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#411755 - 11/19/08 10:06 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: janxspirit]
Rayson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Quote:


Grabbing someone's arm isn't so hard - the better you get at the clinch the better you are grabbing someone's arm.

Joint locks work better when performed on the ground: Position before submission.



I think so too. I bet clinch boxing (dirty boxing) and jujitsu/judo would work well together.

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#411756 - 11/19/08 01:04 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Rayson]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Most of the time when someone says a particular technique doesn't work, what they are really saying is that they have not been able to make it work.

If you like standing joint locks, then practice them and get good at them. If you don't like them, don't practice them and tell others how impractical they are. Either way you will confirm your beliefs.

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#411757 - 11/19/08 01:31 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Most of the time when someone says a particular technique doesn't work, what they are really saying is that they have not been able to make it work.





While I agree with you in theory, there are still some techniques which are lower percentage. What this means is, even with lots of training time with the technique, actually making it work against a resisting opponent is very difficult.

Now 'standing joint locks' is such a broad catagory, and there are so many techniques, that to say that "all standing joint locks are low percentage" is wrong, imho. However, I would say, having devoted a lot of time to the practice of them, and then trying to use them as a bouncer, that very few of them are workable in anything but an LEO type situation.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411758 - 11/20/08 12:32 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Most of the time when someone says a particular technique doesn't work, what they are really saying is that they have not been able to make it work




I have to agree with you here as that has been my experience as well.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#411759 - 11/20/08 12:37 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

that very few of them are workable in anything but an LEO type situation.




Why would you say that? Because the person is already in custody?

I have met many people who train in this area, but only a few who were good enough to apply them well in a SD application.

I don't think they are low percentage techniques, I think they are very difficult to achieve a practical level of skill.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#411760 - 11/20/08 06:05 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Kimo2007]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:

Quote:

that very few of them are workable in anything but an LEO type situation.




Why would you say that? Because the person is already in custody?

I have met many people who train in this area, but only a few who were good enough to apply them well in a SD application.

I don't think they are low percentage techniques, I think they are very difficult to achieve a practical level of skill.




I agree and as with anything, one must practice to become proficient. Even when doing ground submissions in a self defense situation you still need to be proficient. There are so many factors that come into play with any SD situation but you still need to use the right tools for the job.

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#411761 - 11/20/08 08:00 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Kimo2007]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Why would you say that? Because the person is already in custody?





Lol, yeah that's pretty much it. Usually they are useful after the guy has been droped, or if he/she is only half resisting. This is from my experiance when I was a bouncer and from LEO friends of mine. Your mileage may vary.

Quote:

I don't think they are low percentage techniques, I think they are very difficult to achieve a practical level of skill.





The fact they are "very difficult to acheive on a pratical level" is what makes them a low percentage technique.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411762 - 11/21/08 10:28 AM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Playing the piano is "very difficult to acheive on a practical level". But for those who practice for years, hitting the right notes becomes very high percentage.

For me to play the piano, hitting the right notes is very low percentage. This does not mean that making music is impractical, it just means I would need more practice.

Complex skills are like that. It is also what makes them rewarding to learn.


Edited by everyone (11/21/08 10:30 AM)

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#411763 - 11/21/08 12:58 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: everyone]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Rewarding to learn? Sure.

But you'll have to show me at least one example where anything but the simplest standing lock was applied in a real life encounter.

I've trained either Aikido, chin na, or Aikijujutsu for 15 years. Does that qualify as practicing for years? Of course, my experiance might not be enough.

Yet, one has to wonder why these techniques aren't used in MMA? They aren't even used in sparring by styles that practice these techniques regularly (such as karate, hapkido).


--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#411764 - 11/21/08 03:13 PM Re: Joint Locks [Re: Ames]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Why did you train so long in styles that specialize in techniques that you don't think work?

There a several threads that discuss why you don't see these techniques in competition.

I use joint locks in sparring against all levels of skill and practitioners from other schools. Usually in standing grappling or ground grappling. Vs. a strike, it would be hard not to cause serious damage because you have to apply the lock with speed. But I do practice getting into position for the lock during sparring (just don't apply it, I release it and keep sparring). It doesn't always work but nothing does. As long as I don't leave myself open and keep going, no big deal.

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