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#410784 - 11/15/08 08:26 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Maybe more but not necessairly better. Compare the two fairly-just take punches. How are the punches of Karate any better? Different maybe, not necessairly better. Actually the boxing of 80 or 90 years ago was very much like old time Karate.
Now even if you maintain that boxing doesn't normally utilize as many types of strikes, you can still use them using the mechanics of boxing and that's really the important thing, which I'm finally seeing.
Karate has an advantage to a degree by having more strikes, you're right about that, however depending on the fighter this doesn't always matter. However the basic mechanics arent any betetr in Karate and boxing can facilitate jsut as many and just as effective of strikes. And liek I said, if you jsut comapre boxing to Karate for what it normally is used for (I.E jsut punching) then it's just as good.
Karate tends to require cross training as well. It's not the be all end all by any means. Perhaps the most inclusive form, Wado ryu, really isnt jsut a very complete form of Karate but one that makes use of cross training (with traditional Jujutsu). The grappling techniques of traditional Karate arent bad if you're dealing with a a brawler but against, say, a good BJJ guy it's pretty deficient I'd say. So again, cross training is necessary even for Karate.
Mattj-the following article pretty much outlines what I was trying to say about evolution at the the first few paragraphs under "common misconceptions on evolution": http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html
_________________________
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#410785 - 11/16/08 04:26 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
Shonuff Offline
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Posts: 603
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Why would a Karateka grapple with a BJJist when he could just hit the guy instead.

Put a Karateka in a boxing ring with boxing rules and there would be no difference between the fighters. Boxings style is largely a function of its rules. Karateka use all the basic strikes of boxing, they should fight from a nuetral upright stance, where traditional stances are transitional functions of specific techniques. Karateka use evasion and weaving, and the use of a ring necessitates a certain type of footwork also used in karate when appropriate.

The most telling differences would be in the defence, boxing's use of blocks and defensive nuances within attacking techniques. Although I would counter that karate does much more with many of its attacks and defences than boxing ever could, so there is still balance. However the question was on striking, not defence or grappling etc.

When this question is applied to the individual the only real factors of import are who trained the hardest and with what methods.

But the question posed was not about the individual it was about the broad categories of Martial art/sport. Saying we should look only at punching is like saying we should tie one fighters right arm to his shoe. If boxers are better punchers it is because they only train punching. If Karateka only trained punching they would be just as good, but they train much more as than that because the art is much more than that.

Furthermore trying to seperate arts by training methods is just flawed. Every school trains differently, thus training methods cannot be considered definitive of a martial art and so they cannot be used to compare styles.

Karateka vs Boxer. Karateka kicks boxer in the groin as boxer leads with a jab, then knees him in the ribs, then elbows him in the face. Fight over, Karate wins.
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#410786 - 11/16/08 04:58 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
Stormdragon Offline
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Why grapple when you could just hit him? Are you serious? Did you watch any of the first ufc's? You know how many Karateka tried that on Royce Gracie among others and got destroyed? Same with Ken Shamrock and strikers. If you don't have a solid ground game and takedown defense you may as well not even bother or at least not hope to be a good fighter.

About just kicking a boxer in the groin, yeah that could work, or kick them in the leg, but if a boxer trains against a karate person, they learn to deal with that just by using good maneuvering. It's harder than you make it sound. Karate certainly gives some advantages like that, not arguing with you there. IF the Karate person actually trains with a lot of contact sure they could take out boxers. But a good boxer can make boxing work agaisnt a Karateka if they train against it. The hand techniques of boxing is of coruse a bit limited, but nonetheless it's amazing how many combos you can out together and how many angles you can strike from using boxing. I really think boxing has somewhat better hand techniques. Or at least as good. I suppose Karate could be better in a way, if it's trained well. Still boxing can be made to work just fine.
But try some of those famous step sparring moves on a boxer. They'll never work.
Now, where can I find a true lead hook in Karate? Or a rigth cross (by that I do not mean a reverse punch)?

