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#410774 - 11/14/08 02:25 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
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Stormy -



Quote:

An evolutionary adaption isnt necessairly good either, it may not effect the species and their ability to survive or may negatively impact their ability to survive, it's a somewhat blind process. They may evolve and not really be any "fitter" just different, and just happen to survive and outlast other forms for other reasons.




An evolutionary adaptation is better by definition. Non-successful mutations will result in extinction. I think you are confusing mutation with evolution. Things do not evolve unsuccessfully - they die.


Edited by MattJ (11/14/08 02:25 PM)
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#410775 - 11/14/08 02:27 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

The opinion that Kata useless for developing functional skill is valid.




The opinion that there other ways to train the same thing, is valid. To say Kata is useless to train functional skill in not valid.

I (keeping with my theme of "only what I have seen firsthand") have an example.

Bob, I will call him came from another school and while he had decent sparring skills, he had bad footwork, in particular his rear foot was almost always turned away out of the fight, a small detail maybe, but an important one. It cost him explosion forward or offline, and whenever he moved he would have to move twice, costing him time and to a good fighter, a telegraph.

He was given a Kata to do, one that among other things required proper footwork. After a while, when he was somewhat proficient, he began sparring and was told to spar "within the Kata". He began to move quite differently and more effectively.

So that would be a direct functional skill, applied directly to fighting.

BUT THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO TRAIN FOOTWORK KIMO!!!! ( I know you are thinking)

Well, that was only one aspect of the Kata that applied to fighting. There were many others, kind of like a full body workout builds more then one muscle group at a time.

So John, we both know you will never, ever even under pain of death do a Kata...but that does not mean it does not have value...remember different roads to the mountain top

Quote:

Or, just put the blinders on without any critical thought?




Well yes, if everyone would stop back talking me and just accept my wisdom as gospel, the world be a better place...
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#410776 - 11/14/08 02:34 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: MattJ]
Stormdragon Offline
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Loc: Salem, OR
Quote:

Stormy -



Quote:

An evolutionary adaption isnt necessairly good either, it may not effect the species and their ability to survive or may negatively impact their ability to survive, it's a somewhat blind process. They may evolve and not really be any "fitter" just different, and just happen to survive and outlast other forms for other reasons.




An evolutionary adaptation is better by definition. Non-successful mutations will result in extinction. I think you are confusing mutation with evolution. Things do not evolve unsuccessfully - they die.




Coincidently I've been reading a lot on this lately and it turns out, contrary to what I used to think, that evolution is based almost entirely on mutations. Thats really the only thing that actually adds genetic information. It can be good, making the species better able to survive, it could be bad which generally does what you say and makes them all die (or they may live anyway for other reasons-for example now people who never would've survived in the past due to odd little mutations are surviving and passing on their genetics because other people help them, medical advances, etc.) or it may be neutral and not really change anything. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIC1Mutations.shtml

That is, however, how evolution works, a species mutates, and if that mutation increasesit's chances of procreation thus survival, it passes that new genetic info on, and then the next line mutates some more and either dies or procreates due to enhanced survvial, and so on till we have multiple species. http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/M/Mutation_and_Evolution.html


Edited by Stormdragon (11/14/08 02:39 PM)
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#410777 - 11/14/08 02:52 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
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I did mean to write "I think you are confusing mutation with adaptation," not evolution. You are correct that evolution is driven by mutation. Apologies for my lack of clarity.
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#410778 - 11/14/08 03:06 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: MattJ]
Stormdragon Offline
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Loc: Salem, OR
No problem. How do you start out comparing strikes in Karate and Boxing and end up on evolution? lol MAJOR tangent
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#410779 - 11/15/08 12:11 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
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Loc: London, UK
I've only paid a little attention to this thread but I thought that as I have an opinion I may as well share it.

The Karate I have learned has better strikes than the boxing I have learned. The Karate has all the strikes present in boxing. Then it adds a range of others and all of them are handed down with much more versatility built into their philosophy of application. The boxing I learned was a ring sport and it's strikes were simple. I've seen nothing to convince me that boxing is anything other than a ring sport.

Boxing is much easier to learn as their is much less of it. Everything that is boxing is Karate, not everything that is Karate is boxing.
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#410780 - 11/15/08 12:40 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
Stormdragon Offline
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Actually, why does everyone say karate has what boxing has? Karate may have soem similar stuff, kind of, and a lot of good techniques but structurally it's very different and looks nothing like Karate. The foot work and evasive movements are vastly different from Karate. What Karate fighter looks like Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Jack Dempsey, etc.?
Shonuff-Boxing has all the hand techniques you really need, and works fine when combined with grappling, and Muay Thai or something. Karate has some great stuff that boxing doesn't but boxing can work great in a street altercation as long as you have tools for all ranges instead of just boxing. Using only boxing for your hand techniques and striking defense is perfectly ok and many people do it and can fight just fine. Obviously if you train PURELY in boxing you'll be at a disadvantage. It is what it is. The simplicity is actually not a bad thing at all, and it's deceptively simply, there are major nuances in boxing.
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#410781 - 11/15/08 04:22 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: BrianS]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

just curious, have you studied karate or kata training methods?




