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#410694 - 11/08/08 05:15 AM Re: Dan's article [Re: Ames]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I'm sorry I haven't had much time to join this discussion, but working for a living takes precedence over other minor pleasures.

The range of karate systems and variation of study is so great nobody can speak with authority at what karate is, outside of their direct practice or experience. Generically most systems use the same tools, strikes and kicks, kata, aplication studies and various forms of karate sparring.

Karate was not designed for short term study and execution, simply because there was no need to develop it that way.

If the issue is can karate handle 'crazed street boxers', the issue of course is it depends. In 35 years I haven't seen them so they're not my top priorty of foucs especially as I'm in my decline.

Now if I understand it a lot is framed on which is better the boxers tools or the karate-ka's tools, and for fun let's assume it's bare handed boxing, no gear involved.

Boxer's jab, ok. Isshinryu's first technique taught is a lead hand snapping strike.

Boxer's cross, ok Isshinryu's second technique taught is a snapping strike with the rear hand.

Boxer's uppercut, ok Isshinryu's third technique taught is an uppercut.

Boxer's hook, ok hook strikes against the body and/or the head are also Isshinryu beginner techniques.

Boxer's use a high sliding stance. Again ok, Isshinryu's front stance is remarkably similar to how boxer's stand.

So from a basic tool check, there is little difference between where Isshinryu beginners start and what boxing uses.

Boxers use combinations, well so does Isshinryu as I teach it. There are layers of training in karate.

Of course boxer's don't chamber... then again part of my Isshinryu instruction does't use chambering either.

Boxer's bob and weave around attacks. Interestingly in 1933 Mutsu Mizuo published a huge book on karate, 1/2 of which was dedicated to karate application and his opening section was just that use of bobbing and weaving around strikes.

The selection of available karate tools depends on strategic choices agains credible attacks. It is more telling that karate does not have one answer but layers of anwers.

Of course the incomprehensible thing seems to be karate uses kata and thats a waste of time.

One person's waste is another person's blessing. The value lies in how a group approaches training.

As I'm not a technique snob, theoretically any technique should be able to finish any attack. How one works to do that is a complex study. Any technique, period.

Kata techniques are very deceptive. What is often shown for basic training as one technique, in reality may be dozens of different technques using fractals of those motions. Obviosuly some techniques fit various attacks better than others, but just because it's obvious doesn't mean its reality either.

Of course boxing has some answers. Those who can't take it leave quickly, leaving those who can endure some body punishment. Wait, step back, when I began there was no difference bare knuckles and frequently blood, and those who stayed......... Today we reach different audiences and teach to the students needs and wants, but that doesn't mean karate can't choose to return to the same path earlier either.

The boxing vesus karate argument is old. Back in the 60's and onward the magazines kept the same arguments going. In reality very few boxers have faced karate-ka in a true no holds barred street manner.

Of course depending on one's training karate isn't bound to just on variety of striking. For example there is an old tradition of using knuckle strikes instead of fist strikes.

I tend to be neutral, I don't worry about the others delivery system rather take the gift of something presented to me and work to break it, stay away from it, or move around it as necessary.

Indonesian tjimande begins training cycles of all 4 'boxing' tools, working for speed and precision of execution, but at the same time they also work counters to totally eliminate those attacks, working to who is first allows the other to feel the pain.

This short piece doesn't begin to cover how one trains. Even in my decline I still train to do what I can.

Against anyone, if it comes in your direction work to:
1. Not play by their rules.
2. Boxing is powerful striking where they keep their center in focus sliding to bring their attacker to their center. So don't play that game. Move, stick and move, work to frustrate them so they over extend and use that.
3. Boxers focus on their striking techniques. Work to ignore them and take it to their body. It's street so you're working shoes and slicing kicks into and across their shins, or focused tam tuie like kicking to the legs disrupts hands too. But you must respond in a layered manner. Move your hands to distract their focus then..
4. Develop strong use of other tools boxers don't concentrate on. Follow the lead of Uechi, respond with finger tip, knuckles and or thumb strikes, flowing parries and other open hand responses.

There isn't a simple answer, but as I see it the choice of karate training is for a much larger goal than boxing type attacks.

I enjoy everyone trains as they see fit.

