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#411285 - 11/06/08 06:31 PM Should resistent randori be introduced?
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Deleted post.

Topic became: "Is Aikido a fighting art?"

Please see new "Resistence in Aikido" thread.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/17/08 04:59 PM)
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#411286 - 11/07/08 10:03 AM Re: Should resistent randori be introduced? [Re: Ames]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
Hmm. My limited experience with Aikido taught me more about choreography than fighting. As an art it is built around uke being totally compliant and would not just not be practical to add resistance. Try and slap a wristlock on when someone's punching you in the face? Tricky, to say the least.... I just can't see any practical applications to Aikido. Resistance could not be included because it would finish the art off, IMO.... Scales falling from eyes and so on.

I still love Under Siege though....

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#411287 - 11/07/08 01:53 PM Re: Should resistent randori be introduced? [Re: NewJitsu]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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I think any art that is practiced for combat potential needs resistant training. Here is a thread with some vids of Aikido with more unscripted randori:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15944833
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#411288 - 11/07/08 02:15 PM Re: Should resistent randori be introduced? [Re: Ames]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
For the uninitiated, here is some Randori from Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido:

Longer Clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY&feature=related


Lots of Short clips (less than 20 seconds each):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA0XACGbYck&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slmHJdbNdak&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck61s5GeOYU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA0XACGbYck&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D26GZJwYIE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajn6Jk_ESuo&feature=related


So as Ames mentions, there already exists a style of Aikido where competition/resistant randori is in place.

I think this is a fine line. I think Aikido Randori (and I have done quite a bit of it myself) needs to be like Push Hands in Taijiquan. The practioner should be able to demonstrate the principles of the system against someone who is resisting them.

I think New Jitsu made a decent point regarding Aikido moving too far away from its core system though. If it stops focusing on demonstration of understanding of Aikido against resistance, it isn't Aikido anymore.

As a comparison from my own experience I think of Judo. I studied Judo in 3 different clubs. 2 were modern clubs, referring to Judo as sport. As well as Randori, the other club took a more traditional approach to Judo. It focused on Waza, Kata, understanding the principles of Judo.

Many modern Judo clubs teach something akin to Olympic Wrestling. Nothing wrong with that if that floats your boat, but there is debate in the Judo community regarding how much Judo has moved away from its roots.

With all that said, I think resistance training should be part of Aikido as a) Tomiki/Shodokan shows it can be done b) it gives students a good opportunity to demonstrate their understanding of Aikido.
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#411289 - 11/11/08 08:29 AM Re: Should resistent randori be introduced? [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Resistance and "aiki" in the same breath is an oxymoron...

By definition, "aiki", meaning "to unite/join with another's 'ki' or force", implies being in accord with your opponent. And since you are in unison with your opponent (there is no opponent!), there can be no resistance.

"Resistance" is the result of your opponent sensing your force and opposing it. It is the opposition of forces between you and another that creates resistance. Like an electrical current passing thru a wire, the impedence in the wire creates resistance, and resistance creates heat.

Or magnets... like poles repel, opposite poles attract. Yin and Yang.

So, if there is resistance, it means at least one of you isn't doing "aiki".

Therefore, there is no need for resistance training in aiki, the absence of resistance is aiki itself.

Which vaguely echos the words of Chogyam Trungpa... there is no need to struggle for freedom; the absence of struggle is in itself freedom.

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#411290 - 11/11/08 08:47 AM Re: Should resistent randori be introduced? [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
But how does one learn that perfect unison against someone that does not wish it to be? This seems to assume quite a bit of perfection in technique. Or perhaps aiki people assume they will only ever encounter other aiki people?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#411291 - 11/11/08 12:02 PM Re: Should resistent randori be introduced? [Re: MattJ]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
Now we're moving into 'what is your definition of resistance?' territory. My old JJJ teacher always used to say don't just let tori throw you; if he hasn't taken your balance just stay planted. That was his definition of 'resistance'. Mine would be stay planted but also punch, kick, anything to gain the upper hand. Whether it's aikido vs aikido or karate vs karate, we're all fighting within certain rules and therefore can only provide a certain amount / type of resistance... apart from MMA. OK, no groin shots and eye gouges etc but pretty much anything goes.

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#411292 - 11/11/08 10:09 PM Re: Should resistent randori be introduced? [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

But how does one learn that perfect unison against someone that does not wish it to be? This seems to assume quite a bit of perfection in technique. Or perhaps aiki people assume they will only ever encounter other aiki people?


To the extent that certain things can be "learnt" is largely dependent on the individual. OTOH, some people keep banging their heads against brick walls and never ever learn...

In that regard, it's not so much perfection of technique as it is perfection of character. Emptying one's cup first tends to help...

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#411293 - 11/12/08 12:08 AM Re: Should resistent randori be introduced? [Re: eyrie]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Just a thought.
Even my first Aikido sensei taught that when it was your turn to be uke you should attack with intent. You are not helping nage to learn if you just whiff at them. That sounds like "resistance" to me.

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#411294 - 11/12/08 01:36 AM Re: Should resistent randori be introduced? [Re: iaibear]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
There's intent and there's intent... learning to read another person's intent is certainly a big part of it.

It's like training a dog. Dogs, and animals, in general, are far more cognizant of our intent, even if they can't communicate in a way that we humans can understand. People, OTOH, are a totally different ball game.

Teaching a dog to perform all manner of tricks, is like teaching a child the difference between good behaviour and bad behaviour.

Beating a dog doesn't make it understand what it's supposed to do... or not do... and neither does beating a child.... they only remember the beating and not the lesson.

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