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#410854 - 11/22/08 09:29 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Mr_Moogle Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 63
Ames: "1. In Higaonna's book about the history of Goju, he meantions that Miyagi attempted to insert free sparring into the Goju curriculum. The fact that he even had to do this pretty much proves that this kind of sparring was not taught by his teacher, Kanryo Higashionna. Miyagi felt that too many students injured themselves, and he removed from the curriculum."

Quoting from this link, http://www.gojuryu.cz/?p=203&lang=cs

"1. What is your feeling about tournament karate & cross training in other martial arts?
EM For the past several years I have read magazine articles about tournament (Shiai) karate. Miyagi Sensei and I both predicted that in order to promote karate we must hold tournaments. I have been doing karate for over 60 years. When I began karate there was no protective gear. The protective gear will allow a student to further his kumite techniques. Miyagi Chojun also recommend hojo-undo to strengthen our bodies and all other arts and sports to improve our health. He told us that we should not just train in karate but to try other arts such as Judo and Kendo. If your body is strong from training in other arts and hojo- undo you will be able to withstand any strikes or kicks to your body. In the same respect you will be able to stop an attacker with one punch or kick."

This entire interview may be controversial among IOGKF members. There is a possibility that Morio Higaonna's book may not necessarily be entirely correct.

This quote suggests that Miyagi's class did in fact have sparring for a good amount of time and remained that way. If not, at the very least it was highly recommended for an addition if it ever became safer. So yes, karate (referring to goju) did have its own sparring and yes, it was most probably free.

From this website, http://www.karyimskaratedo.com/aboutgoju.htm

There is a quote stating:
"Higashionna's sparring was described as 'light with extraordinary footwork and low, fast kicks."

Also take into account that crime rate in Okinawa and globally in general was higher in the past, and streetfighting/self defense was needed in larger quantities. Also the events of Tegumi would've also covered some sparring prospects.

Now as for the "other" things, according to http://www.thepunchingbags.com/ they state the following:
"Since the beginning of written military history punching bags have been used for training in the martial arts. Other than punching bags Asian martial arts used other padded training equipment like punching bags called the Chinese mook jong and the Okinawan makiwara."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punching_bag also mentions something similar:
"Punching bags have been used in martial arts and swordplay for as long as there has been a written history of military training.[1] Similar apparatus in Asian martial arts include the Okinawan makiwara and the Chinese mook jong, which may have padded striking surfaces attached to them."

The heavy bag has been in existence since there has been written history of military training. Karate did have a lot of influence from China, as well as its own military history.

So earlier forms of padded training equipment, and more specifically the heavy bag was used. There should be anecdotal evidence among karateka here and their own information. I mean, even in kung fu and karate movies (with an "old day" storyline) as well, they show earlier forms of the heavy bag.

So chances are, at the very least the heavy bag (if you do not consider focus mitts, kicking shields and impact pads as a "child" or "successor" of some kind to the makiwara pads and mook jong) was a part of the Chinese and okinawan arts outside of boxing influence.


Edited by Mr_Moogle (11/22/08 09:37 AM)
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#410855 - 11/22/08 04:30 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Mr_Moogle]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

This quote suggests that Miyagi's class did in fact have sparring for a good amount of time and remained that way. If not, at the very least it was highly recommended for an addition if it ever became safer. So yes, karate (referring to goju) did have its own sparring and yes, it was most probably free.





I don't get that at all from the quote you posted, nor from the interview you linked to. I've read that interview before, and read IOGKF's reply to it. I'm not interested in the politics, though, so I won't even touch that.

The simple fact is that the Jundokan under Miyazato did not practice Jiyu Waza, although some dojo's linked to the orgainization did/do. Based on that, it would be rather strange for Miyazato to suggest that there is historical precedent for something they do not do.

In the quote you post I see only that Miyazato suggesting that there was not adquetate protective gear to engage in free sparring at the time. I'm aware that Miyagi encouraged his students to crosstrain in Kendo and Judo, largely because they are arts where full contact with less chance of injury remains possible.

I don't see anything here that contradicts Higaonna's statment that free sparring was practiced, but do to injuries, the practice was stopped. Neither do I see Miyazato directly state that Jiyu Waza was a major part of the Goju curriculum. Again, it wouldn't make sense for him to say this, because the Jundokan didn't practice it.

So, I don't really see how you are coming up with the thesis that:

Quote:

yes, karate (referring to goju) did have its own sparring and yes, it was most probably free .