I also enjoy that I do the same.

pleasantly,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#410695 - 11/08/08 05:29 AM Re: Dan's article [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I'm going to reiterate: kime might be used by sword practitioners and karateka. In fact it is used in almost every weapon discipline. This doesn't mean they have the same tactics.

This was not the point of my article.

Just because karate uses kime doesn't mean it expects every punch to be deadly. Quite the reverse. It expects that its best power punches won't be as powerful as they could be because they aren't executed in the manner of a cross (boxing's most powerful punch).

Accordingly when it comes to "power punching" karate doesn't have as much momentum from the load and tries instead to maximise it's focus so as to make up for this.

To Chris and all and sundry, I apologise for my argumentative tone above.

My aim is not, and has never been, to prove karate "superiority". The fact that I offer some "pros" doesn't mean there aren't "cons". If you are a karateka you're probably happy with the situation because you don't do the art just for fighting. And just because I offer some "pros" does not mean I'm making disparaging remarks about boxing or any other combat sport. Suggesting positives does not consitute an attack.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#410696 - 11/08/08 03:36 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Neko456]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? I've been asked this question often and my answer is it depends if we are talking tapped and gloved then it's boxing or bare knuckle then I believe it's Karate.

After studying boxing for a little while 2-3 yrs. and Karate for 25-30 years I've come to this conclusion. I might be bias but I'm trying not to be.

Seeing the injuries caused by boxer to themselves in street fights or sparring I concluded that boxing has a good delievry system but not a good foundation its builds upon. Giving boxers there due they have some of the most devastating strikes in combination because they are few, fast, simple and direct.

Karate on the other hand (though injuries occcur it happen less often then in the boxers hook punch) one reason is the foundation development of most Karatekas and the precision and snap in the strikes not all drive through. Another thing is the staggered target is easy to get a good shot on the head when you kick someone in the ba%%s or slap their ears and grab them and then strike them.

There are other factors but this is enough to start this discussion. I know one of the argument is if Karate is better or had the best strike why is it not used in MMA. My answer is because eye gouges, rigdehands to the the groins or ear slaps are illegal.

I like Boxing (especially its footwork as a defense) but it leaves out a lot of options.

Whats your take?




I did karate for years.

I box now.

When "karate guys" come to our gym, they get owned.

I keep waiting for a karateka to outdo us.

I'm still waiting.

I love Kyokushin. But no Kyokushin guys have showed up. When they do, I'm sure I'll ask them to teach a segment on striking to the body. It would be a really good thing.
_________________________
St. Louis MMA Boxing Grappling

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#410697 - 11/08/08 03:52 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: janxspirit]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I did karate for years.

I box now.

When "karate guys" come to our gym, they get owned.

I keep waiting for a karateka to outdo us.

I'm still waiting.

I love Kyokushin. But no Kyokushin guys have showed up. When they do, I'm sure I'll ask them to teach a segment on striking to the body. It would be a really good thing.




Do you fight MMA rules or boxing rules? Do you pick the rules or let the karate guys pick the rules? Do you go bare knuckle or fight with pillows on your hands? Your training gym doesn't sound like an egoless training environment. Go for a work out and worry about some guy on the internet talking about how he "owned" you. Its the individual and how he uses his art, not the art. Who did you train karate with in STL? That's my hometown, U-City to be exact. Too bad I don't live there anymore and rarely visit these days. Then you could see if you could "own" this karate guy.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#410698 - 11/08/08 04:14 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: janxspirit]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Well I knocked a muay thai practitioner a few meters back , landing on his back. He got up and and said 'you train at our gym and I train at your dojo'. We did so for a year. Got owned a few times by competion guys (A and B fighter) but did manage to stand my ground most of the time. Lacked the insight in making combinations and continuing even after landing a good technique. I learned this training muay thai for a year and changed my way of fighting in karate. This was 15 years ago.
But did not change the way I punch. Do not like swing or uppercut, especially when the thumb-side is up. Tried it a few times without gloves and partner blocked(hitted) hard on the thumb or wrist just above the thumb. Hurts like hell.
My friend the muay thai guy did not like kata and all that stuff. He was a natural fighter. But did teach him some stuff on protecting your jewels or locking fingers or hitting the incoming arm.

