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#410814 - 11/18/08 02:39 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsZVLzCCgrA

here is an example from the bugeikan in Okinawa, your right mind it is not 'the same', but they are most certainly up on the balls of the feet.

personally I see boxing (ie the modern sport) and karate (ie the modern sport....) or the martial art as having common ground but each is very specifically different in application and strategy.

granted if you look at bareknuckle fighting across the globe you will see remarkable simulairites mind.
_________________________
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#410815 - 11/18/08 04:34 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


Which is precisely why a diffirent strategy would be needed. Is that not clear? The very fact that a karateka will hold and punch will mean that they have a difffirent strategy than a boxer.





Actually that was in support of the idea that karate is boxing+. Yes karateka have grabbing etc, but they also can and do use the same set-ups that don't require grabbing etc. The same tools plus extra = the same strategies plus extra.

Quote:

Yep, that's one of my points. Boxing methods are taught in karate, but they came from boxing. Why? Again, I'll quote Abernethy:





Guess what, I agree. Boxing training methods have been adopted by karate. But you and I are coming from fundamentally opposing view points, i.e. I am talking about the striking not the training. I could train the same boxing punches just hitting air, or I could train them hitting people. The punches themselves would be the same. Strikes and the training to use them are seperate elemennts. Unless you can show that I cannot perform boxing techniques without boxing training then your position is untenable.

Quote:

I'm sorry, but no. This footwork is just not the same. You'll have to point out to me where you see a bob and weave there, because I didn't see anything like one.

Now before you state that I'm not seeing the kata right, please remember my statement regarding boxing's influence on modern karate. There is nothing in that kata that even approximates a boxers bob/weave. Maybe there is a 'karate version' or something, but if your bob/weave looks like a boxers and you're telling me it comes from there...I'd say you are doing two arts: karate for the kata, and boxing for the sparring.




You are trying to look at a kata without the vaguest understanding of what a kata actually is, how it is dissected and how it relates to fighting. This is why I didn't post these up with my original comment. Unless you train in Karate it is meaningless to you.

I never said Karate has boxing bob+weave, done in the same way with the same purpose. I said Karate uses weaving. The punch/weave I'm talking about is shown as a static posture at 56s. In a live situation it is slightly different as it is moving around a punch.

Boxers are not the only people to figure out that dodging is a useful skill. The way a boxer bobs and weaves in a ring is unwise outside the ring because he may just get kicked.

Quote:



By your definition you could say that kali stick fighting is found in the kata...as long as the interpretor understands that implication. Sorry, I don't buy it. Yes, bobbing and weaving might be in the karate you are taught, but it is imported from boxing.




If you really wanted to, but thats an extreme that very very few people support. You can buy it or not, it is the truth. Karate is more than you think it is. Just because you don't like the idea of something doesn't make it false.

Quote:

I'll remind you that this is a discussion on boxing and karate, and you'll need to show that the technique is from karate and not boxing. So far from the evidence, it looks like your calling boxing techniques 'karate'.




No this discussion is on striking. This misunderstanding might be why any positive toward karate is being taken as a slight against boxing.

I can't prove to you a technique is from karate if no matter what I say you say "nope its boxing". You believe that boxers invented anything that is linked to punching and worthwhile, and anything outside your experience is crap. Not much I can do about that.

Quote:

have you not, tried this strategy against a BJJ practioner?





Yes, and won most encounters. If I get taken down I loose 7 out of 10. I never win on the ground, I get up or avoid going down, often by being the aggressor and keeping the opponent on the back foot.

Quote:

What training methods am I leaving out per chance? Do you use a heavy bag, gloves, skipping rope: that proves a boxing influence.




Many of modern karate's training methods come from boxing. Happy? So if I use boxing training to develop my karate, then fight in a match with karate techniques are you saying I'm a boxer?
Training is not and has never been what I am arguing. You still have said nothing which refutes my statement that karate has better strikes because it has more variety which work effectively in more situations.

Quote:

No, it doesn't. Do you honestly beleive that a boxer needs to train karate in order to beat a karateka!




I was speaking specifically not generally. Your scenario has the boxer defending against unfamiliar techniques. Your assumption through this whole thing is that a random karateka will not be as well trained as a boxer. That is the arrogance in this debate.

Quote:

Further, I can turn this logic back on you and say that if your karateka defeats the boxer it is only because his training has become saturated by boxing training methodology (heavy bag, pads, rope etc) and techniques.




