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#411765 - 11/21/08 03:46 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Why did you train so long in styles that specialize in techniques that you don't think work?





Some stuff does work. Most, not. As for why I trained it for so long? Well, that's personal, really. Mostly due to my belief that I could make the stuff work if I just trained harder/longer. Some I could, the complex stuff, I couldn't and have yet to meet anyone, aside from three people out of hundreds, who can.

Quote:

I use joint locks in sparring against all levels of skill and practitioners from other schools.




Quote:

But I do practice getting into position for the lock during sparring (just don't apply it, I release it and keep sparring).




Which is it? If you're not actually applying the lock then your not using "joint locks in sparring against all levels of skill and practitioners from other schools".

Getting into position is probably the easiest part (and, imo, the most useful part of the training), but applying the lock on someone who doesn't want you to is the hard part. If your not doing that, then you aren't using the locks at all.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411766 - 11/21/08 04:30 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
To be clear: I will use a joint lock and complete the lock in standing grappling or ground grappling. I do not attempt to complete the lock against a strike during sparring out of concern for my training partners safety. If completed vs. a strike, the result could be a break or a throw (depending on how they react) but it's too fast for me to control the result.

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#411767 - 11/21/08 04:43 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Who are you grappling during these occasions?

From my experiance a properly applied joint lock has a greater potential to injure during grappling (assuming the opponent is resisting), not less.

What style of striking are your opponents, whose punches you are able to catch, practicing?

From my experiance standing joint locks are incredibly difficult to pull off against an actual grappler (someone well trained in wrestling or bjj or judo). What skill level are these people you are grappling?


--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/21/08 04:47 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411768 - 11/21/08 05:13 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I don't think I could convince you, in this format anyway, that joint locks work. Maybe you can find some examples on youtube, or maybe not (I don't know). All I can tell you is that they have worked for me and others I know. There's a lot of people out there practicing them. I guess we could all be wrong or fooled somehow.

If your teachers in Aikido and Chin na couldn't satisfy your doubts, it's not likely I will be able to either. 15 years, wow!

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#411769 - 11/21/08 06:20 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
It's not a matter of you convincing me. It's just that you made a statement which suggests that you pull these techniques off against a variety of styles, and with people of diffirent levels, implying you do so against people better than yourself. Basically, I want to know your criteria. If you don't want to provide any examples, fine.

Quote:

There's a lot of people out there practicing them. I guess we could all be wrong or fooled somehow.





There are a lot of people practicing them. But honestly, if they are doing so thinking that it will work against a trained fighter, then, imo, they are fooling themselves.
But that isn't to say they don't have any real world application, because they do, provided they are not overly complex.

Also, yeah I spent 15 years in those arts. I also did other stuff during that time. I got something out of it, but having grappled with MMA/BJJ/Judo guys before, I know that standing joint locks almost never work against a grappler someone who is decently traine. My experiance seems mirrored by many others.



--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/21/08 06:23 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411770 - 11/23/08 02:50 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

In order for standing jointlocks to work against a punch, your opponent has to be of MUCH lesser skill than you, and not a very good striker. Catching the punch of a well trained striker is unlikely.

--Chris




"catching it" out of the air like a fly with chopsticks is definitely not easy.

But if you are good at the clinch, it is easy as pie.
_________________________
St. Louis MMA Boxing Grappling

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#411771 - 11/23/08 03:48 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: janxspirit]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Do you mean 'catching it' with an over/under hook?
Because, although I think the chances of success are much, much greater with the over/under hook, I still think that it isn't 'easy as pie' against a good striker (think good boxer).

Or do you just mean that in general joint locks are easier to apply (are higher percentage) from an already clinched position. Because if that's what you're saying, I agree 100%.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/23/08 03:56 PM)

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#411772 - 11/24/08 01:32 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
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Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Chris,

The clinch is what I was refering to as standing grappling. So it seems we now agree that in standing grappling joint locks are reasonable.