I agree with the first part. That karate had it's own sparring methods there can be no doubt. But I see no reason, and no evidence in any of the article you linked to, to suggest that Higaonna's statement was not factual. The fact is, is that what Miyazato DOES say is that:

Quote:

When I began karate there was no protective gear. The protective gear will allow a student to further his kumite techniques.




This seems to imply that Miyazato feels that at one time full contact free sparring was simply not possible, given the lack of proper protective equipment.

Quote:

There is a quote stating:
"Higashionna's sparring was described as 'light with extraordinary footwork and low, fast kicks."





Again, I see nothing, either in that quote, or the page you have linked to, to suggest that this was free/knockdown sparring. As a matter of fact, the quote specifically says it was "light" sparring. Certainly this, too, is not enough evidence to prove that Higaonna was wrong in his statements.

Quote:

Also take into account that crime rate in Okinawa and globally in general was higher in the past, and streetfighting/self defense was needed in larger quantities.




That's true (that the crime rate was higher). But medical care in Okinawa at this time was almost nonexistent. One would be taking a major risk by practicing free sparring without protective equipment.

In Europe at this time, most likely the only reason why boxers sparred/ fought full contact was because they were prize fights, and they were getting paid to fight in this way. If it wasn't for the money, the physical risk just wouldn't be worth it.

Again, I don't really see a reason as to why full contact practice would have naturally evolved under the conditions you speak of.

Quote:

Also the events of Tegumi would've also covered some sparring prospects.





Tegumi was native Okinaway grappling/wrestling. Yes, prationers of Tegumi would have been involved in free grappling. We can say from the evidence availible that there was no striking during these matches.

Further, equating Tegumi free grappling with Karate is tenuous at best. Yes, Tegumi had an impact on the kata (most likely), but that is largely irrelevent to the percussive elements of karate (what this thread is about).

Many samurai in pre-Meiji Japan practiced Sumo. Yet their jujutsu was (mostly) not taught or practiced by free sparring methods. This is roughly analagous to the situation of Tegumi and Karate.

Quote:

Now as for the "other" things, according to http://www.thepunchingbags.com/ they state the following:
"Since the beginning of written military history punching bags have been used for training in the martial arts. Other than punching bags Asian martial arts used other padded training equipment like punching bags called the Chinese mook jong and the Okinawan makiwara."





Again, you'll need to provide a more relevent source. I see nothing here that says that Okinawan Karate tradionally practiced with heavy bags. I am aware that they used makiwara. Makiwara and a boxing heavy bag are two diffirent objects, used for two diffirent purposes. The quote you used makes no mention of Okinawan Karate using heavy bags.

Perhaps you did not read my post (and the one that started this discussion on equipment). But in it, I referenced Iaian Aberthey, who said:

Quote:

I would class myself as a "traditional karateka," and yet as a regular part of my training I hit a punch bag, jump rope and spar using boxing gloves - as I'm sure many of those reading this article do also. The western art of boxing has had a huge influence on all the martial arts.




That was the context of my statment regarding heavy bags. Not whether or not Okinawans had their own striking objects or not. It is irrelevent to my main concern; that being boxing has had a large influence on Karate practice, and, as evidence of this, we need look no further than the heavy bag that hangs in most tradional dojo, and isn't given a second thought.

Quote:

Punching bags have been used in martial arts and swordplay for as long as there has been a written history of military training.[1] Similar apparatus in Asian martial arts include the Okinawan makiwara and the Chinese mook jong, which may have padded striking surfaces attached to them."





Again, I see nothing there that suggests that Okinawan's used a heavy bag before a boxing influence. Both the makiwara, and the mook jung are only similar in that they objects that the trainee is meant to hit. They are diffirent devices, and provide diffirent skill devolpment. If this were not true, then why would karate dojo even bother with a heavy bag if a makiwara is present? A makiwara and heavy are about as similar as a heavy bag and speed bag. Not very.

One can easily see that these devices are each used to develop diffirent skill sets:

Heavy bag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYwGAlmPJMU
Maikwara:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YCMS1bkIwg
Mook Jung:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k

Quote:

The heavy bag has been in existence since there has been written history of military training. Karate did have a lot of influence from China, as well as its own military history.





You have yet to provide evidence that Chinese fighters did use a heavy bag. Further, if they did, there is still zero evidence that Okinawans used them. Chinese fighters engaged in many practices which are not present in Okinawan Karate.

Quote:

So earlier forms of padded training equipment, and more specifically the heavy bag was used.