Maybe so, but since we don't really know precisely how karate was originally trained we cant say. Either way, training is training. If one boxing gym uses burpees and the other doesn't are they different styles? No. Training does not define an art.
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#410816 - 11/18/08 06:10 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'm not surprised at people's misconceptions about the useage of kata or the techniques of karate. If you tried to get an idea of what karate does via the internet you will most likely be disappointed.

My experience with boxing is limited,but I think I understand it's training methods. Punching technique and footwork is essential along with fitness and a high amount of sparring.

Karate is a completely different art although it has boxing elements. I don't think karate has near the level of boxing that pure boxing does. Why would it? Karate covers such a wide area that varies from style to style and school to school. The training methods also vary just as much. All-in-all I believe karate is supposed to teach you how to use your body to the best of your abilitiy.

Boxing is better at boxing and karate is better at karate, simple as that.

As far as striking goes...apples and oranges imo.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#410817 - 11/18/08 12:08 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
But it doesn't take a scientist to know that ducking, weaving and bobbsing is a method that all true fighting arts practice.

Ames responce to above statement - No, they don't. Unless you are saying the tradional karate and kung fu (for example) are not "true fighting arts".

These skills were adopted FROM BOXING. There is absolutely no evidence that these skills were practiced before boxing's influence.
============================================================

Neko456 - Ames what you see in basic Kata or foam Kumite is not what Karate is. Trad Karate has Kiso kukite and bunkia that ducks under strikes, KICKS and to setup throws and get behind some one. Kururunfa and Shisoshin has bobing and weaving tactic and these are Classical Kata. You just have to Know what you are looking at. And Chunfa has many classical forms that dodge up under and avoid coming up on the other side of the attacker. It just doesn't always look like boxing because say you are bobing under a kick or weapon, in these arts. So I am saying that Karate and Chunfa are self defense arts and boxing is now just a sport.

I am saying that moving fast on the ball of the feet is done in Karate its done to kick (something boxing don't do) and strike) so boxing doesn't have the lock on this and really it doesn't looking like boxing footwork really. But at a certain range one should plant in order to avoid being sweep or thrown. Moving on the ball of feet the Karateka doesn't look like a boxer until he moves into sanchin stance arm strike range. Boxing has bof or step and slide & maybe 3 method of moving in and away (usually based on body type and indivisdual skill) from an opponent and Karate has Various methods also. So these methods vary based on how each fighter modify or want to use these tactics.

So having boxed I feel I can say what boxing isn't for me and having studied Karate and Chunfa I can say what Karate is to me. Unlike you I won't say that boxing isn't adapatble and the a boxer can't learn to add things to his arsenal and as I said before it's a good base to grow from. But I don't think its the best method to bring to a street fight bc everybody can swing. Now you are right I am pigeion holing boxing as Pure boxing as I've trained it to compete. But I know boxer can throw elbows, head butt and will kick in the balls in a street fight, but are they good at it???

Most of the time if they miss they are outof position and more vurnerable then.

Now don't think that you are putting Karate in hole saying that Karate doesn't do this and that.

Here my personal view on "Karete didn't spar in Okinawa" If you didn't want someone taking your culture and wanted people in power to go away, wouldn't you say this is just dancing we don't practice this to spar". But you ask the soliders that visited or came back with the skill (even though it was watered down) at this time. My 1st Instructor could fight kicked my a$$ and several other guys that were older and bigger then me. I jumped him in the dark bad decision. Maybe it wasn't sparring but sure did hurt and I didn't want anymore of it put on me. So I asked to learn it. Most of these guys were from Missouri (just a saying) the show me state, Marines, Army, Military guys who seen these little guys kick much a$$ and came to their class to learn. No the Okinawans told the truth they didn't spar, they fought which is two different things. I won't even address the notion that Some Chunfa didn't fight it was a War Art, so that speak for it's self.

Here is another shocker for you Karate has an overhand right and a upper cut, thrown different then a boxer but it has the same purpose. There is really nothing that boxing has that other striking arts don't have.

But giving Boxing it's due, it's better then most while in the gloves. Boxing is far from unique but it is proficent.

By the way my 1st instructor Sensei Tony could box also but in a fight he used Karate maybe this why I'm bias. Some might say thats why he could fight. But it didn't feel like boxing to me I remember being in a sit position on the ground and tennis shoe kick in my face, knocking my head to the concret ouch!! Boxing don't feel like that.


