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#410844 - 11/20/08 12:27 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
---------------------------------------------------------

Neko456 wrote - For your overall lack of knowledge (you seem to know well what boxing is to you) you also debate well,
-----------------------------------------------------------

Ames wrote - Neko, do me a favor and don't insult me, okay? Tell me, where am I so "lacking in knowledge" that I can't make an informed decision.

How about you make a point that isn't completly subjective and 'proven' only be hearsay and personal anecdote and insult?
__________________________________________________________


I apologizes if you feel I insulted you but we do seem to see things differently, you seem to believe everything you READ and I take experience as a factor. You got to learn how to give and take and remember your comments guides the views that others have of you. As u say its just my opinon.

Now I've seen boxers in actual street fight some have done well others have got there lunch brought to them, (this is true of MAs also). I can't tell you the Golden gloves and street boxers who have challanged me and been taken into deep water and drowned. I know how to box a little can't beat my semi-pro brother but when I swicht to Karate technique he doesn't fight well in the air or on the ground.

So I don't have to tell a boxer that they can't fight I know they can in their fish bowl, but take them in another dept and they are not good at it. Like anyone else.

I will say that a boxers conditioning and abilty to react quickly because of his sparring makes him forminable within his range. But the boxer is bound by his experience (sorta like you, just my opinon don't take it personal) or lack of experience at other ranges. If I know (bc I've trained to box too) what he capable of and he thinks he knows what I can do (going by what he read or movies), who do you think has the advantage?

As for whats been written if you believe that then I see where you get your opinion. But I warn you can't beleive what you read or see on Tv all the time. I guess you beleive we went into Iqra as liberators not for control of the oil supply, you beleive that we were not fore warned about Pearl habor or the Twin towers. Anyway despite that I did see the Twin towers fall. Seeing is believing and other then that its his story.

I've seen Karate in the 60s-70s it was quite different then now, and we have better athletics nowdays but intent and training purpose was totally different. Seeing is believing.
I felt it when I thought I could box.


Fighting is different then Sparring is what we really don't see eye to eye about. Boxers spar and they train to spar, this can be used to fight, bc condition and sharp reflexes.

A serious Karate person trains to fight, they spar to sharpen their fight spirit and techniques and bc of this it can be used to fight.

I see a different and though I can box, when I've been attacked I use Karate, (really whatever) but I call it Karate bc you train in a certain style but Karate is whatever works. Even if I use a boxers hook, I'm thinking Kaarte now I can grab his throat and ba%5s and throw him. Another strike boxer don't have sure they could learn it but I do it intinctly.

Besides whats you have read and you did read it correctly what have you experience to guide your well debated decision?

I agree with Med and Shonuff look like everybody but you Ames. Jkogas, Stromdragon give Ames some support from your EXPERIENCE is what I like a Jkgas not only from what he has read. And Ames me Jkogas disagree alot.


Edited by Neko456 (11/20/08 12:38 PM)
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#410845 - 11/20/08 12:38 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Neko456]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
What an interesting quote!

Quote:

Fighting is different then Sparring is what we really don't see eye to eye about.

Boxers spar and they train to spar, this can be used to fight, bc condition and sharp reflexes.

A serious Karate person trains to fight, they spar to sharpen their fight spirit and techniques and bc of this it can be used to fight.





and this as well:

Quote:



I see a different and though I can box, when I've been attacked I use Karate, (really whatever) but I call it Karate bc you train in a certain style but Karate is whatever works. Even if I use a boxers hook, I'm thinking Karate




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#410846 - 11/20/08 12:50 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: harlan]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Kind of an aside based on several posts I have seen and to build on what Neko has said.

All this talk about chamber hands, guard etc, to me is odd. Real fights outside the ring are very dynamic for the most part. If I have seen 100 fights, maybe 1-2 did anyone take a stance and look like a boxer, almost every other one was explosive and contstant movement.

The guard is great for sparring or ring fighting but doesn't really apply outside of that for the most part.(not that it can't, it just doesn't usually go down in a way that it can)

Also the statement that boxers hit harder because they learn to hit with body is laughable, I have trained in more then a handful of Dojo's and I have never been to one that didn't deal extensively with using full body strikes.