Yes, the heavy bag was used in Western martial arts. You have yet to show that the heavy bag was used in Okinawa.

Quote:

There should be anecdotal evidence among karateka here and their own information.




I doubt there are many karateka here who practiced pre WWII, on Okinawa.

Quote:

I mean, even in kung fu and karate movies (with an "old day" storyline) as well, they show earlier forms of the heavy bag.





And that's precisely why you shouldn't use a historical movie to validate any historical claim. They are often wrong, or presenting poor information. For example, many of the 'kung fu' fighters in those movies are actually practising hapkido. They are from accurate representations of anything.

Quote:

So chances are, at the very least the heavy bag (if you do not consider focus mitts, kicking shields and impact pads as a "child" or "successor" of some kind to the makiwara pads and mook jong) was a part of the Chinese and okinawan arts outside of boxing influence.




No, not at all. You'll have to actually provide some evidence of a heavy bag being used in Okinawa prior to a time when boxing influence may have been felt before we could say this. So far, I see none.

Please note the reference provided for the statement "Punching bags have been used in martial arts and swordplay for as long as there has been a written history of military training," comes from a book about boxing, not Chinese martial arts.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/22/08 04:45 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410856 - 11/22/08 10:52 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Neko456]
Mr_Moogle Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 63
The question states: "Who has the best STRIKES Karate or Boxing?"

The keyword here is strikes, i.e. striking techniques.

Footwork isn't/aren't strikes.
Shadow boxing isn't/aren't strikes.
Training methods isn't/aren't strikes.

If you want to discuss footwork and so on and relate it back to strikes, the question most appropriate would be something like: "Who has the best APPROACH or STYLE to/for striking?" Then you can add in factors such as footwork, training methods, sparring, supplementary training, etc.

However from the original question: "Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing?" we must look at the keyword, i.e. strikes. Just plain striking techniques.

In this case, versatility of strikes and the form of these strikes (not usage, as that is approach/style) are the main factors to compare.

Therefore, I believe Karate has the best strikes due to their sheer versatility, and that some of the strikes in Karate do overlap with Boxing (and yes, in this way, Kung Fu would have better strikes than Karate).

If you want a fair comparison, simply get a Karate practitioner who trains, spars and develops like a Boxer, only that the striking techniques are from a Karate curriculum, then chances are the Karate practitioner would have the better strikes.


Edited by Mr_Moogle (11/22/08 10:55 PM)
_________________________
Speed, power, technique and mentality... They are the four aspects of fighting...

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#410857 - 11/22/08 11:56 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Mr_Moogle]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
On the equipment debate, it should be noted that funakoshi writes in karatedo kyohan, that any affordable striking target could be used and makiwara are only recommended because of the availability of the materials.

There is no magic or behind the use of either makiwara (of which there are hanging varieties) or heavy bags, and while I'm sure modern companies may put work into the design of their bags, the aim behind them was just to have something to hit. In that respect there is no difference in the choice of tool being used as the important fact is that there was a tool being used.
That the heavy bag is used differently speaks to the style of fighting that developed around it, i,e, boxing.

For the most part Ames we agree, but boxing really isn't the progenitor of all things logical in MA. A leaf out of your book. It only makes sense for there to have been free sparring in karate originally as karate is a fighting art and you can't learn fighting without fighting. In an interview Hohan Soken noted that karate training was risky in the old days because a broken leg or arm could cost someone their livelyhood, implying that such things could occur from karate practice. I've never known someone to break a leg doing a kata.

Also no one mentioned knockdown sparring, don't go moving the goal posts. knockdown sparring without gloves is a fight. Since karateka of old belived their strikes could kill it is highly unlikely they engaged in full contact matches for training.

If karate did not spar on Okinawa it most certainly did on Japan, and there is no reason to believe that boxing played any part. Far more likely youthful exuberance and testosterone, perhaps even Judo, but not likely boxing.
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#410858 - 11/23/08 08:17 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
As for goju and sparring. Miyagi described in his gaisetsu that karate training consists out off: warm-up, basic kata training (sanchin/naifanchin/tensho), supplementary training (breathing exercises, weight lifting okinawan style, stretching), classical kata, kumite renshu (putting in practice of kata technique, sparring drills). There is no mention of free sparring. Morio Higaonna talks about his experiment around 1934-1935 and alo Eiichi Miyazato has made reference to it but they also mention he stopped it because of too many injuries. Gogen Yamaguchi was the first to incorporate it as a karate training exercise and he called it jiyu kumite. It would eventually lead to the first competition formats at universities in the 1940ies and 1950ies. Due to the tactics of goju, trying to drop, throw, disbalance in short range fighting, the goju-fighters were top at these contests at that time. The format later changed to ippon kumite of the JKA where most of these tactics were abandoned.
For as far as I know, the term iri kumi was not known before 1986.