Edited by Neko456 (11/18/08 12:34 PM)

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#410818 - 11/18/08 12:34 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Neko456]
Kravinatrix Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 52
Loc: ESSEX
Just looking at punches.
Boxing strikes are quicker, i.e jab. More powerful as they make better use of body weight. Use better footwork and do not leave yourself open like Karate strikes (bringing the hanmd back to the waist). On the one downside its easier to grapple someone from the boxing stance as its slightly less stable and the punches can be more overcommited. However in my opinion the pro's heavily outwiegh the cons.
I base my answer upon assuming your are talking about classical karate such as shotokan, where the strikes are found in the katas, otherwise its not really proper Karate and just a sort of adaptation. Otherwise karate starts to become a much to broad term where certian freestyles will contain all the boxing techniques within them thus making your argument irrelevant.

Watch mixed martial arts, the majority of upper body punches are very similar to boxing although thrown more wildly in most cases. I have yet to see someone use correct karate form when punching in mma as seen in the traditional kata's.

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#410819 - 11/18/08 12:44 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Kravinatrix]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
From the bottom of your post up:

1. No...don't watch mma for 'correct karate form.' Correct karate form is whatever works...not the mental image that the non-karateka here seem to have.

2. Perhaps the longtimers can correct me...but I don't believe that Shotokan is considered to be 'classical' karate. But that is a whole discussion in and of its' self.

3. Chambering punches, especially to the waist, isn't something we do. You punch from where ever you happen to be.


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#410820 - 11/18/08 12:49 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Kravinatrix]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Otherwise karate starts to become a much to broad term where certian freestyles will contain all the boxing techniques within them thus making your argument irrelevant.


But Classical Kenpo/Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu do have upper cuts and over hand rights they do have foot movement that require ball of the foot movement (like in most cross over side kick and pick up roundhouse kick) moves. You have to admit that can't be founded in boxing and it can be bof movement which makes it quicker. I'm saying that the bobinng and weaving looks doesn't like the close compact way boxing does it, but its still moving the head and upper body out range yet staying close enough to counter. Most of the time ducking under or weaving like techniques are dohe to strike the back or get to the back to blind strike the guy (which is illegal the way I learned to box).

So lets not get to thiking that all the good things came from boxing, boxing is Good but does it train and teach how to get to someone back to strike the BACK/Spine and what part of the hand or elbow to use to strike the hard head. Good is Ok granted but better is better.

You made my point and I elaborated on it. Karate does have aboarder range of striking movements/tools.

I wouldn't say boxer's strikes are faster (gloves slow you down and unglove movement they just seem to flash open hand gestures) but I agree that they are more committed. And constantly thinking combinations but so is a Good Karate man.

If you take only MMA results and methods as your Truth. If it you don't know what works for you thats great. But no matter what they do thats not me. What has worked for me is my truth not GPS or Randy C thats their truth based on their skill level. Because they can do don't mean U can, unless you put the same work in.

U gotta know what works for U.

I know what works for me. Gloved that may work for me though I'd hope my boxing would be more refined. But I think I'd get DQ'd for groin kicks and blows to the back of head. if i didn't get careless and KO, wild crazy punches hurt too.


Edited by Neko456 (11/18/08 01:05 PM)

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#410821 - 11/18/08 03:02 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

I never said Karate has boxing bob+weave, done in the same way with the same purpose. I said Karate uses weaving. The punch/weave I'm talking about is shown as a static posture at 56s. In a live situation it is slightly different as it is moving around a punch.





Maybe not directly, but when you that (as you've just re-phrased it), Karate has "the same tools plus extra = the same strategies plus extra," it surely seems like you are implying that the EXACT same techniques are found in boxing and karate.

You seem to be going back and forth between saying that karate has all the techniques of boxing, and saying that karate has techniques which are SIMILAR to boxing. Which is it? Certainly, I would agree with some karate techniques being SIMILAR to boxing techniques. But as for them being wordperfect the same, I don't agree with that.

So, again, just as karate has things that boxing does it, I'll repeat, karate also does not have those same techniques that boxing does.

Further, it is becoming more and more apparent to me that you are isolating the arm movements of a punch from the rest of the body skills that the punch requires. Just as the karate 'bob and weave' is, as you say, isn't "done in the same way with the same purpose" so too for the punches.