All in all, wherever or whenever I trained, it was on base of respect. Never about how to own somebody. Sometimes got physical though. Most of the time it either ended with respect each other or with one not coming back. Got hospitalized too a few times, but only by friends.

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#410699 - 11/08/08 08:00 PM Re: Dan's article [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Dan, I don't think you're really reading my posts, and I don't want to turn this into a 'me vs. you' thing.

Quote:

have no idea of the extended argument I'm making.




Actually, Dan I can understand what you're writing pretty well. I'm an A-level student at one of the toughest University's in Canada. Thanks.

Quote:

Again you are talking about time spent doing "realistic" training.




The reason why I am talking about this, is because that what I have been talking about all along. That's what this is all about. No, you're article didn't really touch on that, but it should have, as it would have made your article stronger. I don't think you understand what 'delivry system' even means.

Quote:

If you stop being so argumentative you might realise this.




Read the condesending tone of your posts to me, and tell me this again. Again, you posted that article in relation to this thread. This thread came to be about delivry systems for striking. So, I'm relating what you wrote to this thread.

You're telling me that I must have only trained as a white belt, aside from stating the obvious, also misses the point. I don't really care how great your karate techniques become in ten, twenty years. It doesn't distract from the fact that alot of what is done, is done due to the culture from which the art sprang, not for pragmatic reasons.

Here's an example of IOGKF bunkai, done by black belts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzvXcUXdVXA

This is the kind of unrealistic training I'm talking about. Now don't go tell me there is some secret bunkai that I don't know about that they don't show on video. I don't care. The fact is that these techniques only work against karate attacks, because it is only karate attacks being thrown at these people. No one in real life attacks anything like this, not unless they are a karate yellow belt. So, my question is, why waste several years (these people are black belts and have been training at least half a decade) practicing this kind of thing? There are valid reasons, yes. But one of those reasons is not bettering striking ability, nor self defence skills. These type of drills are useless for both.

Here's an example of IOGKF black belts doing a 'punching/blocking exercise'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLrvBRzsW_M

Note how long their punch is held out there. Please look at these punches and tell me again that There is nothing "telegraphic" about karate Again, videos don't lie. It is what it is.

Before, you tell me that this is just an 'exercise', keep in mind that I'm questioning the validity of these exercises to begin with. What is the point of these if they can't be used against a resisting opponent of equal ability?


That being said, I know that this isn't how you guys actually fight. Actually the IOGKF is one of the few Okinawan Goju Org. which practices irikumi (free sparring). The others do not spar much, because Miyagi banned the practice after giving it a shot. As a matter of fact, many other orgs. consider this too much 'sport' at not what tradional karate should be like. For this they have good evidence, namely that tradional karate NEVER SPARED! So, don't be so quick to dismiss sport karate there, okay? Because you pretty much only are sparring because of that influence (and sport karate was influenced by boxing, funny how that works, huh?).

Nontheless, here's some irikumi from the IOGKF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNZt1x5Ragc

Now there's few things I'd like to say about this. First, I didn't see any blocks, or intercepttions. Now, sure, you could, just because these two couldn't do it, doesn't mean no one can. Sure, you could say that. But then I could say how I have never, ever, seen two apprx. equally skilled opponents able to block and intercept each other. Never. The burden of proof is on you to show be otherwise.

Next, the hand techniques in this, seem to have as much follow through as many boxing punches. Why? Because the opponent is moving. These strikes are very diffirent than those in the video I posted above, aren't they? They are like boxing strikes, only sloppier than most boxers would have after five years of training (like thise black belts). Why? Because these students wasted most of their time (IMO) with the type of training I showed above, rather than focusing on what randori. In the IOGKF, for example, sparring isn't introduced till green belt (two years).

What I'd like to point out that, this seems to be a longer path to the same level of skill that a boxer has (with his hands) in far less time. That has been my point all along.

Now, I know you'll probably tell me that your style of karate (because I'm being careful not to lump all styles together here) has more to offer than just irikumi. Fine. But, this is about developing pragmatic striking skill, not hypothetical what-if techniques like finger jabs, knee breaks and groin slaps.

