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#411775 - 11/25/08 01:53 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The drill I describe above is for any range from full arm extension (as long as at least wrists are crossed) to clinch (could include pummeling).




Actually in your description of the drill, contact with the arm is already present before the joint lock is applied, and the range you suggest this being done in is not the striking range, but the clinch range.

Quote:

I can't imagine a joint lock working well where you stand idle at long range and try to "catch" an incoming attack. Moving in and greeting the attack with your arms to divert the attack more simulates the drill (as long as something from wrists to shoulders are crossed)and will make the joint locks usable. They do work.





This is the kind of thing I don't think works well against a trained striker. Against a drunk opponent, or someone who doesn't know how to throw? Sure, it could work.

And I'm not alone in my inability to use these kinds of techniques against a good striker. There is a reason why you don't see this in MMA. Can they work? I'm sure someone could pull them off. But most people, including extremely well trained fighters, find these techniques difficult to impossible to make work.

Quote:

I think what you are refering to is the initial stage of learning where someone grabs your arm a certian way or makes a big attack and you are learning the gross movements of how to manipulate the arm, wrist or shoulder (would only work if there's a huge commited attack).




No, I think we are talking about the same thing here. The concept of "moving in and greeting the attack" is called, in Aikido, 'entering'.

All of these techniques require an overcommited strike. Which is why doing it against a boxers jab in pretty much impossible.

Quote:

you prefer working out of a clinch, that's cool for you. It doesn't mean that longer range joint locks don't work.




You're right, it doesn't. But then, I have yet to see ONE example of such a techniuque working or being used during a live sparring engagement...which, again, suggests that these are relatively low percentage techniques. I don't mind being proven wrong, but you'll have to show some evidence here, because all evidence currently validates my statements.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411776 - 11/25/08 02:38 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
For a long time you didn't see much grappling techniques used in fights. Not because they didn't work or were low percentage techniques, but because there were few people well trained in them.

I guess now we agree that a very committed attack can be countered with a joint lock. The area we still disagree is with more probing attacks such as jabs.

Where I don't understand your reasoning is that even a fast jab will return to it's guard positon. Once contact is made with that arm, it's not hard to follow. A joint lock is no harder to apply to arms in a guard position then a full extension. But either way you it helps if they are still in motion because they will create the energy for the lock to be applied.

I think I am wasting my time trying to explain this. The skills need to be trained and experienced. There are training methods that work to train effective joint locks. I have to assume that you did not use good training methods because they don't work for you or those you train with.

We can argue from our own experiences but there is no way to transfer experiences in this format. I can try to describe training that will help you better apply the joint lock skills that you have learned; But I don't think you would be willing to put in the needed effort to change your own mind.

Where is the evidence that a well trained practicioner in the use of joint locks can't apply those techniques?

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#411777 - 11/25/08 03:25 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

For a long time you didn't see much grappling techniques used in fights. Not because they didn't work or were low percentage techniques, but because there were few people well trained in them.





Actually full contact arts do train some standing joint locks. Shooto, for example. But they work them off the clinch. Why? Because through years of experimentation, they found catching a punch was a very difficult thing to do. There is the assumption in that training that whoever you are going up against is a skilled striker, considering the other options, catching a punch presents to the 'catcher' an enormous risk. See below.

Quote:

Where I don't understand your reasoning is that even a fast jab will return to it's guard positon. Once contact is made with that arm, it's not hard to follow. A joint lock is no harder to apply to arms in a guard position then a full extension. But either way you it helps if they are still in motion because they will create the energy for the lock to be applied.





The problem here is that the jab is a setup for a more powerful strike that will follow. So moving in on the jab will pretty much set you up perfectly for the, say, overhand right, or hook to follow. If you follow the jab of even an average boxer, you will certainly find yourself eating a fist. While you are busy 'following the arm' and then gaining the needed grip you will be hit, most likely a few times. This is why it is important to train against a fully resistent striker, especially from another style.

So, if you do "follow the jab" back to the guard position, you are playing right into the strikers hand.

Quote:

I think I am wasting my time trying to explain this. The skills need to be trained and experienced. There are training methods that work to train effective joint locks. I have to assume that you did not use good training methods because they don't work for you or those you train with.





Assume away! I have 'trained and experianced" the skills. Further, I never said that 'all standing joint locks don't work'. But I have a lot of doubt that they can be done against a skilled striker. For the record, I have probably trained with some of the best Aikido teachers anywhere, not to mention my Aikijujutsu training.