If a boxer hits harder it's because he is a better athlete, not anything specific to the art not found in Karate.
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#410847 - 11/20/08 12:54 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Kimo2007]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
'Use the body'...'It's in the body.'

Heck...the way my teacher and his trains...a light BLOCK 'kills' the arm. Everything is/can be a 'strike'

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#410848 - 11/20/08 07:48 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Neko456]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I'm really busy right now with the end of my semester, so I will have to write a more in depth post later to Shonuff. But I couldn't let Neko's post ride.

Quote:

you seem to believe everything you READ and I take experience as a factor.




No I don't believe everything I read. I do take experiance to a be a big factor. However, when talking about historical issues (like you did regarding American solidiers not getting full transmission of Karate from Okinawans) then, unless you were there, YOU HAVE NO EXPERIANCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS. They are purely conjecture, and worthless. This is a basic idea, ok? So don't lecture me on 'not having experiance and only reading', okay? If you don't want me to talk about sources, don't conjecture about history, okay?

Quote:

Now I've seen boxers in actual street fight some have done well others have got there lunch brought to them, (this is true of MAs also). I can't tell you the Golden gloves and street boxers who have challanged me and been taken into deep water and drowned.




That's good for you. But it means nothing. Hree's a little about my experiance: I worked as a bouncer. During that time I had run-ins with karate blackbelts ( I know they were for a fact). I dealt with them, either there, or in the parking lot after the bar was closed. I did just fine against everyone of them. What does this prove? NOTHING. I've also done well sparring against karateka. I haven't brought this up, because I'm not so arrogant as to think my encounters translate into some overarching truth about the effectiveness of karate as a whole.

If you think I have no realworld experiance then you are very, very wrong. So get over yourself.

Quote:

So I don't have to tell a boxer that they can't fight I know they can in their fish bowl, but take them in another dept and they are not good at it. Like anyone else.





Some boxers can fight in a variety of situations others can't. So what?

Quote:

But the boxer is bound by his experience (sorta like you, just my opinon don't take it personal) or lack of experience at other ranges




First, what 'experiance' do you think I have? I'm interested to know how you could know my experiance in anything?

Second, do you not think a karateka is bound by his experiance. Again, your points are so subjective that they mean squat.

Quote:

If I know (bc I've trained to box too) what he capable of and he thinks he knows what I can do (going by what he read or movies), who do you think has the advantage?





The better fighter will have the advantage.

Quote:

Seeing is believing and other then that its his story.





Wrong. Personal experiance always effects the way we see things. Therefore, a single person's experiane, though relevent to them, shouldn't be objective enough to convince another person of much of anything, especially historical events. There is a difference between a 'story' and an educated guess based on availible data. If you don't get that, I suggest you go and read a book about critical thinking.

Quote:

I've seen Karate in the 60s-70s it was quite different then now, and we have better athletics nowdays but intent and training purpose was totally different.




Yes, and that is one of my points. Tell me Neko, why do you think karate has changed so drastically from the 60's and 70's? What about the training changed? Where do you think that influence came from?

Quote:

Boxers spar and they train to spar, this can be used to fight, bc condition and sharp reflexes.

A serious Karate person trains to fight, they spar to sharpen their fight spirit and techniques and bc of this it can be used to fight.





What nonsense! Boxers train to fight, too. I posted two videos of boxers fighting in a real world scenerio. Had I only posted one it would be enough to disprove your overly general claim.

Also, the claim could be made the majority of karateka only practice to fight against other karateka. Certainly, in terms of the bunkai, this is a relevent point.

Quote:

Besides whats you have read and you did read it correctly what have you experience to guide your well debated decision?





Some training in karate and my experiance sparring and fighting karateka is one aspect that guides my views.

Quote:

Jkogas, Stromdragon give Ames some support from your EXPERIENCE is what I like a Jkgas not only from what he has read.




This statement makes little sense. But I'll try to puzzle it out. Again, you seem to think I have no experiance. Again, you are mistaken.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/20/08 08:12 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410849 - 11/20/08 08:56 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Christy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 61
Loc: The D
Lots of fighting here.

The answere to the question is rather simple: Boxers. Striking is what they do.
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#410850 - 11/21/08 10:43 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Ames wrote - Yes, and that is one of my points. Tell me Neko, why do you think karate has changed so drastically from the 60's and 70's? What about the training changed? Where do you think that influence came from?

