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#410794 - 11/17/08 07:02 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
The specific types of Karate are different sure, but when I say most Karate isnt that great (even if the styles should be good) is because of the poor training methods, such as that step sparring stuff (which in my experience and the experience of a lot of people I've known is useless and from almost every video of almost every style I've seen is no different).

Step sparring for me is he throws a lunge punch, I block and then coutner with like 5 shots at will, no response from him. Or 2, 3, 4 step sdparring, whatever where it's, well, I guess I could put it this way "It's not alive". At all. Maybe you do it differently. I've seen a ton of Karate and done a fair amount and thats usually what I've seen. In TKD the responses were generally not from Kata and way overstylised. Kenpo where I took it was great because the techniques were pulled from Kata and actually practiced against realistic attacks.

Point fighting is another practice with minimal utility imo. Too much stop and go.

What Katas did I practice? the first couple Naihanchis, the 2 Fukyugatas or whatever and I started on one other, forget which though. Even Kata I dont see as all that useful although it's kind of fun.

About the grappling thing somewhere it seemd you were implying that Karate has all you'd ever need in the way of grappling. Which I dont agree with. At least not in the long run. Sorry if I misunderstood. I really dont see how the cagefighting thing matters as opposed to the street considering there were so few rules and protective gear. Today it's pretty different and comparing Karate to mma/cagefighting of these days I think is unwarranted. But the first few ufc's I'd say were close enough. Kata was designed for no rules fighting which is what the early ufc was.

I said some of Karate isnt useful. You disagreed. What makes you think it's all good and every bit is useful (as you seem to think)?

You said in response to me saying that mma makes peopel decent fighters quicker than Karate, that the training methods were at fault. Thats exactly what I'm getting at. Impractical training methods. I dont like every technique I've seen in Karate but technique really isnt the issue for the most part. Training methods. Which we agree on and yet you have issues with the issues I have with the training methods I've seen used in Karate training (sorry for the tongue twister).

The way you described how step sparring should be I totally agree with but havent seen often nor experienced much. I always ended up doing that kind of realistic training on my own with other guys from the dojang. They just dont do it.

Just to be clear I've been equating TKD with Karate and I'm sorry, thats probably not the best way to go.
Also, sorry for reiterating the same points over and over it's just a bad habit. I really do like the sound of your form of Karate.

Right now, my training is focused on mma, Krav Maga, and a little Kenpo. I dont often have access to a training partner since I moved a couple months ago but I make due. Some guys I drill with fight out of team quest and I'm hoping to do some training with them eventually.

One other thing, why cant we compare BJJ grappling to Karate grappling. As far as I can tell (I very well may be way off base) Karate style grappling seems to be an abbreviated form of traditional Jujutsu or chinese wrestling. Just enough to enable a guy to deal with a grappling situation if it ocmes up or be able to retrain somebody if necessary. Not a complete form of grapplign though (except maybe in the case of Wado ryu).
_________________________
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#410795 - 11/17/08 07:21 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Also, please illustrate where the kata contains explicit use of 'ring' style footwork. As far as I know, tradional karate kata do not even involve the performer moving on the balls of their feet. Also, why would tradional karate even have the neccisity to place such footwork in the kata, because karate (as so many have said) was not originally designed for the ring.

I think you are forgetting the probably influence boxing footwork has had on 'sport' karate (which is why it looks similar).






I have always been thaught to move on the ball of my feet.
My teacher thaught me so and I train with him for 29 years. He learned it from his teacher in the 60ies. For me, this is integral to karate kumite (fighting) and has nothing to do with ring/sport fighting. There are some movements that require heel-ball stepping but this is with the intention to step on adversaries foot.

You seem to think that karate is dictated only with what happens in kata. This asumption is wrong. Although karate training is centralized around kata, it is mostley a tool to archive the aspects of karate. The interpretation of these aspects depend formost of what the individual can make of it. A good teacher can guide you but in the end, you have to figure out yourselve what fits or what not, also depending on your body.

About bobbing and weaving. Karate makes more use of evasion through body shifting (tai sabaki) in the beginning, when learning karate. This is because imo traditional karate starts working from the assumption of a total attack, involving stepping in. The one-step (or multi step) stepping exercises focus on that, creating correct execution of technique under pressure.
Apperently your experience in karate has not gone further than that.
In the free flow exercise you work more multiple attacks where opponent will slide in. Karate searches more to either block/confront attack and respond, or to evade and attack from another angle, or to attack preemptively. In that upper body movement to 'evade and recoil' is less stressed because on short range karate uses short techniques like elbow, clinch, grab, twist, headbutt, knee etc...