What we disagree on is how well joint locks work against a strike. I think it comes down to training method. The mechanics of a joint lock are taught in very controlled situations. It may be from a wrist grab or a particular strike. Once the trainee is comfortable with this, random grabs and strikes are added, but without resistance. This is to develop the gross movements and respond with the propper motions. Many schools do not go beyond this type of training. It may translate into useable skill for some but when faced with a skilled striker, they have not developed the skills to cope with the speed and resistance.

A drill that I find most usefull in developing useable skill in joint locks is what is often called "sticky hands". Two practitoners cross arms and feel the movements of the other. As they progress they start to learn angles to off-balance eachother with pushes and pulls (much like pushhands of Tai Chi). When this becomes natural then they start to look for openings to trap and strike (much like WC). As skills develop then the joint locks are added to the mix. Then throws and kicks. This is still a drill and not sparring because the game is to keep contact with the arms. But it is training in resistance and defense because the training partner is also trying to apply techniques as well. This practice at its highest levels looks very much like sparring. When actually sparring, the ability to sense your adversaries motions will be greatly hightened. Joint locks, openings for strikes, throws, etc.. flow much easier because you have learned to sense and manipulate their movements while keeping an active defense. It's not a matter of "catching" a punch but rather following their motion and taking advantage of their energy.

This may not be the only training method but it has worked well for me and others. It takes years of progression to work well. There are many details left out but I think this is enough to get the gist of it.

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#411773 - 11/24/08 02:58 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The clinch is what I was refering to as standing grappling. So it seems we now agree that in standing grappling joint locks are reasonable.





I'm with you here.

Quote:

A drill that I find most usefull in developing useable skill in joint locks is what is often called "sticky hands". Two practitoners cross arms and feel the movements of the other. As they progress they start to learn angles to off-balance eachother with pushes and pulls (much like pushhands of Tai Chi). When this becomes natural then they start to look for openings to trap and strike (much like WC). As skills develop then the joint locks are added to the mix. Then throws and kicks. This is still a drill and not sparring because the game is to keep contact with the arms. But it is training in resistance and defense because the training partner is also trying to apply techniques as well. This practice at its highest levels looks very much like sparring. When actually sparring, the ability to sense your adversaries motions will be greatly hightened. Joint locks, openings for strikes, throws, etc.. flow much easier because you have learned to sense and manipulate their movements while keeping an active defense. It's not a matter of "catching" a punch but rather following their motion and taking advantage of their energy.





The problem I have with WC 'sticky hands' is that it takes place in the clinch range, and often you would be better served clinching with the person and then applying a joint lock.

'Push hands' though, at least the way I have trained it, is imho a better sensitivity drill, because it includes the clinch. For me though, more and more, I've been taking JKogas advice and working on pummeling. It seems best for me.

I also think we are talking about diffirent things regarding 'catching a punch'. What I'm talking about is the extreme difficulty of catching a punch while you are both in the punching range (which is fairly common in JJ, and even more so in Aikido).

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/24/08 02:59 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411774 - 11/24/08 04:43 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
The drill I describe above is for any range from full arm extension (as long as at least wrists are crossed) to clinch (could include pummeling).

I can't imagine a joint lock working well where you stand idle at long range and try to "catch" an incoming attack. Moving in and greeting the attack with your arms to divert the attack more simulates the drill (as long as something from wrists to shoulders are crossed)and will make the joint locks usable. They do work.

I think what you are refering to is the initial stage of learning where someone grabs your arm a certian way or makes a big attack and you are learning the gross movements of how to manipulate the arm, wrist or shoulder (would only work if there's a huge commited attack). The actual application doesn't normally flow that way (because there is no resistance). The applications work best if there is a resisting opponent because they will lead you to the appropriate lock by following their energy.

If you prefer working out of a clinch, that's cool for you. It doesn't mean that longer range joint locks don't work.

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