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#410744 - 11/12/08 05:51 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
About using Karate in sparring, Dan uses it in sparring just fine, and older fottage of Karate training on Okinawa shows it being used. It obviously can work. Unless a person has a lot of exposure to boxing (and most today do)they'll use they're style. ld Karate fighters rarely fought like boxers at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciek8LmaI5Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Beft4Z80uU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c124cNd08T4

But of course video footage doesnt mean anything right Jkogas?


Edited by Stormdragon (11/12/08 05:54 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#410745 - 11/12/08 07:48 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Hmmm. I guess I'll start with the first one, of the Uechi sparring.

First off, the fact that in the description it says that this is when they are trying to figure out the rules for the sparring (meaning there hadn't been any up till then), helps prove my point that sparring is relatively new to Okinawan Karate. So, in the truest sense of the word 'tradional', no tradional Karate did not contain sparring, it is a relatively new phenomenon.

Secondly, I'm not sure what the rules are here, but the ref seems to be stepping in regularly and breaking them up. Not when they are deadlocked, but when someone looks like they might get knocked out, or when someone scores a particularly solid hit. All in all, this certainly isn't 'knockdown', sparring. It seems more like point sparring without the gloves and headgear.

On to the next video.
This is Shotokan Karate, not Okinawan. More than that, this is the Japenese mililtary practicing Shotokan. Bloodier, yes. I doubt there is much kata training going on with these guys. This video does not speak to the training methodologies of tradional karate in the slightest.

As for the third...well...thanks for the laugh. I hope you don't think that was a well trained boxer, LOL! THis is exactly the kind of crap I was talking about before. Just because you put boxing shorts and boxing gloves on someone and tell them to imitate a boxer, does not make them one! Maybe, and I really mean maybe, this guy has rudimentry training in boxing, but I doubt even that.

Anyway, where to begin with this obvious propaganda piece? Hmmm. Well first off, this is apparently Shotokan (again. Probably because sparring wasn't widespread in Okinawa, huh?).
That intial scene certainly isn't sparring, is it? The boxer was going very slow, and was using absolutely NO FOOTWORK! Then we see a quick demonstration of diffirent techniques. Then what do we get? Wait for it....complient drills against a 'boxer'! They don't even make contact with each other.

Stormdragon, I have to thank you for illustrating my points better than I did!

Seriously though, I'm not sure what you're trying to 'prove' with these videos? I really hope you don't think that proves that "it obviously can work."

Of all, the second video of the Shotokan guys was the best. But again, these guys arn't using tradional training methods. So...

By what you, and what Dan posted earlier of his 'full contact' sparring, I have to seriously question if either of you know what full contact, knockdown sparring even is?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410746 - 11/12/08 07:51 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Hmmm...I do believe you have validated a question I've been asking for some time. And this is: why don't I see karate in sparring?




I see "karate" in sparring. Karate simply teqaches you to use your own body the most efficiently. My karate may not look like your karate.
It's not going to look like a kata, nor should it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#410747 - 11/12/08 07:52 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

About using Karate in sparring, Dan uses it in sparring just fine, and older fottage of Karate training on Okinawa shows it being used. It obviously can work. Unless a person has a lot of exposure to boxing (and most today do)they'll use they're style. ld Karate fighters rarely fought like boxers at all.





I've not seen Dan's sparring. I don't typically look at "member videos" because I'd be hesitant to make comments. I'm not into attacking people personally. Dan may spar like a demon, I don't know.


Quote:



But of course video footage doesnt mean anything right Jkogas?





The videos you provided were bad. The first two identified karate guys vs. karate guys. The last was complete garbage.


Storm, do you even understand why the PKA adopted a more boxing like structure?


-John

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#410748 - 11/12/08 08:13 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Quote:

Hmmm. I guess I'll start with the first one, of the Uechi sparring.

First off, the fact that in the description it says that this is when they are trying to figure out the rules for the sparring (meaning there hadn't been any up till then), helps prove my point that sparring is relatively new to Okinawan Karate. So, in the truest sense of the word 'tradional', no tradional Karate did not contain sparring, it is a relatively new phenomenon.