But some do train more on bob and weave, but to my exsperience it is not general in karate.

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#410796 - 11/17/08 11:29 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
what would Karate do against a PRO Boxer???

I don't think this is a proper comparison I beleive a amatuer, Gloden Glove boxer or jouneyman would be a better Comparison. Nobodies mentoned a Pro anything someone that makes their living Boxing would be better (but still limited in a real fight) but because he has mastered this range too ponetnt for a non Pro.

As for this thread being humorous and annoying it depends on what you looking for. Are U examining each post as your Truth or the poster's?

Though me a Jkogas,MattJ,Brains, Ames and Stromdragon don't see eye to on all subjects I find it enligtening, inspiring and benificail to hear another opinion so vastly different then my own. I also am enlightened by Posters liek Victor, Ed, BrianS, dragondrew, CVV, Med, MattJ and harlan that seems closer to the way I think and train (I may have left some people out but you know where you stand it wasn't done on purpose but limited time & space). There is nothing wrong IMO with coming to a different opinion from our point of training to success as long as we are successful and not folling ourselves but believe in what we are doing. I find that the only time you should question does it work is when it doesn't. I mean why question each person's success/method?

The purpose of this thread I beleive wasn't to question if Boxer or Karateka's are good strikers they are, but to state which is better as a street defense?

We have established that boxers are better in gloves and their training may give them an edge at the highest level. But are they blind by this lack of full range or trying to master only gloved hand punching?

In any result this is a informative and enjoyable thread? BC of all your inputs rather we like what's being said or not.
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#410797 - 11/17/08 11:49 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
SD wrote - As for Royce Gracie beating Karateka- Keither Hackney (White Tiger Kenpo) and Ron Van Clief (Chinese Goju), Kimo (TKD supposedly), Jason Delucia (Kung fu-same difference), Gerard Gordeau (TKD), Patrick Smith (TKD).

Neko456 - How many Boxers were subcumbed to these same tactics? Some times by trad MA as in the Nijitsu and Goju (mountain) man from Canada. Does this mean Boxing doesn't work no it means it doen't prepare your for sweeps, throws and then being struck or locked. Thats all, if you fought their fight the Karate guys or boxers were winners.

All this really amount to is years of studying what the opponent capable of and they not knowing what you are doing. In todays training all those great hold are easily counter by even Karateka,Boxers & others that cross train for such events. I mean in your own training how hard is it now to sink a takedown, lock or choke compared to a couple of years ago?

But you know what a punch is still a punch and kick still a ... and can end a fighting even a MMA match.


I end by asking this question knowing what you know (about full range fighting) could you feel comfortable just boxing in a rael fight r serious dojo match? Personally I'd feel butt naked just boxing, maybe it's just me. I don't mean dirty boxing or hybred boxing.


Edited by Neko456 (11/17/08 11:54 AM)

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#410798 - 11/17/08 02:10 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Stormdragon]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Why grapple when you could just hit him? Are you serious? Did you watch any of the first ufc's? You know how many Karateka tried that on Royce Gracie among others and got destroyed? Same with Ken Shamrock and strikers. If you don't have a solid ground game and takedown defense you may as well not even bother or at least not hope to be a good fighter.




BrianS was right, this doesn't deserve a response, but I will anyway.

Your post states that a fighter needs a good takedown defence. Do you not think I might know this and take it as common sense that this is the case for the example I am giving. The point of the statement was that Karate being primarily (operative word) a striking art, a Karateka should avoid grappling as much as possible against someone who specialises in it.

Bringing this back to the thread topic, a boxer specialises in punching. It might be wise for the karateka to use skills he is more competent in than the boxer.

Quote:


About just kicking a boxer in the groin, yeah that could work, or kick them in the leg, but if a boxer trains against a karate person, they learn to deal with that just by using good maneuvering. It's harder than you make it sound.




The point was to show techniques and the accompanying skills which make the karateka a better striker. The boxer has no real structured defence against this attack combination and each technique represents an area in which the boxer is lacking.

Yes, he could train against Karate people, while your at it you could give him an uzi. As Brian said, make it fair. What the boxer gets the karateka must get.