But there are also testimonies about private fighting practice where senior students would engage in free form of fighting, with various levels of contact. And there was always Naha-city where there was no problem picking a fight.
But these practices were not common to most karate practitioners.

As for heavy bag training or makiwara etc..;. The Chinese and Okinawans use any tool available. Bags with sand were used in the old days to hit in combinations. Even nowadays they kick and hit tires, use inner tires to build strength in pulling exercises. Hit or kick poles hanging on ropes etc... They use whats around. Nowadays heavy bag is incorporated by some as training tool. We do not use it regulary, I rather have students use holding big pads to work combinations while moving.

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#410859 - 11/23/08 01:29 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Mr_Moogle]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

However from the original question: "Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing?" we must look at the keyword, i.e. strikes. Just plain striking techniques.





You'll have to define what you mean precisely by "Just plain striking techniques."

Because it seems that you are suggesting that we need to isolate the actual technique away from its intended use. The question clearly asks who has the 'better' strikes, not who has 'more' of them. 'Better' implies more of an ability to actually use the strikes for their intended purpose. The very definition of striking states:
Quote:

to aim and usually deliver a blow , stroke, or thrust (as with the hand, a weapon, or a tool)




Quote:

If you want to discuss footwork and so on and relate it back to strikes, the question most appropriate would be something like: "Who has the best APPROACH or STYLE to/for striking?" Then you can add in factors such as footwork, training methods, sparring, supplementary training, etc.





I disagree. The original poster qualified his question, and made it clear that he wasn't only talking about amount of strikes. Going back to that original post, it is clear that he is indeed talking about who has the ability to best deliver the strike to the target (which, after all, is the purpose of striking to begin with). So, it is really quite clear that we have to look at striking inclusive of the training method that each style uses. It is through the training method and sparring that we can best ascertain who actually has the ability to perform 'striking'; not as a abstract gesture of hitting air, or a myriad of hypothetical techniques, but rather as 'who has the best ability to strike', i.e. who can actually perform the strikes best in the way intended.

Quote:

In this case, versatility of strikes and the form of these strikes (not usage, as that is approach/style) are the main factors to compare.




To suggest that the question would best be answered by strikes being abstracted from their purpose, is faulty. As I've said before, the best method of striking is the one that teaches the student to deliver the most amount of strikes the most amount of times to the intended target.

Reducing strikes to abstract 'versitility', gets us no closer to answering the original question.

Again, a strike is (see definition) is not the abstract movement of the arm, leg, etc., but the actual delivering of blows. So, the "main factors to compare" is not mere versitility, but the ability to actually pragmatically use this perceived versitility.

Quote:


If you want a fair comparison, simply get a Karate practitioner who trains, spars and develops like a Boxer, only that the striking techniques are from a Karate curriculum, then chances are the Karate practitioner would have the better strikes.




But then you are only arbitraily calling it 'karate' aren't you? The art you speak of has just as much boxing as karate in it. As a matter of fact, something like what you suggest has already been done, and the art which resulted is called kickBOXING.

Shonuff:
Quote:

On the equipment debate, it should be noted that funakoshi writes in karatedo kyohan, that any affordable striking target could be used and makiwara are only recommended because of the availability of the materials.

There is no magic or behind the use of either makiwara (of which there are hanging varieties) or heavy bags, and while [...]the aim behind them was just to have something to hit.






As I've said, I agree that karate uses it's own objects to practice striking. But, as I've said, there is a definite difference in the intended learning outcome between, say, a makiwara and a heavy bag, just as there is difference in the hoped for learning outcome of the boxers heavy bag training and his speed bag practice. Each 'striking object' gives way to a different manner of practice, and thus a different skill set developed.

Quote:

For the most part Ames we agree, but boxing really isn't the progenitor of all things logical in MA




I certainly agree with you. Indeed the modern ruleset of boxing has made some aspects illogical for the purpose of self defence; the rules regarding the clinch being an example.

Quote:

It only makes sense for there to have been free sparring in karate originally as karate is a fighting art and you can't learn fighting without fighting




I agree very much with the last part of this statement ("you can't learn fighting without fighting"). But I don't think that it "only makes sense for there to have been free sparring" in karate. The evidence for this assumption just isn't there. Given the time period, it makes a lot more sense for there NOT to be sparring, due to the inavailibility of medical services and protective gear. If you look at mainland Japan, you'll see a similar situation with Koryu jujutsu: an art intended for real combat, but, largely for the reasons I've stated, didn't spar.

Quote:

In an interview Hohan Soken noted that karate training was risky in the old days because a broken leg or arm could cost someone their livelyhood, implying that such things could occur from karate practice. I've never known someone to break a leg doing a kata.





This is interesting, and does certainly imply that there was more than just kata going on, of which I am certain. But, again, I see no evidence that it was free sparring being practiced. I'm sure injuries did happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that free sparring was involved. As an example, I've seen people sustain pretty major injury during compliant Aikido practice.

Quote:

Also no one mentioned knockdown sparring, don't go moving the goal posts.




I did. If you look back at my prior posts I made it clear that this is the only type of sparring I was talking about, as this is the type of sparring that is practiced in boxing.

Quote:

knockdown sparring without gloves is a fight.




Definately! That's why I doubt that it was practiced on Okinawa before proper gear could be had. Again, I feel that the only reason this type of sparring was practiced in boxing before decent gear became availible, was due to the monetary gain possible in such practice. That was really the only reason to risk the major, often fatal, injuries that could occur.

Quote:

Since karateka of old belived their strikes could kill it is highly unlikely they engaged in full contact matches for training.





Exactly!

As I've said, that karate had its own sparring methods, there can be no doubt...but as to that being full contact free sparring, I'm doubtful, mostly for the reasons you gave. If you look back at my posts, you'll see that that is precisely all I have been saying.

Quote:

If karate did not spar on Okinawa it most certainly did on Japan, and there is no reason to believe that boxing played any part.




Well, now we really aren't talking about tradional karate. Which is fine of course, but remember that this was all I was initially speaking to in my early posts on this thread.

Also, Ohtsuka, an early Shotokan practioner, and one of the pioneers of the free sparring, was influenced partially by boxing.

Quote:

Far more likely youthful exuberance and testosterone, perhaps even Judo, but not likely boxing.





I agree that Judo and Kendo most likely had a significantly larger effect on the kumite methods that were developed for Japanese karate, which is one of the reasons that it is so diffirent.

Do keep in mind though, that in a roundabout way a Western influence can still be established. The pedagogy of Judo was developed with a strong Western combat sport influence, and this influece was felt on most subsequent modern Japanese arts. This pedagogy was the major change Kano made to tradional Japanese arts.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/23/08 01:38 PM)
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#410860 - 11/25/08 06:40 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Gradually as common ground is found the posts get shorter.

Quote:

'Better' implies more of an ability to actually use the strikes for their intended purpose.




No, because this can only ever be down to the fighter. You cannot logically claim an art is better at using strikes as it is not a conscious being. I can quite accept that in general boxing produces a lot more people who are comfortable fighting for real than karate (even though I say this I realise it is anecdotal and may not be true), and that this is due to the training methods. But as I said, training methods change and vary from place to place and so cannot be used as any kind of accurate judge of an art.

Even if we agree that karate's best training methods were stolen from boxing, that still doesn't answer the question who has the better strikes, all it means is we are able to consider the striking techniques on a more even playing field as both are being trained in the same way (think scientific method, eliminating variables for a true comparison..).

Example: who has better kicks, Taekwondo school A who train for show, or B who train for fighting? IMO their kicks are the same, B has more combative (so better for this dicsussion) training, but their techniques are the same. I wouldn't be surprised if the extra athleticism, speed and flexibility of school A's students had them winning half the fights against school B in a knockdown match. The fight is down to the fighter.

Quote:


Do keep in mind though, that in a roundabout way a Western influence can still be established. The pedagogy of Judo was developed with a strong Western combat sport influence, and this influece was felt on most subsequent modern Japanese arts. This pedagogy was the major change Kano made to tradional Japanese arts.




Interesting. I don't know a whole lot about Judo's origins, but nothing I've read suggests this. What influences are you talking about and how did they affect Kano's developments? What's your source?
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#410861 - 11/25/08 10:17 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Kravinatrix]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

If its whatever works then it has no formal style and cannot be considered a style since it uses, "anything that works" this is excuse for trying to say Karate doesn't suck by saying things like no thats just for training, we dont do it that way, then why the hell train like that?

Chambering punches is done in most Karate classes, I used to attend one. Its a pointless way of training if you dont fight that way, thats why boxing is alot better for punches.