Secondly, I'm not sure what the rules are here, but the ref seems to be stepping in regularly and breaking them up. Not when they are deadlocked, but when someone looks like they might get knocked out, or when someone scores a particularly solid hit. All in all, this certainly isn't 'knockdown', sparring. It seems more like point sparring without the gloves and headgear.

On to the next video.
This is Shotokan Karate, not Okinawan. More than that, this is the Japenese mililtary practicing Shotokan. Bloodier, yes. I doubt there is much kata training going on with these guys. This video does not speak to the training methodologies of tradional karate in the slightest.

As for the third...well...thanks for the laugh. I hope you don't think that was a well trained boxer, LOL! THis is exactly the kind of crap I was talking about before. Just because you put boxing shorts and boxing gloves on someone and tell them to imitate a boxer, does not make them one! Maybe, and I really mean maybe, this guy has rudimentry training in boxing, but I doubt even that.

Anyway, where to begin with this obvious propaganda piece? Hmmm. Well first off, this is apparently Shotokan (again. Probably because sparring wasn't widespread in Okinawa, huh?).
That intial scene certainly isn't sparring, is it? The boxer was going very slow, and was using absolutely NO FOOTWORK! Then we see a quick demonstration of diffirent techniques. Then what do we get? Wait for it....complient drills against a 'boxer'! They don't even make contact with each other.

Stormdragon, I have to thank you for illustrating my points better than I did!

Seriously though, I'm not sure what you're trying to 'prove' with these videos? I really hope you don't think that proves that "it obviously can work."

Of all, the second video of the Shotokan guys was the best. But again, these guys arn't using tradional training methods. So...

By what you, and what Dan posted earlier of his 'full contact' sparring, I have to seriously question if either of you know what full contact, knockdown sparring even is?

--Chris




My point with posting these was simply to show that Karate can actually be used in sparring/fighting/kumite without resorting to some bastardized form of boxing/kickboxing.

The boxer vs. Shotokan guy obviously wasnt a full force, knockdown kind of thing, it was just easy going sparring, the point was to show what Karate would look like applied against a boxer and that it can be used for such. Say the boxer went a bit faster and harder. So what, the Karate guy could do the same. The technical side is what I'm looking at.

And no that boxer wasnt all that great. Is he pro level? Hell no. He looks like he's been doing it a a few months. He has maybe average boxing skills. Enough to demonstrate how boxing might look against traditional Karate. Both looked like they were just screwing around though, they're both probably much better than that.

Again, he could probably go harder and faster and meaner, but so could the Karate guy. Same difference.
It's not propaganda. How come when you guys post stuff to back up your opinions it's just that, but when we do it it's propaganda, or we're being unfair somehow? Like we're trying to manipulate people.

I'm simply rying to show that Karate techniques can be applied against boxing techniques and can be applied in fighting in general. And it is possible. Hell ask Victor Smith, he should know he has more experience than all of us combined. It's not like boxing has a monopoly on effective hand techniques. IT's good but it's not the be all end all like you're making it out to be.

As for that first video, the techniques are pretty traditional, and it is sparring. Whether you personally like the rules or not, it's still sparring. Whether they trained that way origionally or not, thats not the point, the point is whether the techniques are applicable.
Honest question-is your issue with the techniques of traditional Karate, or the training methods? Kata I dont see as really necessary, and sparring is very necessary (it's not everything though). We agree there.

And about the defense force karate-Who're you to say they never use Kata in training or pre-arranged sparring? You always get on me for hypotheticals, well your opinion that they dont do kata is just an opinion, a hypothetical. You have no evidence.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#410749 - 11/12/08 08:18 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Quote:

Quote:

About using Karate in sparring, Dan uses it in sparring just fine, and older fottage of Karate training on Okinawa shows it being used. It obviously can work. Unless a person has a lot of exposure to boxing (and most today do)they'll use they're style. ld Karate fighters rarely fought like boxers at all.





I've not seen Dan's sparring. I don't typically look at "member videos" because I'd be hesitant to make comments. I'm not into attacking people personally. Dan may spar like a demon, I don't know.


Quote:



But of course video footage doesnt mean anything right Jkogas?





The videos you provided were bad. The first two identified karate guys vs. karate guys. The last was complete garbage.


Storm, do you even understand why the PKA adopted a more boxing like structure?