It should (yet again) be noted that I make no comment as to the effectiveness of boxing or whether one group should win against the other.
The individual fighter and how they train determines who wins the fight. However this discussion is on who has the better strikes.

Quote:

But try some of those famous step sparring moves on a boxer. They'll never work.





Here-in lies the problem. This comment displays such ignorance of Karate it is astounding. I don't mean that in a hurtful way, but what you said there would be like me saying "those lunge exercises Team A are doing will never win them the soccer game".

Karate is not limited to what you think it is.

Quote:

Now, where can I find a true lead hook in Karate? Or a rigth cross (by that I do not mean a reverse punch)?




Lead hook? Opening sequence of Hiean Godan to name but one.

As for crosses and gyakuzuki's being different, no, you're wrong. Take this as an opportunity to learn about Karate instead of clinging to misguided notions.

Most Karate (in my experience) has no single formal guard position?
Also stances are just structural alignments, with much larger internal components than external? They act as components of a technique and thus are as fleeting as the techniques themselves.

The below thread will show that there is a diversity of opinion on the subject of gaurds. It will also show precisely where my opinion is and give you more insight into my understanding of Karate.
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1

But why am I talking about guards? The cross is a reverse punch, thrown from a boxing guard (house) and stance (neutral fighting stance). No more no less.

Karate is not limited to what you think it is.

Quote:

I really think Karate does not have the same techniques. I've never ever seen a traditional Karate fighter using the foowork of boxing (which I think the footwork of boxing is generally better).




Again I disagree, but that really is another thread since this one is about striking.

Quote:

I dont know, to me, for what it is (punching only), boxing is better, in that area. And can be made to work against Karate.




Ageed.

Quote:

By you saying better, it's like saying a hit from a boxer isnt as good as a hit from a Karate person which is blatantly wrong.




Yes it is wrong. Good thing that is not what I'm saying and has no link with anything I've said at all in this or any other thread. Ever.
Quote:

It's more about how you train. Just because you have those options open doesnt mean you can make them work.




Absolutely true, I agree wholeheartedly.
Quote:

You said that a karateka with glvoes fights and mvoes like a boxer. But with kicks. In my experience when they just fight with a very crappy form of boxing usually, or kickboxing rather. The structure is different like I said. They dont move liek boxers so when they try to act liek boxers it doesnt work.




The important thing I said was that the rules dictate the structure. Hence is a boxer was put in Muay thai rules he would learn Muay thai techniques very quickly and the strategy that goes with it.

Many of the things boxers do that Karateka don't do well, they (boxers) get away with because of the rules of the game. Karate has different rules (good fighting karate has few or none) and so Karateka move differently to deal with the greater variety of threat with which they deal.
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#410799 - 11/17/08 02:33 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Many of the things boxers do that Karateka don't do well, they (boxers) get away with because of the rules of the game.




I don't exactly agree with that. Much of it has to do with boxers regularly practicing against resistance, something that a fair amount of karate people don't do.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#410800 - 11/17/08 02:34 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: CVV]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

have always been thaught to move on the ball of my feet.
My teacher thaught me so and I train with him for 29 years. He learned it from his teacher in the 60ies. For me, this is integral to karate kumite (fighting) and has nothing to do with ring/sport fighting. There are some movements that require heel-ball stepping but this is with the intention to step on adversaries foot.




Well, I certainly won't disagree with the fact that when the majority of Karateka spar, they move on the ball of their foot.
My main point was that this type of movement has more than likely been brought into Karate due to boxing/western combat sport influence.
Quote:

You seem to think that karate is dictated only with what happens in kata. This asumption is wrong. Although karate training is centralized around kata, it is mostley a tool to archive the aspects of karate. The interpretation of these aspects depend formost of what the individual can make of it. A good teacher can guide you but in the end, you have to figure out yourselve what fits or what not, also depending on your body.