I really think Karate does not have the same techniques. I've never ever seen a traditional Karate fighter using the foowork of boxing (which I think the footwork of boxing is generally better).
And again it's not that easy to just "kick them in the groin".
I think the ideal would be Karate utilizing elements of boxing/wrestling/BJJ. Kind of like Kajukenbo. Both are a bit deficient imo. Karate ungloved gives more options, but they're just that, options. Not an unstoppable attack against anyone not using those options as well.
I dont know, to me, for what it is (punching only), boxing is better, in that area. And can be made to work against Karate. Really a good fighter would make use of both (or boxing and some other art with kicks, knees, elbows, etc.).
By you saying better, it's like saying a hit from a boxer isnt as good as a hit from a Karate person which is blatantly wrong. Muay thai doesnt have as many strikes as Karate but boy they have a nasty track record of beating down Karate people. It's more about how you train. Just because you have those options open doesnt mean you can make them work. And soem aspectas of Karate, really isnt that special imo (like the fottwork, which I've never seen a boxer do).
You said that a karateka with glvoes fights and mvoes like a boxer. But with kicks. In my experience when they just fight with a very crappy form of boxing usually, or kickboxing rather. The structure is different like I said. They dont move liek boxers so when they try to act liek boxers it doesnt work.


Edited by Stormdragon (11/16/08 05:14 PM)
_________________________
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#410787 - 11/16/08 07:21 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Because it [karate] does. [have everything that boxing has]





Unless we are talking about Karate that was heavily influenced by boxing, then, no, no it doesn't.

Tradional karate absolutely does not have the same footwork as boxing. Boxing has a diffirent strategy than karate. Boxing has diffirent setups/combinations than karate...shall I go on?

Quote:

That subtle nuance was placed to remind everyone that this whole discussion is subjective.




Please see my comment regarding your statment of "seperate arts by training methods is just flawed."

Attempting to dismiss logical points by extreme relativism is flawed; in doing so, you, by extension, are dismissing your own points, such as the one below:

Quote:

SO of course they look different in their natural forms; Karate is boxing + xy and z.




No, Karate is not 'boxing +" anything. Karate, especially in its tradional form, is very diffirent than boxing. I find your arrogance regarding the implication that karate has everything of boxing plus (+) more, to absolutely without merit.

Quote:

Also I simply disagree about the footwork




Disagree away. But that won't change the fact that boxing footwork and karate footwork (as seen in the Kata's, which, many experianced karataka have described as 'catalogues of the style) are very diffirent. Please reference a kata which displays boxing footwork. Please show any evidence that sport (ring) karate footwork wasn't influenced by boxing. Because it was.

Quote:

although if it needs all that cross training as you say it does it seems it would make more sense to find a more rounded system.





There is no system that does not benifit from crosstraining.
For instance, one of main developers of Shotokan sparring, Ohtsuka, imported methods from Kendo, Jujustu, and boxing.

Quote:

The question was which had better strikes. In some situations an elbow will be better suited than a punch. Since karate has boxings punches but boxing lacks karate's elbows etc Karate has the better strikes.





I'm wondering if you have read that thread at all, to be honest? Just because one art has a technique that another has, does not automatically mean that that art is better.
If your line of reasoning was correct, then taken to its full extension, many styles of Kung fu have 'better strikes' than karate, simply because many styles of kung fu have more strikes in their system.

Quote:

Why would a Karateka grapple with a BJJist when he could just hit the guy instead.





According to all evidence, this view is just wrong. I suggest you try this with a BJJer of moderate ablility.

Quote:

Put a Karateka in a boxing ring with boxing rules and there would be no difference between the fighters.




In what sense are we speaking here? Certainly there would be a very large difference between them. The rest of your own post speaks to this (i.e. "The most telling differences would be...").

Quote:

Karateka use evasion and weaving




Perhap's I'm ignorant to this, but could you point out where any Karate kata uses boxing style bobbing/weaving?

Quote:

use of a ring necessitates a certain type of footwork also used in karate when appropriate.




Also, please illustrate where the kata contains explicit use of 'ring' style footwork. As far as I know, tradional karate kata do not even involve the performer moving on the balls of their feet. Also, why would tradional karate even have the neccisity to place such footwork in the kata, because karate (as so many have said) was not originally designed for the ring.

I think you are forgetting the probably influence boxing footwork has had on 'sport' karate (which is why it looks similar).

Quote:

Although I would counter that karate does much more with many of its attacks and defences than boxing ever could , so there is still balance.




Then perhaps you should actually counter, rather than just saying 'I could'.
How precisely does Karate "do more" with it's attacks and defences than boxing "ever could". This statement seems so vague that it appears to mean nothing.

Quote:

However the question was on striking, not defence or grappling etc.





Okay. But then you say:

Quote:

Saying we should look only at punching is like saying we should tie one fighters right arm to his shoe.




Which is it? What are you trying to say. You are not really presenting a focused argument.

Quote:

When this question is applied to the individual the only real factors of import are who trained the hardest and with what methods.





Yes, I think we have established that is not only the hard training indivdual, the technique's , but also " the methods" that create a good fighter. How does this make a case for Karate 'methods' (training methodology) being better?

Quote:

If boxers are better punchers it is because they only train punching.




So boxers are better punchers then? Because that was the topic of this thread: "Who is the better striker."

Quote:

If Karateka only trained punching they would be just as good,




How would they only train punching? What method would they use to train it? Only when these questions are answered could be begin to discuss whether a karateka would be just as good a puncher.

'If's' don't count for much. I could just as easily state, "If a boxer trained kata he would be the same as a karateka." It doesn't mean anything.

Quote:

Furthermore trying to seperate arts by training methods is just flawed.




No, it isn't flawed at all. Boxing has the same general training methods, with small differences, from place to place. There are enough simularities, however, that one would know that they are 'training boxing' or 'training karate'.

Just because there is variation, does not mean that general statments can't be made. If what you are saying is true, it would be impossible for Sceintific diciplines, like biology or geology for example, to exist.

Quote:

Karateka kicks boxer in the groin as boxer leads with a jab, then knees him in the ribs, then elbows him in the face. Fight over, Karate wins.




Yes, in your purely hypothetical fight, Karate does indeed win. However, there are so many more varibles in such a fight as this that you haven't addresed.

For example, I could say: 'Karateka attempts to kick boxer in groin as boxer jabs, boxer sidesteps and hits Karateka right on the button, knocking him out. Fight over. Boxer wins.' See how I did that?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410788 - 11/16/08 08:09 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Thank you Ames for putting it much more eloquently and concise.
Shonuff-about not separating arts by training methods-I know what you eman and partially thats right but let me ask you this-would Karate be Karate without it's principle training methods of Kata and step sparring? Karate is Karate because of it's unique techniques and tactics however, it's also Karate because of it's training methods.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#410789 - 11/17/08 01:55 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Why grapple when you could just hit him? Are you serious? Did you watch any of the first ufc's?




The first ufc's is such a tired argument it really doesn't merit a response,but I'll play along.

Firstly, I feel karate is not nor was it ever designed for cagefighting. If you want to cagefight, then you are going to HAVE to integrate various training methods including groundfighting. This is the only thing the first ufc's showed. What have we learned since then? Many strikers have been very effective against grapplers by simply learning takedown defenses.

Quote:

You know how many Karateka tried that on Royce Gracie among others and got destroyed?




No, but I expect an exact number from you now along with their training regimen and previous experience.

Quote:

Same with Ken Shamrock and strikers. If you don't have a solid ground game and takedown defense you may as well not even bother or at least not hope to be a good fighter.




Yes, including boxers. I notice they didn't do so well either. What about when karate and boxing were matched up? How did that turn out? It's no secret that you have to be well rounded to be good in MMA.

Quote:

About just kicking a boxer in the groin, yeah that could work, or kick them in the leg, but if a boxer trains against a karate person, they learn to deal with that just by using good maneuvering.




How about if a karateka trains to fight a boxer? The same reasoning applies.

Quote:

It's harder than you make it sound. Karate certainly gives some advantages like that, not arguing with you there. IF the Karate person actually trains with a lot of contact sure they could take out boxers. But a good boxer can make boxing work agaisnt a Karateka if they train against it. The hand techniques of boxing is of coruse a bit limited, but nonetheless it's amazing how many combos you can out together and how many angles you can strike from using boxing. I really think boxing has somewhat better hand techniques. Or at least as good. I suppose Karate could be better in a way, if it's trained well. Still boxing can be made to work just fine.




You went all over the place there. Basically what you said is "it depends on how they each train" and I'm inclined to agree.


Quote:

But try some of those famous step sparring moves on a boxer. They'll never work.
Now, where can I find a true lead hook in Karate? Or a rigth cross (by that I do not mean a reverse punch)?




Famous step sparring? One steps are for developing a skillset. The difficulty and resistance is ramped up from the beginning. This leads me to believe your karate experience is limited. If your karate training stpooed at step sparring and kata performance then it was seriously lacking imo.

As for hooks, jabs, (uppercuts,palmheel)etc...They have always been in our karate, trained and used. Schools do vary ya know.

Quote:

I really think Karate does not have the same techniques. I've never ever seen a traditional Karate fighter using the foowork of boxing (which I think the footwork of boxing is generally better).




You've never seen karateka use jabs and hooks? I suppose you believe they punch from the hip or from a long deep stance? Depends on how it is trained. Karate is not limited to the rigidity you suggest.


Quote:

And again it's not that easy to just "kick them in the groin".




No, it's surely not.


Quote:

I think the ideal would be Karate utilizing elements of boxing/wrestling/BJJ. Kind of like Kajukenbo. Both are a bit deficient imo. Karate ungloved gives more options, but they're just that, options. Not an unstoppable attack against anyone not using those options as well.




Karate has more elements to it than you elude to. Get more training time in with a good karate instructor before trying to be the authority on the subject. You can't simply point to a given style and claim it's better. It just doesn't work that way. Many karateka train seriously, I think you are referring to McDojo's in your assumptions.


Quote:

I dont know, to me, for what it is (punching only), boxing is better, in that area. And can be made to work against Karate. Really a good fighter would make use of both (or boxing and some other art with kicks, knees, elbows, etc.).




All in all, karate is a more effective fighting style imo. Boxing is very limited. If your punches don't work, what are you left with?
Granted, boxing is a smaller skillset. Having a smaller skillset will make you better at those skills.


Quote:

By you saying better, it's like saying a hit from a boxer isnt as good as a hit from a Karate person which is blatantly wrong. Muay thai doesnt have as many strikes as Karate but boy they have a nasty track record of beating down Karate people.




Again, what karate people? What did they do and what was their training regimen? That's the key.

Quote:

It's more about how you train.





Bingo! Could have deleted your entire post and just replied with this!

Quote:

Just because you have those options open doesnt mean you can make them work. And some aspectas of Karate, really isnt that special imo (like the footwork, which I've never seen a boxer do).




But, you just said it's more about how you train.


Quote:

You said that a karateka with glvoes fights and moves like a boxer. But with kicks. In my experience when they just fight with a very crappy form of boxing usually, or kickboxing rather. The structure is different like I said. They dont move like boxers so when they try to act like boxers it doesnt work.




I've seen karateka that fight like sissies and couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag. I've also seen karateka that could one punch most people's lights out. Lots of overlooked variables in there.

All in all. If you want to have effective karate, you are simply going to have to fight. This means against as many people with as many skillsets as possible.

If I were to speak generally I would say that if you put an average karateka in the ring with an average boxer using boxing rules the karateka would most likely be outpunched. Why? Karate trains a larger skillset.
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#410790 - 11/17/08 03:00 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Hey basically I'm saying what we've always said-depends on the fighter and on how you train. Boxers could be Karateka and Karateka can beat boxers. Just because someone does Karate doesnt make them all of the sudden better necessairly which is sort of how Shonuff sounds at times. Why I'd just "kick em in the nuts!"

As for Royce Gracie beating Karateka- Keither Hackney (White Tiger Kenpo) and Ron Van Clief (Chinese Goju), Kimo (TKD supposedly), Jason Delucia (Kung fu-same difference), Gerard Gordeau (TKD), Patrick Smith (TKD).

All good TMA fighters, all trounced. I think Karate gives some good grappling options for dealing with guys who arent especially well trained. I've read extensively on the grappling methods of Karate and while they arent bad I dont think they match BJJ (well mostly anyway), Judo, or even Aikido. I think any Karate person would greatly benefit from cross training and really must do so to be a complete fighter, mma or not. Same with Boxers. You have to be well rounded for fighting in general, and Karate is somewhat but not as much as it needs to be imo.

As for the cagefighting argument, I realize what you mean but the first ufc's were pretty close to streetfighting (just look at how Hackney beat his first oppoenent) so really I think they're a good argument.

This whole thread is about my art is better than your art and it's pure BS. Does Karate have better strikes? In some ways but thats not an absolute yes and in terms of the number of strikes sure but that doesn't mean better. Depends who is using it. Personally I in some ways think boxing punches are a bit better but I'm a bit on the fence with that. And it's just me, same with the footwork.

As for my experience, I trained for around 3ish years in ITF TKD and a year in Kenpo, learned a few forms of Shorin Ryu. All the step sparring sucked. The step sparring I came up with myself was good, as well as the Kenpo ones, but the Karate methods sucked. Starting out I trained hard on those, constantly and never did make them work against same a fross, a jab, or something similar. For a complete beginner they're ok to get the fundamentals but should not maintain a big place in training for long.

When I said just because you have those great Karate options open doesnt mean you can make them work I meant because it depends on how you train. And about footwork, I honestly dont care much for Karate style footwork.

I've seen Karate people use boxing type maneuvers but they never got them from Kata or one steps, it was boxing that was included in the curriculum. And they didnt do it well. I've seen shotokan guys punch from the hip and move in the orse stance and it works for them but it's never worked for me as well as boxing/muay thai. Dont get me wrong, Karate has some good stuff to add, I use a number of techniques, especially from Kenpo and Kajukenbo, but it's not the be all end all. And like ames said just because it has more moves doesnt make it better. For what it is, boxing is just as good. And I think it's only fair to argue for what it is. And even if it's limited it can work against any other striking system. Just have to train for it. Granted it'd be easier to use other techniques. Then again some Karate techniques may actually be detrimental (for example a round house kick to the head or even midsection, easy to get knocked down when the boxing type throws a punch at the same time).

Again, depends on how you train and how you fight individually, not whether one is better, for the most part (although like I said I do have negative opinions on some aspects of both).

I'll agree though my TKD training sucked. The Kenpo was great though.

I hope this doesnt come across cotnradictory, it really isnt.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#410791 - 11/17/08 03:59 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Hey basically I'm saying what we've always said-depends on the fighter and on how you train. Boxers could beat Karateka and Karateka can beat boxers. Just because someone does Karate doesnt make them all of the sudden better necessairly which is sort of how Shonuff sounds at times. Why I'd just "kick em in the nuts!"




Very true. I can't agree with Shonuff on his assessment of karate vs. boxing, but he may just be being facetious.

Quote:

As for Royce Gracie beating Karateka- Keither Hackney (White Tiger Kenpo) and Ron Van Clief (Chinese Goju), Kimo (TKD supposedly), Jason Delucia (Kung fu-same difference), Gerard Gordeau (TKD), Patrick Smith (TKD).




Keith Hackney held his own. His training methods were flawed. He basically had the 'beat the crap out of them' strategy, even if it meant breaking his own hand,lol. BTW, he roughed up Royce pretty good before losing to an armbar. I definately think Keith was the tougher fellow in that fight.

Ron Van Clief was 51yrs old when he fought Royce. He never even got a shot off and was clueless on the ground, again it comes back to training methods. He thought he could use his striking against BJJ in the cage,wrong.

Kimo, not karate.
Jason Delucia , not karate and definitely not the same....at all!
Gerard Gordeau, not karate.
Patrick Smith, not karate.

Let's get back to the boxing so as not to derail this thread into TMA vs. MMA, again.

Quote:

All good TMA fighters, all trounced. I think Karate gives some good grappling options for dealing with guys who arent especially well trained.




Karate has alot of good striking and grappling options as well as throws,locks,chokes, etc...Some not so good imo. Any good training gives you an advantage against the untrained, obviously.

Quote:

I've read extensively on the grappling methods of Karate and while they arent bad I dont think they match BJJ (well mostly anyway), Judo, or even Aikido.




