FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 34 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
old1, Leonar, ManLar, Vimido, raya
22925 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 4
Ronin1966 3
Victor Smith 1
swordy 1
AndyLA 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Martial News
by Matakiant
09/23/14 06:42 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
Recent Posts
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by cxt
10/10/14 10:08 AM
The Karate punch
by Ronin1966
10/09/14 03:16 PM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Forum Stats
22925 Members
36 Forums
35582 Topics
432509 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 15 of 25 < 1 2 ... 13 14 15 16 17 ... 24 25 >
Topic Options
#410764 - 11/13/08 03:57 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: CVV]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Right, police force. Thanks for clarifying.
And yes, as I said, kata may play a role in this training, but kumite seems to play a greater one. I think this would be true of any training where results had to be gotten quickly.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#410765 - 11/13/08 03:58 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: medulanet]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Med,

Yep...the article in my opinion is spot on and gets the gist of it. One can also make a point that Oyama's Japanese karate was a formative point to bring technical use to an emphatic point in their tournaments. And from there others were/are trying to branch out to fix holes they felt needed fixing in that study.

The one thing that this brings up is that Kyokushin's requisite use of full contact, even though not as open technically or in the ranges of its combat (grabbing, head shots and grappling) it did allow for quicker access and a quicker learning curve from these Kyokushin players, apparently, to get into more open style tournaments (read full contact kick boxing with MT rules and MMAs) that did allow these things.

Top
#410766 - 11/13/08 04:27 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Right, police force. Thanks for clarifying.
And yes, as I said, kata may play a role in this training, but kumite seems to play a greater one. I think this would be true of any training where results had to be gotten quickly.

--Chris




Little anekdote in history, because you mentioned Chojun Miyagi earlier and that he only experimented with a free form of fighting for one year.

He teached at Naha police station, to the police force, from the death of his teacher in 1915 (or 1917, date unclear) until his death in 1953, with the exception from 1945 till 1949. Only to teach kata ? Or not ?
Here is a video of Taira sensei of the Judokan. He is a former police man and student of Eiichi Miyazato. Eiichi Miyazato took over the position of teacher at the Naha police station after Miagy died. He was also a police officer. Many of Miyagi's student were in the police.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmExIWEglSo

BTW my name is Chris too.

Top
#410767 - 11/13/08 04:34 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: CVV]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
That's good point. I know that those police officers also trained in Judo as well. I'd like to know if the training was changed for the police officers, though.

Nonetheless, all this, though interesting historically, still doesn't really play to what I was saying about that video in question. Those specific karateka aren't inherently better fighters because they are police officers, but because they have prioritised training to emphasize kumite, rather than kata/bunkai. At least this is the way it appears on the video. Further, being shotokan, I'd say it is unlikely that kata bunkai is taught at all.

What those guys were using in that video is punches, kicks and some clinch work. All high percetage stuff that is easily trainable in an alive manner. I didn't see any eyegouges.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/13/08 04:35 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#410768 - 11/13/08 06:04 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Ames,

just curious, have you studied karate or kata training methods?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#410769 - 11/13/08 06:49 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
I am have been watching this thread for awhile now, and to be honest I have found it somewhere between humorous and f****** annoying.

I don't really want to enter the fray, (lol yea right) but I thought I might share some thoughts I received directly from people I respect.

Once in a class with a very well known Karate Man a student asked, who would win in a fight a Karate Man or a boxer?

His answer, it depends on the men. (which really is all that need be said) but then he added, if pressed to answer I'd say on balance, the boxer. (gasp) How can you say that!

Well on balance the boxer spends more time in combat, full speed and hard contact. Most Karate men don't do that, and you should understand a person who fights everyday is gotta be one tough SOB.

He went on to say, eventually as time passes the balance will move to the Karate man, because he spends more time training in the things the boxer hasn't the time nor inclination to concern himself with...but ultimately it depends on the man.

One of my early instructors had a lot to say on the subject of cross discipline training, and which method was the best.

He would say there are many roads to a mountain top, but at the end of the day it all comes down to taking it too the mat. If you can't do it, keep climbing and if you can, keep climbing. (for those who can't extend the metaphor, he meant if you are climbing you are going up, not sideways or down)

So what is my point. Basically there are some of you who seem to think you know the best way to the mountaintop, which is fine to have the opinion. It only makes sense you would train the way you think is best, or at least best for you. But that is not enough, you must disparage the road others take, claim you can simply look at their road, evaluate then dismiss.

Then you go on and on about proof, what would Karate do against a pro boxer etc...but really it's all just you seeing the world through your paradigm.

You want facts, here are some facts. If you train in boxing I guarantee you there is a Karate man who could wipe the ring with you.

If you train Karate I guarantee you there is a Boxer who could wipe the ring with you.