I know that modern karate teaches skills that are not found in the kata.
However, again, my question is where did some of these skills come from (like ball of foot movement, and boxing style footwork)? Because certainly they are not found in the kata. If, as you say, kata is a "tool to archive the aspects of karate", then why wasn't this aspect ever archived? Karate training, after all, is "centralized around kata"--so I can't think of reason why this wouldn't be directly expressed anywhere in the kata. That was my point. I think that it is pretty clear that this type of movement came from a boxing influence. None of the photos I've seen show this kind of stepping. If I'm wrong and you have evidence to the contrary (that Karate used this kind of stepping before boxing's influence) I'll gladly take back my comment.
This goes to what you're saying regarding " good teacher can guide you but in the end, you have to figure out yourself". This is very true, but also implies that a student or teacher could bring in their past training, or even something they have only seen, into the art and call it 'karate'. In the end, the kata, being a "tool to archive the aspects of karate", should at least suggest something. If not, then one can make the assumption that certain things were not practiced.
So, as I said, it seems like, if karate does indeed have this type of movement, it was borrowed from boxing (sometimes indirectly though).
What disturbs me in this thread is a 'have your cake and eat it too' kind of thinking.

As an example, recently an attempt has been made by some to show the 'hidden groundfighing techniques of the kata'. Although I think it's great that someone is creative enough to extract groundfighting from kata, these people usually have training in either BJJ or Judo newaza. The fact is, there is no historical precedent for the kata bunkai having groundfighting. So, in many ways, this is reverse engineering. Really, BJJ and Judo newaza are influences Karate.

How does this relate? Well, it wouldn't suprise if twenty years from now someone on a forum like this says "karate is better that BJJ, because it has all the groundfighting of BJJ plus yadda yadda." This is wrong on so many levels, but the main think is it does not acknowledge the influence that BJJ had on this kind of Bunkai extraction.

I think the same is true for these discussions of boxing footwork in karate. What is the source?

Quote:

About bobbing and weaving. Karate makes more use of evasion through body shifting (tai sabaki) in the beginning, when learning karate. This is because imo traditional karate starts working from the assumption of a total attack, involving stepping in. The one-step (or multi step) stepping exercises focus on that, creating correct execution of technique under pressure.




I never said that karate doesn't have its own tai sabaki methods. Shonuff said that karate specifically has 'weaving', and in the general context of his post (that karate has everything boxing has plus more), he implied bobbing too. What I'm saying is tradional karate does not have this. Like you say, "it is not general in karate."
Boxing footwork is an integral part of what makes boxing 'boxing'.

Quote:

Apperently your experience in karate has not gone further than that.




I don't what this has to do with anything, further than what? What in my statement was incorrect. You seem to be agreeing with me. You say:

Quote:

to my exsperience [bobbing and weaving] it is not general in karate.




My point is that these points that "Karate has everything boxing has AND MORE" are very, very flawed, and come off as somewhat arrogant.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410801 - 11/17/08 02:59 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Shonuff]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

BrianS was right, this doesn't deserve a response, but I will anyway.





Although I don't particularly like the why Stormdragon has phrased his argument, I don't really see why it is not worthy of a response.

Quote:

The point of the statement was that Karate being primarily (operative word) a striking art, a Karateka should avoid grappling as much as possible against someone who specialises in it.





Although I don't want to help with the thread drift regarding grappling (because as you say, that is not what this thread is about), it has been very clearly shown that you cannot just avoid grappling. The clinch will happen whether you like it or not.

Also, plese be aware, that I am not saying that boxing is better against a grappler than karate. I just want to point out that your argument is flawed. In any sport fight where the clich is allowed to occur, it does.

I know this post is addressed to Shonuff, but I think that his comments tie in with BrianS (Shonuff correct me if I'm wrong). BrianS stated:

Quote:

What have we learned since then? Many strikers have been very effective against grapplers by simply learning takedown defenses.





Yes, they have. This is true. But all of those strikers are also trained in grappling and constantly practice those techniques against trained grapplers. So, yes, takedown defence can be effective against grapplers, but in order to do so it appears that one needs to be fairly well versed in groundfighting.

Back to Shonuff:
Quote:

The point was to show techniques and the accompanying skills which make the karateka a better striker. The boxer has no real structured defence against this attack combination and each technique represents an area in which the boxer is lacking.





Yes, he does.
Again, as I stated in MY post (which you have choses to ignore) your scenerio is hypotheical. I supplied another where the boxer can indeed counter this. One way that boxing trains how to counter this is through heavy reliance on evasive footwork.

Quote:

Yes it is wrong. Good thing that is not what I'm saying and has no link with anything I've said at all in this or any other thread. Ever.





Although you didn't say that, you did imply that karate was better because it contains more techniques.

