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#410654 - 11/04/08 05:24 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Dan, I think the thing is that people who don't get kata don't get karate in general. But that's to be expected because most people have never seen good karate. When we talk about kata its not just performing kata over and over again.




Good point. The training of the kata is more important than the performance of it imo.

Quote:

When I teach a student to attack I am teaching him kata. When I teach a student to defend I am teaching him kata. When I teach my students resistive kumite drills with contact I am teaching him kata.




Do you mean training kata? Or teaching him how to do the kata?

Quote:

When I have my students hit the focus mitts, kick shields, and thai pads I am teaching him kata.




Erm...ok. Everything is kata, so nothing can not be kata? I think you're making it more than it really is here.

Quote:

The actual "kata performance" is done as either a warm up or cool down and lasts maybe 10 minutes. The key is kata is a storehouse for both technique and fighting principles. It is a method of not only remembering technique, but it is a note pad of fighting strategies. So when a karateka trains on his own and practices kata (after lifting weights and running) as a cool down exercise or before as a warm up the drills come back to mind, the pad work comes back to mind, and new ways of applying and attacking and defending come to mind as well.




Good point,except for the padwork...

Training the kata will teach you how to use the techniques given most effectively for your body(mechanics and how the body works,etc.).

Quote:

Then the student takes that note pad back to class and works the old and the new to gain a new understanding of what he or she has been thinking and visualizing. The thing about karate is that although there are seemingly many techniques there are actually only a few. Kata simply shows many variations on a few themes. The "basic" technique is pretty much applying one technique in one way. The intermediate technique is applying one technique in many different ways. And the advanced technique is applying many different techniques in the same way. But all are effective and all are aimed at developing functional karate. So yes, you can do everything you can do with kata without it.




I think I agree for the most part,but we shouldn't try to deceive others as to what kata actually is. Kata is not hitting the heavy bag, pads, etc...

Kata training is seperate from that type of training. Bagwork, pads,mitts,running, lifting,etc. is NOT kata or kata training. I don't see how it could possibly be.

This is one of the reasons why people HATE TMA and kata types. Too many claims that they are all encompassing arts. (groundfighting,weighttraining,bagwork,etc..)

Quote:

In the beginning it will be easier to do without kata, however, the more advanced you get the harder it will be and eventually you will be left wishing you had kata to aid in your study, that is, if you were doing everything that is contained in karate without kata. Karate is about making everything you do prepare you for combat.




If you start without kata, then why would you revert back to it? I can't see how it would make it harder to be without if you start without it.

IMO if you are a kata system then you start with kata as the foundation and build upon it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#410655 - 11/04/08 07:20 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I can see I've touched a raw nerve just by calling you on some of your flawed assumptions and arguments. To the extent that you've asked (opening question), I'm not making any arguments pro-kata - just calling you out on your arguments against kata and tma in general.





I asked a question because I was trying to get you to elaborate, that's all. Don't congratulate yourself. The only nerve you touch is when you try and put words in my mouth. Otherwise we're cool.


Quote:


All I'll reiterate is that no matter which way you try to spin or revise it, you can't change the fact that your posts arrogantly and summarily dismiss karate and other tma methods as "useless".





Well, that would be because that's how I view them. I see them as useless Captain Obvious. But that's just my point of view. Am I not welcome to my own opinion here or something?


Quote:


Your scathing tone towards tma is not a matter of debate - if you are honest you'll agree that it is a matter of fact.





Listen, all I'm doing is listing reasons why I believe TMA methods are a waste of valuable time, in my opinion. The fact that you don't like my opinion is the main reason you think my tone is scathing. Oh well. That isn't going to change I suppose.


Quote:

Your posts are clearly antagonistic towards tma in general - you can't hide behind the revision: "I was just criticising kata - not karate or tma". If kata is an important part of an art (as it is with karate and most tma) they are indivisible. For that matter, I doubt you have any time for, say, karate punching practise (what this post is ostensibly about - how you dragged kata into it is beyond me) or karate blocks etc. etc. In short you seem to feel that everything in tma is useless - unless and until it morphs into boxing, then it's okay.





Ok....what's your point, lol? I don't think kata has any use whatsoever. Thats my opinion.


Quote:


And even if you haven't specifically directed your comments to "dandjurdjevic", your broad assumptions and dismissive put downs of what I choose to do is an affront to me and to many other tma on this forum (as any reasonable person would expect).





Then I'd say, grow a pair and get OVER it. I'm not going to stop providing my opinion here. That's what these forums are about. I dont' know how they do things in communist Australia (joking) but in the free world, we're still allowed to speak our minds.


Quote:


It is particularly insulting because it assumes we have ignorantly pursued the "wrong direction" instead of your "better" direction just because we won't "listen" or (as you said to me once) "we don't get it". Your tag line "wants you to KNOW" is consistent with this theme.