You're earlier logic of these skills not being seen in MMA, having largely to do with these skills not being trained falls short. These skills are indeed trained by many TMA practioners. Why do MMA guys have to prove the technique, why can't you or others who already know it, validate it yourself on an MMA guy? You, yourself are suggesting that such training already takes place, and that you can do it against mulitple levels of skill, and mulitple styles. If they can be used, why doesn't someone (such as yourself) step up and demonstrate it! Get a video camera, or cellphone, or borrow one, go to a nearby boxingor MMA gym and demonstrate this skill, film it and post it. Or would that just be a 'waste of your time' too?

Usually, I wouldn't ask for such a thing, but you made it clear that you regularly:

Quote:

use joint locks in sparring against all levels of skill and practitioners from other schools.




So film it, and post it then.

Quote:

We can argue from our own experiences but there is no way to transfer experiences in this format. I can try to describe training that will help you better apply the joint lock skills that you have learned; But I don't think you would be willing to put in the needed effort to change your own mind.





Yes, everyone, I'm sure your method of training these methods is better than the teachers I trained with for 15 years, some of whom have spent upwards of forty years in thier respective arts, both JMA and CMA. Give me a break! This argument might work against someone with 6 months of training, but I've spent 15 years of hard, dedicated work on these techniques. Seriously, stop it with the backhanded insults and your arogant tone, because I will respond in kind.

About "transfering experiance", there is a way, and it is called video. Simply go through the protocal I outlined before, and I will gladly cede the agrument to you.

Quote:

Where is the evidence that a well trained practicioner in the use of joint locks can't apply those techniques?




Perhaps you don't understand how this works. I can clearly show hundreds of fights where joint locks were not off limits, yet were never used. This includes people who were trained in kung fu, JMA and CMA. Thus, the burden of evidence is on you to prove that they do work. The 'proof that they don't work' is the fact that they (meaning catching a punch and pulling off a standing joint lock) have never been used. Again, the burden of evidence is on you to prove they do.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/25/08 03:43 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411778 - 11/25/08 04:05 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Chris,

Many schools do not train using an actively resisting training partner. This is your objection as well, as I read on the Aikido forum. There are drills to provide this type of resistance so you don't go right to sparring without the right preparation.

The techniques have worked for me. They do not work all the time nor am I able to dominate all those who come my way. I am a student not a master but I can still get the techniques to work as practiced (at least as well as I can make a kick work).

Sport fighters generally don't train joint locks, at least not well (as far as I have seen). I could film myself sparring but what would that prove. You would say that my opponent isn't a good striker if I were able to implement a joint lock.

I understand that the police in Japan are trained in Aikido and the police in China train Chin Na. I would have to assume that they do so because it is effective. They could all train in MMA or any style they wanted, but they specialize in joint-locking styles. Is that enough proof that they work?

I'm not saying joint locks are the best, or always work, or everyone should do them, or they would work well in mma, or anything other then that if trained properly, they can be effective.

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#411779 - 11/25/08 04:20 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

I understand that the police in Japan are trained in Aikido and the police in China train Chin Na. I would have to assume that they do so because it is effective. They could all train in MMA or any style they wanted, but they specialize in joint-locking styles. Is that enough proof that they work?





This is why I said they work well in an LEO situation. An LEO isn't allowed to knee/elbow someone in the face just because they are resisting arrest. The techniques they use are not nessescarily the best for everyone else. But yes, they are used by police agencies all over the world, and they are pretty good for that kind of work.

Just to restate what I've been saying. Joint locks work against less trained attackers, drunk people, or in an LEO situation. Someone trained in them and trained in the clinch can use them there too. everyone, if you personally find benefit in them during a punching exchange, then that's cool. But I don't think this is true for most people who have trained them, as is evidenced in a lack them being used in full contact sparring. Which is why I say they are low percentage.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411780 - 11/25/08 05:28 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I'm not so sure that the Chinese police are not allowed to elbow someone in the face.

But that does bring up a good point on how elbows can be used effectively in conjunction with joint locks. Again, based upon another drill we do that blends elbows/locks/throws.

I think that most mma practicioners are focused on MT and BJJ. Someday a skilled outsider may introduce other skills and it might become the next big thing. Or maybe not, depending on how closed minded the sport is as a whole.

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#411781 - 11/26/08 11:39 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

I'm not so sure that the Chinese police are not allowed to elbow someone in the face.