Now, Dan, I'm sure you think I'm attacking the IOGKF in this. Let me make clear that I absolutely am not. I respect Morio Higaonna for going against the grain and introducing free sparring and grappling and altering the tradional curriculum do to so. I am merely pointing out that what I say does have merit. And I'm using the IOGKF because you have used that as bench mark of what good karate should be. Please don't try to deny that. It would be condescending to say the least.

Dan, you're welcome to respond to this post, but if you say something to effect that I am taking you out of context, or try to put words in my mouth that I haven't said (like I have an agenda against karate),as you've done in your last two posts. Here's an example, just so we're clear.
Quote:



Me: Further, this doesn't detract from what I'm saying in the slightest anyway. The early stages of bunkai (the first five years!) are largely static attacks. The IOGKF is a good organization, and they do practice resisitent sparring , so I'll give them that. However, I personally think that alot of time is wasted with this early level of training . No one (except other karateka) attack like that!

Your response
Well again you've made a point about how "bad" karate training is when my post concerned the mechanics of punching. Yes it takes a long time and it isn't suitable for quick self defence. Who says it is? Not suitable for self defence at all? That's another story.





Based on the above, who is taking who out of context? This is the second time you've behaved like this. Where did I say that Karate is "not suitable for self defence at all"? Don't try to turn this into me hating and having an agenda against all karate. I am against some of the faulty logic of your article, which, is also the same kind of logic often used to prove the value of certain tradional training methods that actually really only exist for reasons that are(imo) only culurally/period based. No, I'm not against karate as a whole. As a matter of fact, I'm trying to convince my wife to take up Kyokushin, because I think it would be great for self defence.

Anyway, if you want to keep this discussion going, I'm going to have to ask you to stop such childish behavior. In other words, speak to the points I raised here in an authetic way--without trying to imply that I need to challenge the karate world's masters, or spend ten years learning nonsense like I posted above, before I can comment on it--or shut up.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/08/08 08:29 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410700 - 11/08/08 09:51 PM Re: Dan's article [Re: Ames]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ames,are you saying that free fighting was not a part of karate training before karate came to Japan in the early to mid 1900's?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#410701 - 11/08/08 10:01 PM Re: Dan's article [Re: Ames]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
to everyone reading this thread, in your opinion, is there a difference between squaring up against someone toe to toe vs. reacting to a spontaneous flank attack?

or what I'm really asking is, would the training method be different between those two goals:
A. training to defend yourself in a toe to toe confrontation.
vs.
B. training to develop initial reflexive responses to a spontaneous attack.

..are the skillsets needed the same? I'm being careful not to get into 'scenario' arguments - but in general, if one person trains to defend themselves against a confrontation, and another person trains to defend against a spontaneous incoming attack: would the training methods/drills be optimized differently?

or perhaps the assumption within the question itself is flawed - maybe some feel there IS NO difference between a square-off vs. flank attack, and therefore no difference in what is trained/optimized.

I'm trying to ask so that the question is not leading or assuming anything of anyone's training.
I suppose another way to ask the overall question is, do people feel there are certain types of self-defense they are targeting to train for? or are you training for the best well-rounded defense to any sort of predicament (given the finite time you have available to train) ?


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#410702 - 11/09/08 12:08 AM Re: Dan's article [Re: Ames]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Dan, I don't think you're really reading my posts, and I don't want to turn this into a 'me vs. you' thing.

Read the condesending tone of your posts to me…




Yes – there was a tone of condescension. It was not appropriate. My apology above was meant to address that. To the extent that I did not apologise for this specifically, I will do so now. It is no excuse to say this, but I live with a fairly strong pain load because of my degenerative autoimmune disease. I can get quite grumpy and irritable. From time to time I realise this and make the appropriate amends.

Quote:

The reason why I am talking about this [realism], is because that what I have been talking about all along. That's what this is all about. No, you're article didn't really touch on that, but it should have, as it would have made your article stronger. I don't think you understand what 'delivry system' even means.




Now I’ll ignore your tone of condescension in that last comment. I will say this: I have used “delivery system” to refer to the actual mechanics of the punch. That is my use of the term. The fact that I might have misunderstood John’s or your use of that term is probably correct. It doesn’t mean that I don’t understand what those words mean in English.

Quote:

Again, you posted that article in relation to this thread. This thread came to be about delivry systems for striking. So, I'm relating what you wrote to this thread.