The footwork and the weight shifting IS diffirent in boxing than karate (unless the karateka is doing boxing punching) and this has a direct effect on the actual punch, both in form and delivery. Again, I don't have to be an expert in karate to see this. It is a fact, it can easily be seen by anyone who watches any karate sparring in which a heavy influence from boxing has not been felt.

This type of thinking is evident in your last post as well:

Quote:

If you take someone trained as I have been in Karate and tell them they are going to fight under boxing rules then leave them a month to train for the fight, you will find that striking wise they fight the same . Movement will be slightly different, defence will be slightly different.




'Movement' is a fundemental part of what makes a boxing punch a boxing punch and a karate punch a karate punch.

Quote:

I am talking about the striking not the training. I could train the same boxing punches just hitting air, or I could train them hitting people. The punches themselves would be the same.




There is a lot more to a punch than arm movement, footwork, weight change, and overall strategy of the style play a role in how much a punch will resemble another. Karate punches may look SIMILAR to boxing punches, but they are not the SAME (again, unless the karateka has adopted boxing punches).

Here is what I mean:
This is two Shotokan students (and I agree with Harlan that I wouldn't consider Shotokan to be tradional karate, but that is another thread. I'm using this because this is the style the Shonuff practices.) Anyway, here are two Shotokan guys practicing ippon kumite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xOAYDmNpOU

Now here are two boxer's sparring from the same range

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s07aIbLs2hE

Also here are some boxing techniques in better isolation against a focus mits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXxXOG9w_x0

Now, I'm sorry, but for you to tell me that these punches are the same is just wrong. I have just picked a shotokan vid at random, but any number are the same.

It is not the arm movement, it is how the entire body moves. The difference in footwork (as in the bob/weave which you admit is diffirent) creates a diffirent punch.

Quote:

You are trying to look at a kata without the vaguest understanding of what a kata actually is, how it is dissected and how it relates to fighting.




First, it is obvious that I could say the same to you regarding boxing. But let's not go there, okay?

Here's the thing Shonuff, in the kata, the footwork and punching looks nothing like boxing. Now, if you tell me that in application it's diffirent and is like boxing then, okay. But why is that when I look at the techniques apparently extracted from the kata (like in the video I posted above) it bears very little resemblence to boxing? At what point will I see ONE boxing punch?

Quote:

If you really wanted to, but thats an extreme that very very few people support.




Yes, and it's meant to be extreme. What I'm saying is that the kind of kata extraction you are proposing seems very arbitrary--to the point where one could read anything they want into the kata and call it 'karate'. Aside from potential issues of diluting the original art, at what point does what you are doing become something else completely?
If,
Quote:

Boxing training methods have been adopted by karate.




and you are telling me that:

Quote:

I use boxing training to develop my karate, then fight in a match with karate techniques are you saying I'm a boxer?





It's not my attempt to prove to you a "nope, it's boxing" thesis. What am I doing. The reason I have proved that boxing training methodology has had an effect on certain karate styles (like your own) is to suggest that there is already a proven influence. This should give one pause, because there also is, more than likely, a technical influence as well.

Further, although I wouldn't go so far as to say you are a 'boxer', I think it would do you well to consider the following.

1. The majority of your training methodology comes from boxing.

2. The majority of your condiontioning (heavy bag, focus mitts etc.) comes from boxing.

Therefore, I wouldn't go so far as to say you are a traditional karateka either. This is why, if you look through my posts, I was using the term 'tradional' karateka.

Quote:

Boxers are not the only people to figure out that dodging is a useful skill.




I never said that. Coming from an Aikido background, that would be a rather foolish thing to say, wouldn't it? Boxing evasion and karate tai sabaki are diffirent, though and that's all I have ever been saying. Don't try to put words in my mouth please.

Quote:

The way a boxer bobs and weaves in a ring is unwise outside the ring because he may just get kicked.





He may, or he may not. This point is useless. I could also say that 'A karate practioner would be unwise to use kicks outside the dojo, as a grappler would just take them down."

And before you attempt to disprove this, understand, I know how faulty the logic is here. It's the same logic you are using, and it's drivel.

Quote:

You still have said nothing which refutes my statement that karate has better strikes because it has more variety which work effectively in more situations.




I think I have done just that.

YOU have yet to show what why more techniques automatically translates into being more effective.

Quote:

Maybe so, but since we don't really know precisely how karate was originally trained we cant say.