456 - Why do I think that Karate has changed??? We'll now where do I start now we play Karate and we wear foam rubber gloves and purpose is to score points and bring home trophies almost like a boxer or train for fittness the main concern is not self defense. Though we have better athlets now that can do flashier techniques at lower levels the purpose has changed. When I was training and before Karate training was done BAREFISTED the techniqes taught were serious very few times did you leave the dojo without blood drawing, often competitors pee'd blood the next day after a kidney strike. Defense and Combinations were trained and taught differently I often saw KOs or Claws to the face in tournament I myself was struck in thorat (with a fore knucle strike) thats how I know it works and I've been using it ever since (not in tourneys on the street).
And that was just sparring when techniques were taught it was 1st for street applictaions then you learn what not to do in tourneys. Instep and lower body attacks were taught, getting to someone back to strike was taught not jump in back touch. Man I can go on for days on how things are different, but I won't.

You think its bragging to state you have experience at something. A word of truth it ain't bragging if its true. And if you are lying so what a lie won't help u in a fight, it ain't hurting nobody but you. Any way I use to bounce also at night clubs, work security at apartment complexs, done a little bodyguard work, fought in dojo envisions, worked as a policeman all in the worst part of town. Been shot at and shot back at. I've been in (as a kid) traif fights and race fights been told I was gonna die more times then I can count. I don't mind sharing my experience you can believe it or not. Alot people think they can box in my neighborhood it was thought as a way out but few really made it big time. All that to say I know boxing and I know fighting they are two different things. Just like you can use wrestling in a fight it doesn't prepare you for fighting at the different ranges. That's all I'm saying not that you cna't add to wrestling or boxing but as they are taught they lack dept. (I use to wrestle High school and college) continuing to share.

As for having soliders tell me how they use to trained is one thing but when they show you it becomes real. I'm not one that believes everything I see. Like I said after seeing this little guy out box a bigger buddy, I thought if I got close I could take him. He whipped my boxing a$4 so fast that I didn't know what happened, and then kicked me in face while I was trying to get up. I never seen that in boxing I was use to the mount and pound I was planning on doing that to him, BUT a shoe don't taste good.

Anyway boxing good stuff but its just the begin and nowhere close to the end, niether is Karate that why after 30 years I'm still learning. But I do know what works best for Me.

Besides you being able to fend off drunk Karate guys did you use boxing? I asked because when I bounced and work as a peace officer I use detention/come alongs techniques after slowing them down with sweeps or strikes. Did your boxing help you handcuff or detain these ruffins??

I'm glad you found my post irresitable to let ride.


Edited by Neko456 (11/21/08 10:52 AM)
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#410851 - 11/21/08 12:46 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Neko456]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Neko :
Quote:
Besides you being able to fend off drunk Karate guys did you use boxing? I asked because when I bounced and work as a peace officer I use detention/come alongs techniques after slowing them down with sweeps or strikes. Did your boxing help you handcuff or detain these ruffins??


First, they weren't all drunk. Some were, though.

Next: no when I was actually in the bar, I generally would use my aikijujutsu training with boxing footwork (if that makes sense) to lock them up and drag them out, or throw them so we could grab the guy and drag him. At all times I've fought out of a modified boxing stance.

This goes to Kimo's point as well (regarding not putting a guard up in a real fight). Actually, I've found just the opposite. Whenever I am suprised I usually immediatly throw up my guard/strike. Remember too that boxing doesn't only have a high guard. They also have a low guard and that video that was posted, to me, just looks like someone striking from a low guard. I looked it up and, from what I can see, neither of those guys have karate training. Both have trained boxing.

In several extended (more than one punch) fights that I've seen, both in person and on video, someone will put up a guard at some point--it just makes sense to protect your head.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410852 - 11/21/08 01:03 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Ok you have Aikijujit training along with your boxing that makes you legit, see what you mean most ranges are covered. But you should see the gap that was left if you didn't have the street inflience training. Anyway I beg your pardon on lack of experience issuse but you ain't no normal Boxer.

No problem good discussion from your point of view but like you, your success won't change mines. Thats what life is about differences and points of views. Lets hear more.