I posted that article on this thread to explain the mechanics of karate punching. Not to discuss karate training methods generally (ie. are they generally “live” enough) or to purport that they are better than boxing etc. This thread has a narrow topic; are “who has the best striking techniques”. I was attempting to provide some information on how karate approaches its striking mechanism – with a view to the broader conclusion that the question is misconceived; I don’t think either is “better” or “worse” because it depends on what you want to do and your reasons for training and your preferred tactics. They are just different.

I was attempting to be helpful in shedding some light (for the first time on this forum, if I’m not mistaken) on what this difference is. I was not intending to go further and discuss how these approaches are applied in a dynamic environment etc. This is a much bigger subject – one I’ll be happy to discuss (and have discussed elsewhere many times). My blog has many, many articles directly on point. I am a strong advocate on the need for application in a dynamic (moving) environment. Karate training (as I do it) starts with basic “static” drills, then progresses to putting these drills into a dynamic context. It is for this reason that all our kata have 2 person equivalents (see my article http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/muidokan-embu-2-person-forms-for-karate.html). A good example of how such a drill looks with black belts is to be found here:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=4jUiAafxswQ.

You’ll see the basic movement done solo and short, then progressively longer chains of movement until the sequence becomes “circular”. The idea behind these drills is to groove practically every “macro” eventuality (each kata adopts a different approach so that ultimately you cover the principal angles of movement and the principal possibilities). You then find (as we have done) that you CAN apply your karate in free sparring (rather than just defaulting to some kind of faux boxing (see: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/10/faux-boxing.html) – ie. just doing “any old thing”. You’re actually using the techniques that you’ve been taught.

Here is a Jundokan drill with Buddy Govender covering a different kata: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=2C3xZ0BL5Go

I also understand the importance of “resistance” and “liveness”. None of these were issues in my article, nor do I think I have to make them an issue with every single thing I write. If I did, I’d never write anything else! Moreover you and others who don’t do karate would never get the chance to learn something you didn’t know (eg. why karate does things like punch the way it does).

Quote:

You're telling me that I must have only trained as a white belt, aside from stating the obvious, also misses the point. I don't really care how great your karate techniques become in ten, twenty years. It doesn't distract from the fact that alot of what is done, is done due to the culture from which the art sprang, not for pragmatic reasons.




My point here was not meant to be antagonistic. I surmised that you didn’t really get a chance to spar with the black belts and see whether they can be dismissed as lightly as your posts suggest they ought.

Quote:

Here's an example of IOGKF bunkai, done by black belts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzvXcUXdVXA

This is the kind of unrealistic training I'm talking about. Now don't go tell me there is some secret bunkai that I don't know about that they don't show on video. I don't care. The fact is that these techniques only work against karate attacks, because it is only karate attacks being thrown at these people. No one in real life attacks anything like this, not unless they are a karate yellow belt. So, my question is, why waste several years (these people are black belts and have been training at least half a decade) practicing this kind of thing? There are valid reasons, yes. But one of those reasons is not bettering striking ability, nor self defence skills. These type of drills are useless for both.




There are many reasons why karate basics are done the way they are done. They occupy a very different role to boxing basics. They are actually drills for grooving angles of movement and also for conditioning the body. Their purpose isn’t obvious and is not easy to understand for an outsider. Just as kime training underlies the karate punch, factors such as plane of deflection grooving underlie blocking training etc. (See my articles: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-blocks-do-work.html and http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/evasion-vs-blocking-with-evasion.html.)

The first article above has embedded in it the video about the jab. Bear in mind that the jabs are done in isolation; they are not intended to represent a “real” approach. I know full well that a jab is usually followed by another punch. Then again, I also don’t just “deflect” and do nothing more.

While the video is not necessarily “proof” of anything, I can assure you that the fellow punching me (Jed) is not only fast, but very “cross-trained”. He can and does hit like an ox. One day soon (when I’m better) I’ll get him to put gloves on and do it all in a completely “dynamic” environment. Yes, he’ll land one or 2. But I’ll deflect the majority and hit him back.

Quote:

Here's an example of IOGKF black belts doing a 'punching/blocking exercise'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLrvBRzsW_M

Note how long their punch is held out there. Please look at these punches and tell me again that There is nothing "telegraphic" about karate Again, videos don't lie. It is what it is.