So what does that prove? Nothing other then there are many roads to the mountaintop...it depends on the man..etc.

Now I know that's not enough, some of you will scream Kata is worthless until you are red in the face, even as the Kata man whips you butt around the ring,..Or the Karate man will claim the boxer needs Kata, even as he eats jab after cross and his face looks like Tex Cobb after a few rounds with Larry Holmes.

Personally I have seen this time and time again. Frankly it's exhausting. The only way to prove it to someone is to get them out on the mat or in the ring and show them and even when you do, there will be another Know it all Jacka** walking through the door the next day or next week and it starts all over.

Someone earlier said "Karate guys come in here and they get owned"...well I can tell you of 2 really good boxers who got owned by Karate Guys...saw it happen live. So what.

John likes to mention his valuable time...where exactly are you going and what is the rush? If you can't see immediate benefit you consider it useless? How very American of you.

To say you have no desire to spend your time doing Kata and believe it has no applicable value, is one thing your opinion.

But to call it useless and a complete waste of time, implies you have a certain fighting arts omnipotence that you frankly do not have, none of us do.

I have noticed that on this thread, the experienced Karate men have said very little or nothing, that doesn't surprise me. (with the exception of Dan who I think grew tired of trying to have a reasonable discourse)

This debate is like trying to show you something you have already decided you don't want to see.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

Top
#410770 - 11/13/08 06:56 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Kimo2007]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Very nice post!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#410771 - 11/14/08 06:37 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


John likes to mention his valuable time...where exactly are you going and what is the rush? If you can't see immediate benefit you consider it useless? How very American of you.

To say you have no desire to spend your time doing Kata and believe it has no applicable value, is one thing your opinion.

But to call it useless and a complete waste of time, implies you have a certain fighting arts omnipotence that you frankly do not have, none of us do.





Kimo, take a break and your "anti-condemnation, condemnation".

The opinion that kata useless for developing functional skill is valid. I've explained my reasoning here and elsewhere. It's the way I see it, and that is what internet discussions are for. If people enjoy doing kata, that's great. Whatever floats your boat. I've always said that. But you know man, there are other people want to hear a critical voice on the matter as well. Some are not content to simply drink the koolaid. But if people enjoy it, bottoms up!


Quote:


I have noticed that on this thread, the experienced Karate men have said very little or nothing, that doesn't surprise me. (with the exception of Dan who I think grew tired of trying to have a reasonable discourse)

This debate is like trying to show you something you have already decided you don't want to see.





I don't know about you, but this discourse HAS been reasonable by most standards Kimo. The fact that some people are unwilling or able to bring valid, logical points to the table doesn't make it "unreasonable".

Would it have been better if we all just agreed to agree? Or, just put the blinders on without any critical thought? That seems to be a very popular thing in some traditional martial arts!

Top
#410772 - 11/14/08 06:43 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You have your opinion...'that kata is useless to develop functional skill.' You are also wrong because it is a blanket statement. Along a a continuum, kata does teach functional skills.

Of course, it depends on the context, the training. It's a different way of training, and no one says it is incomplete in and of its' self.

Top
#410773 - 11/14/08 02:08 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i just noticed this and thought i would reply.

"And the problem with "pretending" to train is that you're not really training. Why do I say, "pretending"?"

john, i don't pretend to train, now shut up with that condicending crap. we practice thrusting kicks on pads, and in sparring. in sparing we have to target the body or head with these kick, how much of a stretch is it simply pick another target for the kick? this way the student learns to fire the kick full force into a pad, that can move around, and they can spar with it against someone who is trying to hit them back.


"Boxers don't hit heavy bags to learn to fight. They hit bags to develop attributes like stamina, power, etc. They learn to apply those skills through alive training against resisting partners/opponents. That's key."

and karate ka don't learn solo kata to fight, they learn them to develop attributes like stamina, power, etc. They learn to apply those skills through alive training against resisting partners/opponents. That's key. oh snap, son.

"I'm not personally that concerned about the dreaded knee stomp. Any good fighter isn't going to stand there posing like a statue and allow someone to have full access to the knee. It's a low percentage technique as far as I'm concerned, unless I'm coming in, walking forward with me legs straightened out like stilts."

yeah, and as low percentage as it is, i think we can both understand how circumstance and set up/entry make or break any and all techniques. i use the knee stomp from a position similar to the major outter reap throw from judo.

"Some of the points that I've been trying to make over the course if this thread and, my entire time on this forum, has been on the matter of theory vs. practical reality; of impracticable technique vs. practicable technique. That's a very substantial point, imo."
yes it is, and thanks for being the pain in the arse voice of truth for as long as you have been. lol.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
Page 15 of 25 < 1 2 ... 13 14 15 16 17 ... 24 25 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga