable. They do work.




Which I consider to be dealing with the strike while both of you are in the striking range: You are moving from that range to redirect and 'catch' the strike in the scenerio you give above. This is pretty much exactly what I am, and was, refering to as a very difficult thing to pull off (against a skilled striker).

Now if at this point you are altering your original response, tp talk about "mid to close range", that cool.I will, yet again, say I agree, that the chance of success of these techniques if far greater in the clinch/trapping range than in the striking.


--Chris


Edited by Ames (12/02/08 03:56 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411790 - 12/02/08 04:43 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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The OP brought up "catching" a punch. I stated it was difficult but can be done vs. a committed attack.

Latter we were speaking of JL in general (at least I thought we were) and I feel they work well in a range where limbs cross. If out of that range, I suggested moving into that range by diverting the attack (not catching the punch)before attempting a JL.

Sorry if I was not clear.

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#411791 - 12/02/08 05:19 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Posts: 1117
LOL, I guess we were basically talking about the same thing this whole time then. I was specifically talking about the difficulty in applying joint locks off the strike, not all joint locking techniques. We seem to agree then: they work best in the clinch/trap range. But, using them directly off a strike generaly necessitates there being less than competent striker.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411792 - 12/16/08 12:50 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
Zlarin Offline
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Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 5
Loc: NE
In my Daito-ryu class, whenever a technique is applied when an opponent strikes, we are told to first block or deflect the technique, then apply an atemi followed by the lock. There are only a few instances when any sort of strike is "caught" in our class.

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#411793 - 01/03/09 07:53 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Zlarin]
Ames Offline
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Yep, that's my experience with DR as well. Same for the good Aikido dojo's out there.

--Chris
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

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