Before, you tell me that this is just an 'exercise', keep in mind that I'm questioning the validity of these exercises to begin with. What is the point of these if they can't be used against a resisting opponent of equal ability?




This is an example of a basics drill. Even senior black belts will keep going back to basics. This doesn’t mean that it even approximates their sparring. This isn’t a disparity in logic: It is a disparity in purpose. You don’t fully understand the purpose of the drill so you interpret it within your own paradigm. I’ve tried to open up the karate paradigm so as to increase that understanding.

A karate punch in combat borrows what the Chinese call the “yi” or concept of the basic; it does not attempt to apply the exact “xing” or form/shape. The “xing” is primarily useful in teaching certain concepts that will be alien to you, as I stated above.

While these basic drills might seem worthless practise to you I have suggested to you to spar with some senior IOGKF and Jundokan practitioners only for you to see that these methods have indeed left their mark on those practitioners; I doubt you’ll come away thinking that it was pointless. Is this “long road” suitable for you or others who want quicker results? Probably not. I never said it was. There are many reasons people do arts like karate.

As to Nakamura sensei, I’ve neither trained nor met him. I just picked him as ONE example because I know him by reputation as a very formidable fighter. In terms of drills here is Nakamura showing a push-hands sensitivity drill that also progressively grooves karate grappling in a more dynamic environment:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=aRg2XTIzhmI

Quote:

That being said, I know that this isn't how you guys actually fight. Actually the IOGKF is one of the few Okinawan Goju Org. which practices irikumi (free sparring). The others do not spar much, because Miyagi banned the practice after giving it a shot. As a matter of fact, many other orgs. consider this too much 'sport' at not what tradional karate should be like. For this they have good evidence, namely that tradional karate NEVER SPARRED! So, don't be so quick to dismiss sport karate there, okay? Because you pretty much only are sparring because of that influence (and sport karate was influenced by boxing, funny how that works, huh?).




Actually this is not historically correct. Sport sparring and the kind of sparring done by IOGKF (iri kumi) are vastly different and have a different origin. While karate traditionally didn’t engage in free sparring it did have limited sparring. In this sense early karate wasn’t dissimilar in its attitude to sparring to, say, krav maga. In any event, the absence of sparring in karate and its history is not something I sought to engage in on this thread. It is an interesting and worthwhile topic, but not one that I want to start here.

And while I might be seen to comment adversely on sport sparring, this is only to point out that it is not intended to be anything like combat karate. It is a very specific “game”. I don’t actually disparage it at all. I have a great deal of admiration for those who do it. It takes a lot of skill and, dare I say it, courage. But it is not real fighting and it bears little resemblance to how karate is designed to work – which is in what I have called the “melee range”. (See my article: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/07/melee-karates-fighting-range.html).

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Nontheless, here's some irikumi from the IOGKF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNZt1x5Ragc

Now there's few things I'd like to say about this. First, I didn't see any blocks, or intercepttions. Now, sure, you could, just because these two couldn't do it, doesn't mean no one can. Sure, you could say that. But then I could say how I have never, ever, seen two apprx. equally skilled opponents able to block and intercept each other. Never. The burden of proof is on you to show be otherwise.




One of my pet hates is the fact that karateka have themselves deserted their traditional blocks. Because they don’t understand its intended use in the melee, they tend to practise it at a distance. Even if that distance is “closer” than, say, taekwondo, it is still a foot or 2 too distant for the blocks to work.

I come from a long tradition of actually using my blocks and other interceptions in sparring. Needless to say, unless you practise some of the basic drills to which you’ve referred, you won’t be able to implement these techniques.

In this regard you are free to consider my article http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/04/randori-function-of-soft-sparring-in.html. That article has a video embedded in it:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU

This shows some deflection/interception. This isn’t even representative; it’s just all that I had on video of sparring. That article explains our approach to sparring – going from soft and slow (where you get a chance to actually implement the bunkai you’ve learned) to hard and fast which is more of a test or experience for “liveness”.

Quote:

Next, the hand techniques in this, seem to have as much follow through as many boxing punches. Why? Because the opponent is moving. These strikes are very diffirent than those in the video I posted above, aren't they? They are like boxing strikes, only sloppier than most boxers would have after five years of training (like thise black belts). Why? Because these students wasted most of their time (IMO) with the type of training I showed above, rather than focusing on what randori. In the IOGKF, for example, sparring isn't introduced till green belt (two years).




But limited sparring is introduced from day one in IOGKF as far as I know. In any event, this is a separate topic.

As to the “follow through” punches, there is a vast disparity between karateka right around the world in how they implement their basics. There is nothing wrong with “follow through” anyway. Even karateka do it. My article was about goals and degrees of difference. On this topic, see my article: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-are-my-karate-punches-more-like.html

Quote:

What I'd like to point out that, this seems to be a longer path to the same level of skill that a boxer has (with his hands) in far less time. That has been my point all along.




Well, you’ve made your point. What you seem unwilling to concede is that karate does develop something useful that boxing does not. You might not need them to be effective, but in my view karate does develop skills you and other boxers don’t have. This is not an attack. It is my attempt at an objective statement. As I say, you can dislike the karate methods of deflection (rather than using “pure” evasion as per boxing), you can dislike karate’s emphasis on kime (which might never be applicable to protracted matches but might have bearing on a single punch attack/defence in a car-park) etc. but it doesn’t mean that karate has a different methodology that I am attempting to explain – not convince you to follow.

Quote:

Don't try to turn this into me hating and having an agenda against all karate. I am against some of the faulty logic of your article, which, is also the same kind of logic often used to prove the value of certain tradional training methods that actually really only exist for reasons that are(imo) only culurally/period based. No, I'm not against karate as a whole. As a matter of fact, I'm trying to convince my wife to take up Kyokushin, because I think it would be great for self defence.





I’ll ignore the vitriol of your last comments. I will say this: I was out of line with some of my comments because I used a dismissive and rude tone. But I don’t agree that my article has “faulty logic”, nor that I put “words in your mouth” (although I might have misunderstood some of your points). I’ve just re-read my article; even the part at the end under the heading “which is better” to which you refer is consistent with my argument. I revisited it to correct any errors and found it read just fine. I have made some other adjustments on the basis of your comments.

While you seem to expect every one of my comments to be qualified to the nth degree (and I have actually tried to do so as much as possible, resulting in an over-long article just for starters), I note however that you do not hold yourself to the same standard. For example please re-read your comment that “a boxer beats a karate man” or words to that effect. It would seem to imply that the skill of the individual is irrelevant; that ANY boxer will beat ANY karate man. You offered K1 as proof. I picked you up on that logic, but you have never resiled from your position.

It is my view that your own posts have generally poured scorn on karate-type arts. The tone speaks for itself. There is nothing in your posts that suggests any willingness to consider that they have some benefits for combat or some validity in their approach. You feel that these attacks on karate (which are necessarily very dismissive of, and insulting to, some very tough people) are justified because they are fact. If anything it seems to me that you will only find karate agreeable once it resembles boxing – or have I misread you?

I think that if you’re honest you’ll admit to your own scathing and argumentative tone that shows clear disdain for karate and assumes that I and others have nothing to contribute to your understanding of this art and tma, rather than doggedly deny it.

In terms of proof/'putting up' etc. - I'm sure you'll agree that I do more than my fair share (without ANY commercial angle - I don't and have never derived income from MA). I wish I could say that my openness (I don't even have a nom de plume), sincerity, enthusiasm and efforts have been met with any due respect or even civility.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (11/09/08 12:34 AM)
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#410703 - 11/09/08 02:02 AM Re: Dan's article [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

I come from a long tradition of actually using my blocks and other interceptions in sparring. Needless to say, unless you practise some of the basic drills to which you’ve referred, you won’t be able to implement these techniques.

In this regard you are free to consider my article http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/04/randori-function-of-soft-sparring-in.html. That article has a video embedded in it:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU

This shows some deflection/interception. This isn’t even representative; it’s just all that I had on video of sparring. That article explains our approach to sparring – going from soft and slow (where you get a chance to actually implement the bunkai you’ve learned) to hard and fast which is more of a test or experience for “liveness”.




I dunno...think you overreached a little on that one Dan?


Here's another good example of some 'resistive sparring' ->


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