LOL! You've read huh? Don't read about it. Train it on the mat, or better yet in the yard. Again, limited experience is talking here.

Quote:

I think any Karate person would greatly benefit from cross training and really must do so to be a complete fighter, mma or not.




Sure, alot are doing so these days. But, some people aren't interested in becoming a 'complete fighter'. (different subject)

Quote:

Same with Boxers. You have to be well rounded for fighting in general, and Karate is somewhat but not as much as it needs to be imo.




What karate? The karate you 'read about'? How would you say my karate is? You have no clue, so you can't paint with such a wide stroke there bud. What you have read karate is and what I have trained karate is are two different things entirely.

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As for the cagefighting argument, I realize what you mean but the first ufc's were pretty close to streetfighting (just look at how Hackney beat his first oppoenent) so really I think they're a good argument.




I've already agreed that karate wasn't meant for cagefighting.

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This whole thread is about my art is better than your art and it's pure BS.




Your arguments seem to reflect what you disdain.

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Does Karate have better strikes? In some ways but thats not an absolute yes and in terms of the number of strikes sure but that doesn't mean better. Depends who is using it. Personally I in some ways think boxing punches are a bit better but I'm a bit on the fence with that. And it's just me, same with the footwork.




Again, it's your limited karate experience that is talking.Your opinions on karate are limited by time,style,training methods etc......

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As for my experience, I trained for around 3ish years in ITF TKD and a year in Kenpo, learned a few forms of Shorin Ryu. All the step sparring sucked. The step sparring I came up with myself was good, as well as the Kenpo ones, but the Karate methods sucked.




Dude, you weren't even there long enough to understand the basics, much less the so called 'step sparring', and certainly not long enough to see all that karate encompases.

"Learned a few forms" ? Do you mean you learned how to perform them? How long were you in Shorin-ryu? Certainly not long enough to be doing several forms I think.

I've seen 'one steps' trained robotically while the other person just lets everything happen. Not my experience though.

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Starting out I trained hard on those, constantly and never did make them work against same a fross, a jab, or something similar. For a complete beginner they're ok to get the fundamentals but should not maintain a big place in training for long.




lol......Same thing I always read here from guys bashing karate. Their short term training sucked, so ALL karate sucks,lol...

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When I said just because you have those great Karate options open doesnt mean you can make them work I meant because it depends on how you train. And about footwork, I honestly dont care much for Karate style footwork.




Karate is meant to end an attack quickly and decisively. It's not meant for a long drawn out match. Footwork is irrelevant and obviously boxing's footwork is superior in a boxing environment.

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I've seen Karate people use boxing type maneuvers but they never got them from Kata or one steps, it was boxing that was included in the curriculum. And they didnt do it well. I've seen shotokan guys punch from the hip and move in the horse stance and it works for them but it's never worked for me as well as boxing/muay thai.




I see where you get the style superiority argument now. I thought it was 'pure BS'. lol...

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Dont get me wrong, Karate has some good stuff to add, I use a number of techniques, especially from Kenpo and Kajukenbo, but it's not the be all end all. And like Ames said just because it has more moves doesnt make it better.




What about American Goju? Come to our backyard and see if we have good stuff,lol. It's not a challenge at all, but just realize how broad of a stroke you are using. I've seen some really sucky kenpo, but I don't pretend to know how ALL kenpo schools train and what is good or what isn't.

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For what it is, boxing is just as good. And I think it's only fair to argue for what it is. And even if it's limited it can work against any other striking system. Just have to train for it. Granted it'd be easier to use other techniques. Then again some Karate techniques may actually be detrimental (for example a round house kick to the head or even midsection, easy to get knocked down when the boxing type throws a punch at the same time).




American Goju doesn't have kicks above the midsection. I've seen people ko'd with those "detremental" kicks, lol. (Crocop)

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Again, depends on how you train and how you fight individually, not whether one is better, for the most part (although like I said I do have negative opinions on some aspects of both).




Your opinions are based on your experience.

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I'll agree though my TKD training sucked. The Kenpo was great though.




What aspect of it was great? What aspect of the TKD sucked?

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I hope this doesnt come across cotnradictory, it really isnt.