It wouldn't suprise me either. I should have made it clearer, but I was talking about American/Canadian LEO's. I don't really know the use of force rules for the Chinese police. In Japan it is pretty much the same as here, but they have a larger 'spectrum'. In other words they can't just elbow someone in the face if they want to, but should the need arise it is not off limits.

Quote:

But that does bring up a good point on how elbows can be used effectively in conjunction with joint locks. Again, based upon another drill we do that blends elbows/locks/throws.

I think that most mma practicioners are focused on MT and BJJ. Someday a skilled outsider may introduce other skills and it might become the next big thing. Or maybe not, depending on how closed minded the sport is as a whole.




I find it amusing that you call the 'sport' close minded, yet you obviosly have never trained in it. If you had, you would be aware that many BJJ schools incorporate standing joint locks into their curriculum. See the book 'BJJ Self Defence Techiques" by Royce Gracie.

Out of three BJJ/MMA schools I have trained at, all of them have taught standing joint locks as part of their s.d. curriculum. We often worked the elbow to the face, into an overhook, into a shoulder lock, then throw type of technique.

The 'sport' isn't closed minded. It's just that these techniques have been found exceedingly difficult to apply against a well trained fighter. But they remain viable, and often better options (in a legal sense) against an untrained, or smaller,or slower,or more uncoordinated, or drunk or all of the above, assailent.

Also, keep in mind that in the early days of the UFC a number of practioners of other styles stepped forward, including representatives of arts that specialise in standing joint locks (such as silat, ninjutsu, kung fu), and none of them pulled them off. Why? Because the majority of them don't seem to work against trained fighters. Especially locks off of a punch, when your opponent is trained to throw rapid and powerful combinations.

So BJJ has stading joint locks for self defence, but have established the difficulty in applying these techniques against a trained fighter. The same for Muay Thai, the older styles had and trained joint locks, but they were found to be too low percentage. Thus, what we now know as 'sport' Muay Thai developed without these techniques being taught.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/26/08 11:55 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411782 - 11/26/08 12:14 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Everything is difficult against a well trained fighter. If a person trains a technique, opportunities will present themselves to use it. If the general consensus is that it is a low percentage technique, it is not likely that someone interested in the sport will train it to a usable level.

If someone is able to apply a joint lock, you can say their opponent wasn't a skilled striker. If someone can't apply a joint lock, I say they aren't skilled enough in joint locks.

It's just a technique. Not the be all, end all. Throw it into the mix and it's one more thing for your opponent to worry about. When there is an opening for it, and a person is skilled in their use, joint locks can be effective.

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#411783 - 11/26/08 12:52 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Everything is difficult against a well trained fighter. If a person trains a technique, opportunities will present themselves to use it. If the general consensus is that it is a low percentage technique, it is not likely that someone interested in the sport will train it to a usable level.




But what I think you are missing here is that the "consensus" wasn't gained through arbitraily calling some techniques 'high' or 'low' percentage. It was gained through the actual testing of these techniques, experimenting with them, and then coming to a consensus.

Quote:

If someone can't apply a joint lock, I say they aren't skilled enough in joint locks.





You can say that, and you have many times. The issue here is you'll need to show one person who has gotten to this hypothetical level. Right now, this is all too theoritical to claim that it is the practioners fault for not making the technique work against a skilled opponent. It will be hypothetical until there is at least one example of them being used as such.

Quote:

Throw it into the mix and it's one more thing for your opponent to worry about. When there is an opening for it, and a person is skilled in their use, joint locks can be effective.




No one is saying 'joint locks as a whole are ineffective'. What I am saying is that certain ones (such as those that rely on catching a punch) are ineffective against a certain kind of opponent.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411784 - 11/26/08 01:15 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
"No one is saying 'joint locks as a whole are ineffective'. What I am saying is that certain ones (such as those that rely on catching a punch) are ineffective against a certain kind of opponent."

Show me one that has been attempted and failed. Oh, that's right, they are low percentage so they are not even attempted. However, you say that the fighters are trained in these techniques (why would they bother?).

Techniques and fighting styles fall in and out of popularity. In the 80's, everyone knew that ninja's could kick everyones butt. Then it was BJJ, until it was found that striking still had it's place. But for a while, the general consensus in many circles was that grappling was king and would easily always defeat the striker.

The consensus on what works and what doesn't is fluid. I guess it's safest in the main stream.

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