Thats one thing we agree on guards/fence/stance are and can be important in a fight. The less solid contact is made to the head or body the best. Foot works helps but better safe then black eyed or broken nosed. Hell it could happen guards up anyway but don't give it away.
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#410853 - 11/21/08 03:37 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Neko : You said:
Quote:

No problem good discussion from your point of view but like you, your success won't change mines. Thats what life is about differences and points of views.




Fair enough. I didn't (and don't) expect it to. I just wanted to remind you that everyone has different experiances, and that's why we need to step outside our own experiance sometimes in order to see the larger picture.

Shonuff:

Quote:

Why do you need to judge an art at all? Judge a class that you are thinking of training in but leave generalisations at the door.





I agree tha generalisations can only go so far. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, and I have met karateka that certainly have my respect for their functional fighting abilities.

The reason why I have to "judge an art" is because that was the thread topic. I most likely would have said nothing to begin with, had I not seen a gross misunderstanding of boxing, its principles, and the quality of its fighting ability outside the ring. In order to make case for anything, we can really only speak to the general state of things. If we were to disscuss every exception, then it would be impossible to clarify any topic, ever. I've made it clear several times, that there are exceptions out there. However, as many have said, there is no denying that my comments on the current state of karate is accurate for the majority of dojo's. There are, and always will be exceptions. But the majority of dojo's are representitive of karate, I'm sorry to say. Just like the majority of contemporary boxing practice is representive of boxing as a whole. Let me remind you once again, that there are many exceptions for boxing, and many gyms that practice are more inclusive, well rounded fighting art (like the Crazy Monkey gyms for example). And in manny ways, I feel at least, that these gyms are really just going back to boxing's roots. But they don't speak for the majority of gyms.

Quote:

Remember the thing I wrote about putting the various strategies and techniques from different parts of the art together.

If you take the all of the purely percussive elements, those parts that deal only with punching and associated strategy you will find enough boxing that the differences between the boxer and the "stripped down" karate fighter are nearly negligible. Yes there are technical details and perhaps even some strategic details which are not going to be present in the karateka's arsenal, but to me this is a triviality more than anything else.

The reason that the strategies are so spread out is simply that Karate evolved very differently and using different rules as it's guide.




There's really very little for me to disagree with here.

However, I'd like to point out that this is precisely why karate does not contain all of boxing.

The "stripped down karate fighter" who is training like boxer, punching like a boxer and then fighting in a boxing rule set, is, for all intents and purposes, a boxer. Now this isn't me trying to lower this disscussions to mere semantics. What I'm saying is that this is boxing, and the day a karateka starts only training boxing techniques, training like a boxer, fighting in a boxing match, he is boxing.

However, as you say youself, karate has evolved diffirently, it has diffirent aims. Generally speaking, there is no reason for a karateka to train like boxer, or only practice boxing techniques. If he doesn't ever train like boxer, use techniques and footwork like a boxer, in isolation like a boxer, then he never really practices boxing. That's why boxing isn't really in karate--only techniques that look similar. This is not a value judgement. It's just seems like the most logical way of looking at it.

Karate does its own thing, same for boxing. Can we let it rest there?

Quote:

Some of the best Karateka I have trained with are on Youtube. Not one of them displays anything more than the most basic traditional elements or tournament sparring, and yet they know so much more. Your arguments are mostly good, well constructed arguments, but unless you get out there and train with people and do the work yourself you won't see where I'm coming from.





I can only repeat to you that I have done just that. I do see where you are coming from. I just don't agree with everything you say. Call me Thomas, but I just need to see some evidence of the kind of karate you are speaking of. It's not that I disbelieve that you or your dojo may train the way you say, it's just that I don't think it is representatiol for karate. But then again, as you say, you made it clear that you were only speaking from your experiance, which is fine.

Again, just like you and others are only speaking to of the majority of boxing gyms and leaving out the exceptions, so can I only do the same for karate. That doesn't etch my points in stone as the only 'truth' of karate, but neither does the minority of exceptional dojos invalidate my statements regarding the general state of karate.

Quote:

And yet you accepted that the surface of the art is not the whole art, and also that there is a developmental process involved in moving from performance of the movements of karate to actually fighting that has the surface structure discarded.
If you can accept these two points then you must be able to see that no movement you ever see in a kata will look like anything other than kata.





I accept that the actual functional technique can look very diffirent than what the kata shows, if that's what your getting at here.