Yes, it really is.
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#410792 - 11/17/08 04:33 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
How is it contradictory? I simply liek both mma/boxing, etc. and Karate and am objectively willing to point out what I see to be the strengths and weaknesses of both.

You're right I havent seen your Karate, I'm going by the Karate I have seen and experienced which happens to be a big portion of the Karate found in America, and even the world. Is it all? No but a big part, maybe even most. There's always exceptions though. As for reading extrnsively, I also tried to actually apply thsoe grappling methods found in Kata. Some of it was ok. Still not really all you need for grappling imo. Maybe against untrained people but BJJ is more complete in it's approach to grappling and I see no reason to argue with that considering thats what BJJ is all about unlike Karate (I see how this statment could actually make me sound cotnradictory to what I've said peviously, sorry about that).

Obviously some people can make it work fine even against good grapplers but really I think BJJ or Sambo or something would have more to say on grappling. I really think cross training is necessary though, even for Karateka. Or just never hope to deal with a good wrestler/BJJ guy.

Maybe not better but I'd say those arts give you more options on the ground and in the clinch just like Karate does give more options than boxing.

And when the heck did I say ALL Karate sucks? I did however say I like Karate and I think it gives a lot of good options but some of it (at least what I've seen) isnt useful. Why not be honest and admit that Karate isnt perfect? I dont claim that mma, or Krav Maga or Kenpo or anything else is complete and perfect they all miss some stuff. All I'm saying is that Karate is good but not the be all end all.

Why did my TKD training suck (for me anyway)? We sparred maybe 2 or 3 tiems a MONTH. Terrible. Oh and on the TKD side (though not the boxing side) we were taught not to tuck our chins in our fighting stance and have a low hand position. SD training was another time or 2 a month. Most of my sparring was done outside the dojang with a friend who did Kyokushinkai for awhile and on the wrestling mats.

All I'm saying here, again, is that Karate is not the be all end all for fighting, neither is boxing. But both have good stuff to offer and bad stuff. Cross training is necessary. For what it is (punching only) boxing is just as good as any Karate. For what it is imo (defence against bralwers, thugs, whatever) Karate is good if effective training methods are employed. Of coruse it is at something of a disadvantage but even that won't always matter. Training and individual prowess matter most.
Thats it, all I'm saying. That and my Karate/TKD experiences were mostly bad (except Kenpo I love that stuff ).

My issue with step sparring is that it's over done, too much is just not useful for fighting. Also, the defences take too long and are too drawn out normally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npfceTVtcJA That kind of thing is garbage imo if you want to be a better fighter. Like I said I trained that stuff constantly and it didnt do me any good.

And it should make you wonder if it takes years to become a decent fighter with Karate. Whereas mma guys become decent fighters in a few months. The usual Karate training is not practical for the most part. Are the techniques good? Sure for the most part. Some of the training is good, I like makiwara training for instance. The kind of step sparring seen in that video, once past the first couple months of training, is pretty much worthless for becoming a better fighter.

Oh you asked what part of my Kenpo was great, well SD training was done every class and it was against realistic punches that people actually use like jabs, crosses, haymakers, etc. All done with speed and force so if your technique failed you got hit. Better flow as well imo.

I do wish I could see some of you Goju. Sounds pretty good. Does your group have any videos up? If Goju works for you then hey thats awesome!


Edited by Stormdragon (11/17/08 04:40 AM)
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#410793 - 11/17/08 05:12 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

How is it contradictory? I simply like both mma/boxing, etc. and Karate and am objectively willing to point out what I see to be the strengths and weaknesses of both.




It's obvious where you stand, but your experience doesn't let you be the authority. For the MOST part I agree with you.

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You're right I havent seen your Karate, I'm going by the Karate I have seen and experienced which happens to be a big portion of the Karate found in America, and even the world.




Right, kenpo and a little shorin-ryu. That leaves out just a few.

How on earth would you know what all of America or even the world is doing? You see what people put on youtube and you have your experience, that's it.

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Is it all? No but a big part, maybe even most.




Broad strokes, but I know how you draw that conclusion and I can't blame you exclusively for it.

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There's always exceptions though. As for reading extrnsively, I also tried to actually apply thsoe grappling methods found in Kata. Some of it was ok.