Quote:

The important thing I said was that the rules dictate the structure. Hence is a boxer was put in Muay thai rules he would learn Muay thai techniques very quickly and the strategy that goes with it.





Maybe. Maybe not. You appear to be operating on the assumption that boxing cannot standalone against another striking art. Again, this seems to be due to your preoccupation with techniques (more techniques > better art).

Here is an example of boxer using boxing against a well trained Muay Thai fighter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLDJ6GeRRh4

Just because a boxer is put under a diffirent (striking) rule set, doesn't mean he can't still box. If anything, the fact that boxing does work in these setting shows that the seemingly limited techniques are extremely adaptable (thus making them not so limited).

Regarding this whole thing about grappling that has crept into this thread, it's a useless disscussion, neither karate nor boxing adquetly trains someone to properly deal with a well trained grappler. The best way to counter grappling is to learn how to grapple (well).

That being said, I should say that this is one aspect where I personally feel boxing does (indirectly) supply the upperhand. As many have said, karate just takes longer to learn. The boxer is able to pick up hand skills relatively quickly, and therefore has more time to focus on other ranges with people who are experts on them (i.e. train grappling with a grappler).

I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion of grappling, and I hope I haven't helped that happen. But I don't see this point being brought up in response to karate covering more ranges. Yes, it covers them, but it takes (as many have said) a lot of time to learn them. The boxer has plenty of time to do so (hence MMA).

But this is topic about regarding boxing and karate STRIKING, so I think the grappling thing is another thread altogether.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410802 - 11/17/08 03:00 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
As you say Karate having your cake and eating it too. But it doesn't take a scientist to know that ducking, weaving and bobbsing is a method that all true fighting arts practice. Also there are as many type foot movement as they are personal styles just as they are in Boxing. Movement is granted slightly different then Boxing shallow stances bc thats so easy to sweep. But alot of the Karate movement is on the balls of the feet. So you seem to think that Karate is restricted to limited robotic movement I disagree. You seem to think that Karate is all icing and no cake to eat.

I believe in and give Boxing it's due but once you have researched the possibilities and go strike for strike Karate is betetr at the different ranges imho. Mostly bc unlike you I see damage being done before the Boxer is at range and done after he entered or up-rooted the Boxer. Kararte delas with flow and combinations all the way to the ground.

The problem with some that call themselev Karate is that they don't practice full range fighting but most do. The problem with boxing is that its limited in range and don't practice limb destruction bc of the gloves and targeted areas.

So in a way Karate is like having your cake and eating it too if you practice properly.

Boxing is good stuff but training like a boxer using Karate technique is better ungloved is mo.
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#410803 - 11/17/08 03:14 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Neko456]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

But it doesn't take a scientist to know that ducking, weaving and bobbsing is a method that all true fighting arts practice.




No, they don't. Unless you are saying the tradional karate and kung fu (for example) are not "true fighting arts".

These skills were adopted FROM BOXING. There is absolutely no evidence that these skills were practiced before boxing's influence.

Quote:

But alot of the Karate movement is on the balls of the feet.




Yes, because of boxing's influence on kumite footwork.

Quote:

Karate is betetr at the different ranges imho




This isn't the topic being addressed. The topic is about striking.

Now, if you are talking about striking ranges, then there is still no evidence that a boxer doesn't have an answer for kicks, headbutts, and elbows. The video I posted above ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLDJ6GeRRh4 ) shows that.

Quote:

Mostly bc unlike you I see damage being done before the Boxer is at range and done after he entered or up-rooted the Boxer.




Again, you are not addressing what a boxer could do to NOT allow any of these things to happen.

Quote:

The problem with boxing is that its limited in range and don't practice limb destruction bc of the gloves and targeted areas.





If you guys want to bring up karate that was influenced by boxing and suggest that as the standard (rather than tradional Okinawan Karate), then I could just as easily bring up boxing systems that do deal with these things exactly. Crazy Monkey Boxing is an example. However, this would be unfair, because it doesn't speak to what we know the majority of boxing is.

Just as you stating that skills taken from boxing are in fact original to karate is wrong. If anything, it suggests the possible supremacy of boxing. In order to counter it, you need to imitate it.

Quote:

So in a way Karate is like having your cake and eating it too if you practice properly.




No. Karate (by how you and others are describing it) is like not having cake and stealing someone else's and calling it your own.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (11/17/08 03:16 PM)
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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