My issue is why if, as you say, "Karate evolved very differently and using different rules as it's guide" would boxing be 'inserted' originally into the kata? Which is why I believe that,if you are throwing a boxing jab (not a karate 'jab'--and they are diffirent), that somewhere down the road some boxing influence has crept in.

The fact that the hand techniques of boxing are becoming so prevalent in some karate speaks, in my mind, to their effectiveness.

Quote:

You may not like the idea but this is karate. A great many karateka have decided exactly this and come up with all sorts of rubbish as kata applications. And yet this is a fundamental part of karate. Explaining this to any real depth is a whole 'nother thread, but what I will say is that there are many sides to this discussion. Personally I fall on the side of strictly limiting interpretations into systematic fighting styles derived from individual or groups of kata. Then once that level is attained further study lets you take the movements wherever they will go. Victor describes it as training potential releases of energy, or something similar.





That's fine. I haven't gone far enough in kata to disagree with you and others about what kata 'is'. If it appeared like I was, then I must have not phrased my argument correctly. For that I apologize. Certainly I'm not arrogant enough to think that I can speak to the intricacy of kata extraction like someone with a decade or more in the art could. Thanks for clarifying it's role.

But I still think (like my above statments) that if someone 'finds' boxing in the kata, then they are 'reading' the kata with a pre-knowledge of boxing.

To be honest, this is something I might be worried about, if I cared about authentic transmission of the art. Because this could certainly lead to forgetting what the kata initially taught. Your method of first acheiving knowledge of the original intent before branching off, seems to be a good way to prevent this, though.

I still think that kata though did not have boxing originally inserted into it. But anyone is free to read it as they want.

Quote:

You want evidence for things.




I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not looking for evidence that kata can be read like this. I'm looking for evidence that two or three hundred years ago the Chinese, and hundred and fifty or so years ago for the Okinawans, a full boxing curruculum was inserted into the kata. I don't think it was.

Quote:

My point about karate containing boxing was on a strategic not mechanical level, although again I see little of significance in the differences.





I beg to differ, and say that you can't isolate technique from strategy like that. Technique is the manifestation of the principles of an art. The principles and strategy of karate are very diffirent than boxing. Many other karateka on this very thread have shown how diffirent those strategies are. The fact that a kick enters into the equation, alone, will alter the strategy.

Quote:

However, I stated earlier that I agree training can Identify an art, but not define it.

To me what you describe in your example is identifying Goju. To define goju by those practices you limit goju to just those practices IMO. Goju is those things, but it can also be much more.





Goju can certainly be more, but it also must be those things. That's why I say they define it. Without those key components, you would have a hard time defining it as Goju and not something else. But I actually don't think we see this point very diffrently, and there is no need (from my perspective) to get caught up in the difference between 'identify' and 'define'.

Quote:

what I have read leads me to believe that there was much fighting practice of Karate but only at higher levels than any Japanese reached in Funakoshi's time, and most of the other things that you don't think were present in original Okinawan training were from what I have gathered, very much present in one form or another.




Did karate have its own kind of sparring? Yes. Was it free sparring to knockdown? I'll need to see some evidence there before I change my views. Here is the evidence to support my claim.

1. In Higaonna's book about the history of Goju, he meantions that Miyagi attempted to insert free sparring into the Goju curriculum. The fact that he even had to do this pretty much proves that this kind of sparring was not taught by his teacher, Kanryo Higashionna. Miyagi felt that too many students injured themselves, and he removed from the curriculum. To this day, To'on Ryu does not spar.

Shorin Ryu seems to have practiced only point sparring for the most part, and this is still seen in dojos today.

We have already seen video of Uechi Ryu coming up with sparring methods in the 40's. That pretty much proves it wasn't there before.

So we can be pretty sure that the three major schools of Okinawan karate did not practice free (knockdown) sparring.

As for the other "things". I'm not a hundred percent what you are refering to here (probably due to your rush to finish, and, hey, who could blame you, when the lady calls, best to answer). But if you are talking about heavy bags, gloves, focus pads, etc. Well I'd need to see the evidence of that. Medaulent has said the same, and I'm still waiting for the proof that these things were there before boxing's influence. It's possible, but it directly contradicts what I have read.

The main thing is the sparring anyway.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/21/08 03:39 PM)
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Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

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