Which kata? What grappling specifically did you try to apply? How long did you train it? Do you think it is as simple as being shown and then being able to do,lol?

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Still not really all you need for grappling imo.




Never said it was...??

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Maybe against untrained people but BJJ is more complete in it's approach to grappling




BJJ is mostly grappling. Karate is mostly striking. What on earth brought this on? You can't compare BJJ grappling to karate grappling.

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and I see no reason to argue with that considering thats what BJJ is all about unlike Karate (I see how this statment could actually make me sound cotnradictory to what I've said peviously, sorry about that).






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Obviously some people can make it work fine even against good grapplers but really I think BJJ or Sambo or something would have more to say on grappling. I really think cross training is necessary though, even for Karateka. Or just never hope to deal with a good wrestler/BJJ guy.




What the flip??? Haven't we already been through and agreed on this?

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Maybe not better but I'd say those arts give you more options on the ground and in the clinch just like Karate does give more options than boxing.




Who said it didn't??

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And when the heck did I say ALL Karate sucks?




You didn't. You said the karate you experienced and read about sucked,lol.

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I did however say I like Karate and I think it gives a lot of good options but some of it (at least what I've seen) isnt useful.




Like what specifically? I don't think it is unuseful as much as your lack of experience and understanding of it.

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Why not be honest and admit that Karate isnt perfect?




I missed where I said that it was. I do think that how I train karate with integrated groundfighting is working well for me.

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I dont claim that mma, or Krav Maga or Kenpo or anything else is complete and perfect they all miss some stuff. All I'm saying is that Karate is good but not the be all end all.




NEVER said it was the be all end all. I really don't think you can claim ANYTHING until you have experienced its full potential.

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Why did my TKD training suck (for me anyway)? We sparred maybe 2 or 3 tiems a MONTH. Terrible. Oh and on the TKD side (though not the boxing side) we were taught not to tuck our chins in our fighting stance and have a low hand position. SD training was another time or 2 a month. Most of my sparring was done outside the dojang with a friend who did Kyokushinkai for awhile and on the wrestling mats.




Okie dokie.

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All I'm saying here, again, is that Karate is not the be all end all for fighting, neither is boxing. But both have good stuff to offer and bad stuff. Cross training is necessary. For what it is (punching only) boxing is just as good as any Karate. For what it is imo (defence against bralwers, thugs, whatever) Karate is good if effective training methods are employed. Of course it is at something of a disadvantage but even that won't always matter. Training and individual prowess matter most.




I think we have already agreed on this a couple of times.

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Thats it, all I'm saying. That and my Karate/TKD experiences were mostly bad (except Kenpo I love that stuff ).




Great.

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My issue with step sparring is that it's over done, too much is just not useful for fighting. Also, the defences take too long and are too drawn out normally.




Step sparring (as you call it) should basically be self defense techniques drawn straight from the kata and used with increasing resistance.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npfceTVtcJA That kind of thing is garbage imo if you want to be a better fighter. Like I said I trained that stuff constantly and it didnt do me any good.




Can't see it right now, so I can't comment on it. Again, sorry your experience sucked. What are you training in right now?



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And it should make you wonder if it takes years to become a decent fighter with Karate. Whereas mma guys become decent fighters in a few months.




1. Training time
2. Training methods
This is what's at fault, not karate in general. Again,broad strokes.

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The usual Karate training is not practical for the most part.




Which part? What "usual karate training"?

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Are the techniques good? Sure for the most part.




How would you know????

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Some of the training is good, I like makiwara training for instance.




I think makiwara training is outdated..

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The kind of step sparring seen in that video, once past the first couple months of training, is pretty much worthless for becoming a better fighter.




Can't view it right now.

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Oh you asked what part of my Kenpo was great, well SD training was done every class and it was against realistic punches that people actually use like jabs, crosses, haymakers, etc. All done with speed and force so if your technique failed you got hit. Better flow as well imo.

I do wish I could see some of your Goju. Sounds pretty good. Does your group have any videos up? If Goju works for you then hey thats awesome!




We don't have any videos right now. We have some people testing for blackbelt this weekend. I'm trying to get someone to record it.
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