If you fail to define what Karate actually is then this argument is completely pointless. If you look at karate as unrestricted then you could put boxing techniques in there and still call it Karate.
This thread is pointless and completely stupid.




Gotta say, easily one of the worst, most mis informed posts I've seen in a long time.

Your comments betray your ignorance of Karate, how it is trained and how it's applied.

Do yourself a favor and stop now.

Dan has taken the time, and decades of training and study, posted numerous articles and videos on different aspects of Karate and how it is trained and applied.

Your reponse..."Karate Sucks, if they don't chamber when they punch then it's not Karate, I know I have taken a few classes."

You have a nickel brain and a five dollars attitude.

I love your "that's why Boxing has better punches"....really that's the reason? How? Why? Because Boxing doesn't chamber? They Chamber all the time! They chamber, they load sometimes they spin their arm like popeye!

Maybe that's why they have better punches, they always eat their spinich....that's must be the secret.
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#410862 - 11/25/08 01:43 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Quote:

'Better' implies more of an ability to actually use the strikes for their intended purpose.





No, because this can only ever be down to the fighter. You cannot logically claim an art is better at using strikes as it is not a conscious being.





Actually in this case I was speaking to Mr.Moyer's ascertion that the original question had nothing to with training methods, sparring etc. My point was that saying 'better striking' is different than 'more striking techniques'. In other words, in order to even begin to answer the question we have to look at strike in thier totality, not just air punching, or hypothetical strikes that are never 'proven' in setting which approximates actual street combat.

Quote:

You cannot logically claim an art is better at using strikes as it is not a conscious being.




I am in full agreement that a lot of it comes down to the practioner on many levels (will, dicipline, understanding of the art, etc.). But what I've been trying to do is deal with those things that aren't as subjective.

Quote:

I can quite accept that in general boxing produces a lot more people who are comfortable fighting for real than karate (even though I say this I realise it is anecdotal and may not be true), and that this is due to the training methods.




This has been my argument from the beginning. The reason why I think boxing, on average, produces better strikers is due to the training methods. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with karate, only something wrong with the way so many dojo's train it. Karate can be a highly functional art, but it must be trained towards that goal.

Quote:

Even if we agree that karate's best training methods were stolen from boxing, that still doesn't answer the question who has the better strikes, all it means is we are able to consider the striking techniques on a more even playing field as both are being trained in the same way (think scientific method, eliminating variables for a true comparison..).





Again, as I've said, if karate is trained toward functional skill (think Ashihara), then the kind of karate would be, on average, the better striking system because it has more possibilities. The key to this, however, is that the training in the other 'weapons' is functional, alive training.

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Example: who has better kicks, Taekwondo school A who train for show, or B who train for fighting? IMO their kicks are the same, B has more combative (so better for this dicsussion) training, but their techniques are the same. I wouldn't be surprised if the extra athleticism, speed and flexibility of school A's students had them winning half the fights against school B in a knockdown match. The fight is down to the fighter.





Personally, I don't think so. Often once these people who train for 'show' actually get hit hard for the first time, they tend to 'seize up'.

Quote:

Interesting. I don't know a whole lot about Judo's origins, but nothing I've read suggests this. What influences are you talking about and how did they affect Kano's developments? What's your source?




I've read this in a variety of different places, I recall Draeger writing about it, and reading about it in Journal of Asian Martial Arts (sadly, I lost them all during a move). Here is an okay article on the subject:

http://www.bstkd.com/JudoHistory/HistorySix.htm
And some quotes from that article:

"The goal of education, in general, was different under Western concepts than it had been under the Shogun. Under the Shogun, education was a method of control and indoctrination; rather to prevent than to promote discovery."


"Kano, becoming an educator, saw the sport element, and knew that it suggested something far more important for martial arts, and for the people in general, than mere self-defense."

"This was a revolution because the Japanese had no concept of sport.(6) At the same time that Kano brought British sport concepts to Japan, he sought to combine these concepts with distinctly Japanese elements."

* * *

I would also like to reiterate here, that the only reason I feel that boxing is currently the better system for learning how to strike, is because of its more 'alive' training methods. This is a general statement, and certainly there are exceptions where karate is trained in just an alive manner as boxing is. However, the question was a general one, and so my answer too is general.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410863 - 11/25/08 02:34 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Kimo2007]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Lorton, VA
Everyone:

This thread has gone on for a long time, and has been fairly constructive. That's why it's still here. For now.

Let's not have it devolve into petty insults or art-bashing. Thank you.

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