Hey, Brian, just a very little. Certainly not in a great deal of depth. As I said earlier, I tried out some Goju Ryu (at two dojo's), some Uechi, and some Shotokan. In one of the Goju places I tried, the class seemed to be only me and about six blackbelts. I watched what they were doing, in terms of kata extraction, and didn't think much of it. All in all, my judgements on kata are more based on the results I've seen from it's study, rather than a formal study itself.

Of course, I'm assuming that we are talking about 'kata' in the karate sense of solo kata. In terms of kata in a jujutsu sense, I've done a fairly large amount of that.

I don't see kata as useless. I do think that there are much better training methods that give quicker results. I'm not completly 'anti-kata'. I think that for a certain kind of person, it's a valid way to learn self defence (assuming that sparring and applications are done with full resistence and inderminate reactions from the receiver of the technique). In the end, I don't adhere to the 'all arts are equal, it's up to user' camp though. I think that arts have diffirent things to teach, and some do somethings better than others. In the case of kata-based arts, I think self defence and sparring skill takes along time to arrive at. But someone might have diffirent training goals in mind, so more power to them. In the end, some people find boxing 'too simple' and therefore won't bother going to class or practicing...so if that person will go to karate class, then that is the obvious choice.

However, this thread was about which art has better striking, and I firmly believe that the evidence points towards boxing as being generally better in that regard. And I do think that the major reason for that is the training methods.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/15/08 04:35 AM)
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#410782 - 11/15/08 08:08 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
In response to what Chris said, I'll add that I am not anti-karate, or anti-kata. In fact, you may be surprised to hear my thoughts about karate for self-defense. I just come here to chat and have a healthy discourse about martial arts. I get to read the perspectives of different people and I respect everyone's views. While such talk doesn't always change my opinion on things, it always helps to see others points of view. All of those different perspectives matter because they give us sight of the bigger picture.

While discussing different topics, we often don't get a chance to speak but on a narrow choice of things (even though the threads themselves appear to meander all over the place). This is great in itself however because within each thread we hammer on, lies the seeds for countless other threads and discussions.

As I mentioned, some may find it interesting to hear my opinions on karate for self-defense. Those opinions differ somewhat on my thoughts about karate for fighting (again, that doesn't mean that I'm saying karate guys can't "fight"...these are merely general statements).

So, what's the difference between self-defense and fighting? Its just my opinion that in fighting, one engages the enemy (eliminate space) and in self-defense, one disengages the enemy (create space). For self-defense, it's my opinion that "fighting" the enemy is not always a wise thing to do. But there again, a well-rounded person should be able to do BOTH, because at times you could find yourselves within a fight whether you wanted it or not.

The thing is, this topic has rarely been broached (although I'm sure that people have mentioned it at times that I haven't been aware of). At least, no one has ever asked me what I thought about it.

Make no mistake, there is a huge difference between sudden violence and "sport" fighting. Like Matt Jansson has alluded to however, it's not a "mechanical" difference, so much as it is one of strategy and choice of tactics employed. Remember folks, I'm not against any of you nor your choice of training methods. Lets keep things in perspective and realize that this place is just a big cyber playground. Don't get frustrated...just keep playing.

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#410783 - 11/15/08 12:55 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Actually, why does everyone say karate has what boxing has?




Because it does.

Quote:

Karate may have soem similar stuff, kind of, and a lot of good techniques but structurally it's very different and looks nothing like Karate. The foot work and evasive movements are vastly different from Karate. What Karate fighter looks like Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Jack Dempsey, etc.?




Well I was always told I had resembelance to Ali when I was younger. Now I'm older they say George Foreman.
Firstly, I qualified my post by pointing out that I'm speaking of the boxing I was taught and the karate I was taught.

That subtle nuance was placed to remind everyone that this whole discussion is subjective. I feel that most of the differences you speak of are products of the rules of the two sports and the fact that to get boxing from karate you have to strip karate of most of its tools. SO of course they look different in their natural forms; Karate is boxing + xy and z. Also I simply disagree about the footwork.

Quote:

Shonuff-Boxing has all the hand techniques you really need, and works fine when combined with grappling, and Muay Thai or something.




I never said it didn't, nor did I make any comment about it's effectiveness, although if it needs all that cross training as you say it does it seems it would make more sense to find a more rounded system.
The question was which had better strikes. In some situations an elbow will be better suited than a punch. Since karate has boxings punches but boxing lacks karate's elbows etc Karate has the better strikes.

Quote:

Karate has some great stuff that boxing doesn't but boxing can work great in a street altercation as long as you have tools for all ranges instead of just boxing. Using only boxing for your hand techniques and striking defense is perfectly ok and many people do it and can fight just fine.




I made not one criticism of boxers fighting ability or boxings validity as a fighting style.

Quote:

Obviously if you train PURELY in boxing you'll be at a disadvantage. It is what it is. The simplicity is actually not a bad thing at all, and it's deceptively simply, there are major nuances in boxing.




I never said simplicity was a bad thing either, I think it's great, Karate still has better strikes.
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