Perhaps not precisely, but we can certainly make an educated guess based on the evidence. There is alot of evidence, photographic, video, written, and oral to support my stance that Okinawan karate did not spar, hit a heavy bag, use focus fits etc. There is nothing to support your argument that it did. Sorry, but this is how intelligent analysis vs. extreme relativism works, we weigh potential truths based on a logical apraisal of the facts at hand.

Quote:

Either way, training is training. If one boxing gym uses burpees and the other doesn't are they different styles? No. Training does not define an art.




On what grounds do you base this on? Of course training helps to define an art. Would Muay Thai be Muay Thai if it didn't have the kind of training it does? I think not.

Also, your use of the 'burpee' analogy is flawed. Of course it doesn't matter if one gym does burpee's and another does, say free squats followed by hanging leg raises. What matters is that both gyms have a program that is heavy on condiontioning, as this is the common denominator in boxing. Not the specific technique.


Quote:

That is the arrogance in this debate.





No, it is not. The arrogance in this debate is your clinging to the belief that karate has everything that boxing does, without providing one shred of evidence beyond the old 'you don't get the secrets of kata' line. Sorry, it's not a valid refutation of anything I'm saying. So far, you have not presented any actual evidence to support your claims that the kata contains all the techniques of boxing, aside from vague references to an incredibly abstract reading of kata through the bias of pre-known boxing techniques.

You reply to Stormdragon, suggests this arrogant view of things:
Quote:

it's the 3rd movement and it is a hook punch.





Yes, it may be a 'hook punch', but it certainly is NOT a boxing style lead hook punch. Apparently this is, as you say, a " surface application of a kata". If so, then shouldn't that punch at least resemble the boxing lead hook punch? Because it certainly does not, not on any level besides it being a hooking strike. EVERYTHING else is diffirent. I suggest you rewatch the videos that Stormdragon posted.

Neko :
Quote:

Unlike you I won't say that boxing isn't adapatble




When did I say this? I never said anything like this!

Quote:

If you didn't want someone taking your culture and wanted people in power to go away, wouldn't you say this is just dancing we don't practice this to spar".




This, and the paragraph that follows it, is just wrong. There are many, many sources to verify that karate did not originally spar. The fact that someone posted a video of Uechi ryu trying to come up with free sparring methods in the 40's is a clear example of this.

Quote:

Here is another shocker for you Karate has an overhand right and a upper cut, thrown different then a boxer but it has the same purpose.




That's great. But if they are 'thrown different" then they aren't the same punch are they.

Quote:

Boxing is far from unique




Funny. What specifically about boxing makes it "far from unique". Apparently is unique enough to have it's own style of punching, footwork, and training methods, many of which have been adopted by a variety of styles today. Again, show me how boxing is "far from unique". That statement is ridiculous.

Harlan :
Quote:

1. No...don't watch mma for 'correct karate form.' Correct karate form is whatever works...not the mental image that the non-karateka here seem to have.





If karate is 'whatever works' then it is everything and nothing at the same time. Why call it karate? Why anchor it to less than perfect, outdated training methods (like horse stance to develop leg strength for example)? If correct form is "whatever works", then why is form so intrinsic to its study (kata)? What makes karate, karate if it is "whatever works"--why study it over anything else? No, karate does, it must, have a form that makes it karate.

And no, I don't think it is the rigid, caricature of 'karate' that many seem to assume I do.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/18/08 03:06 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410822 - 11/18/08 03:17 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I call it karate because that is what my teacher calls it. As for why study it over everything else? Lots of reasons to study it...but that is obviously a rhetorical question and a seperate thread altogether.

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#410823 - 11/18/08 05:16 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: harlan]
Kravinatrix Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 52
Loc: ESSEX
Quote:

From the bottom of your post up:

1. No...don't watch mma for 'correct karate form.' Correct karate form is whatever works...not the mental image that the non-karateka here seem to have

3. Chambering punches, especially to the waist, isn't something we do. You punch from where ever you happen to be.





If its whatever works then it has no formal style and cannot be considered a style since it uses, "anything that works" this is excuse for trying to say Karate doesn't suck by saying things like no thats just for training, we dont do it that way, then why the hell train like that?

Chambering punches is done in most Karate classes, I used to attend one. Its a pointless way of training if you dont fight that way, thats why boxing is alot better for punches.

If you fail to define what Karate actually is then this argument is completely pointless. If you look at karate as unrestricted then you could put boxing techniques in there and still call it Karate.
This thread is pointless and completely stupid.

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