-John




Ah so when we have a good demonstration of Karate in action, you get evasive. Wonderful. You can always pm me with your opinion on it but of course you wont. It might actually back up my point pretty well.
Anyway I'm not just trying to show that Karate works agaisnt boxing but that it can work in general in fighting/sparring.

And again, boxing is good, jsut not the be all end all.
What about Lyoto Machida? I've seen a number of Karate techniques in his fights, especially Shotokan style sweeps. He's punching has a somewhat Shotokan like flavor to them.


Edited by Stormdragon (11/12/08 08:22 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#410750 - 11/12/08 09:07 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Ah so when we have a good demonstration of Karate in action, you get evasive. Wonderful.





Evasive? How? Because I'm not going on record to be critical of anyone? That's being evasive to you? I see it as being "nice".



Quote:

You can always pm me with your opinion on it but of course you wont.





I have nothing to say regarding Dan. That's the way it is and will be. I've not seen his clips and don't care to. If he wants, he can provide a link to some. But let HIM do so if he chooses. Regardless, I probably won't leave a comment.


Quote:


It might actually back up my point pretty well.





Or, it could lessen it.


Quote:


Anyway I'm not just trying to show that Karate works agaisnt boxing but that it can work in general in fighting/sparring.





Define sparring for me? I mean, when I speak of sparring, clinching and takedowns to continued ground fighting is allowed. Still believe in what you say?



Quote:

And again, boxing is good, jsut not the be all end all.





I guess you haven't really listened to anything I've said. I speak of boxing as a delivery system. As a practitioner, I don't just "box". I utilize muay Thai, wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, savate, Panantukan, etc. However the fundamentals of boxing are in place and have to be, as far as I'm concerned.

I never stated that "karate guys" could not fight. I've said this on this very thread I believe, in response to Dan I believe. My main point has to do with the practice of KATA. I'm sure you're aware of this. Still, I would NOT choose to come out and fight/spar in the way I've seen a lot of karate guys spar. It wouldn't be my cup of tea. Arms down....just not good habits, imo.



Quote:


What about Lyoto Machida? I've seen a number of Karate techniques in his fights, especially Shotokan style sweeps. He's punching has a somewhat Shotokan like flavor to them.





I've seen him. He's good. He trains with MMA teams now. Good for him.


-John

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#410751 - 11/12/08 09:17 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Sparring, as I do it includes punching/hand techniques of all types, kicks, knees, clinching, ground fighting, ground n pound with open hand strikes, no elbows, etc. Full power to the body, slight power to the head/face with open hands usually. No gear most of the time. Soemtimes it'll jsut be kicks and punches or grappling only. Thats sparring as I do it.
Just to be clear I'm with you on the kata thing for the most part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU This is a video Dan has posted before. A lot of it actually isnt Dan. Would you be willing to tell me, good and bad, what you think by pm? Or if it's all bad say nothing, only good stuff you see, what've makes you feel like you're being nice. I'm actually genuinely curious what people think.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#410752 - 11/12/08 09:55 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU This is a video Dan has posted before.





What did I say in my last post about this? I'll tell you what, I'll quote myself:


I wrote:
Quote:

I've not seen his clips and don't care to. If he wants, he can provide a link to some. But let HIM do so if he chooses. Regardless, I probably won't leave a comment.





That's all I'm saying about this here.


Quote:


.... what've makes you feel like you're being nice.





What makes me feel like I'm being nice when I don't criticize another's performance on a public forum??? Call it, a sense of decency maybe?

If a person asks me to and wants my honest opinion, I would STILL probably have a hard time doing so, to someone that I speak with on a regular basis and, someone whom I respect (and I do respect Dan).

You should know the deal here bro. I have respect for everyone here, providing they show it to me.


-John

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#410753 - 11/12/08 11:24 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
You know you can critique something without being rude.
Anyhow, I suppose I still dont fully grasp your view of using boxing as a delivery system. I suppose for you it's more integrated than my image of it. What I'm talking about is using the basic jab, cross, hook, uppercut, evasions, from boxing, and thats it vs. traditional Karate (depending on what you mean by traditional Karate). I'm not looking at boxing, plus Panantukan, plus muay thai, plus whatever else you've mentioned. Just plain old boxing.
You mean boxing as it is when integrated with other skills.


Edited by Stormdragon (11/12/08 11:40 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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