Buddy, I'd say you're losing control. All I've done is pointed out my views here, then responded to Victor, then yourself. In the course of that, we've had this discussion. Have I responded to you with personal attacks? Called you names? Threatened you? Of course not. The only thing I've done here was to provide my opinion. WHICH, by the way, I will continue to do. I'd suggest that if you're that threatened by what I have to say, don't freakin' READ it. You have that option.



Quote:


Your attitude suggests that we tma "don't know" what you call "the truth of combat" and that you'll "inform us". It ignores that many of us are thinking, well-reasoned martial artists who have had plenty of "hard knocks" realism yet "miraculously" still choose to do what we do. It ignores that we might just have some point to what we do. It doesn't even feign respect or politeness for our many years of effort.





My attitude is based on saying my opinion. I've flatly done that and nothing more. The problem is, you are having a knee jerk reaction to it and losing control of yourself.



Quote:

If the shoe were on the other foot and someone were rubbishing boxing continually, suggesting that boxers "don't get it" and need to know "the truth about combat" (ie. the "truth" according to that person) I'm sure your indignation would run for many more pages than your last response!





You know, that used to happen here regularly. The TMA routinely dispensed with "sport" martial arts saying they were worthless. Over the coure of five years here, people are now more aware and more intelligent about that process (for the most part, that is). I was one of very few voices championing, athletic, sportive based training for self-defense. The thing about me is, I can use logic and reasoning to persuade. All you're doing now is whining because my opinion is negative to the TMA.



Quote:


Nor would it help if the person then revised his position as follows: "I was only criticising boxing sparring and heavy bag training as unrealistic - not boxers in general! Sheesh! Think of how much better they'd be if they did some kata instead!" Of course, no one is making or has ever (to my knowledge) made that argument or anything like it.





Again, no one is doing that because it would be stupid to do so. They would have not rational argument to back it up with. I'm all about the truth bro. If it's a duck, I'm going to call it a duck.



Quote:

If you want to start getting stuck so overtly into someone else's art, then from now on expect some "resistance". Otherwise, don't start none and there'll be none.





I don't know about you, but I LIVE for resistance. I'd have thought you would have guessed that by now.


Quote:

Oh - and I haven't missed the point of your posts. It's you who seems to miss the point of mine. Take my reference to "brutal" as just one example: it was intended as a euphamism for hard, realistic training undertaken in the 70s karate dojos. I was specifically countering your inference that karate training is not "real" or "live".






Right there is one of your misunderstandings. I've never stated ANYWHERE that karate wasn't or isn't trained "live". I don't know if you're just glossing over my posts, or intentionally misstating me. Its one of the two. My guess that is you've come so undone by my posts that you've lost your ability to read carefully what I'm actually saying. Calm down.


Quote:

I was not referring to "brutality" in any wider sense (and I think you know that).





I wasn't trying to imply that you were. My point was to only clarify my perspective, so folks would be clear that *I* not just speaking of brutality when I talk of live sparring, etc. I guess you misunderstood me, again. Perhaps I could have worded it differently, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

Try relaxing a little. Jeez, do you lose control of yourself like this in a REAL fight too?



-John

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#410656 - 11/04/08 07:59 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Just an aside to another derailed thread (and who would have guessed it...the same egos)...

...there are karate people that don't do kata...and this thread is about striking...not kata.

Reminder to members...there is an 'Ignore' function.

Unfortunately, it doesn't apply to 'moderate-rs'.

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#410657 - 11/04/08 10:14 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Brian, kata applies to pad work because once you learn how to strike a pad properly then your "air" technique changes. You develop the ability to improve you striking power through kata practice because your technique works for real.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#410658 - 11/04/08 02:12 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Victor Smith]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Victor stated - As far as strikes, empty hand I often choose to use Sanchin kata techniques against boxing, but then again...

==========================================================

I don't punch with a puncher or swim with a shark.

Just another opinion I try not to trade blows with a good boxer, I'd rather do something he doesn't expect like heel stomp his thigh or knee or instep then sweep/throw him and of course stomp him. As for people that think they can box I'll throw with them barefisted. But even then I'm looking to have his fist run into my elbow or slaps his ears or knee his balls.

Unless its dirty boxing a boxers arsenal is not as complete as Karates is all I'm saying. I like boxing and have adopted its hook punch and jab all else seems the same as far as fist strikes except for the extended knuckle punches that Te train.
When some guys were quicker boxers I use to strike with my leapord paw while gloved these guys would start avoding or would quit they said they could feel my knuckles even while gloved. Karate strike also have there advantages, even while boxing.

I know thats cheating but they were winning and I couldn't help it, Ok I'm a$$ hole, I just needed to get point (of my knuckles) across.

This is becoming an interesting thread continue.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#410659 - 11/04/08 03:21 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

If the shoe were on the other foot and someone were rubbishing boxing continually, suggesting that boxers "don't get it" and need to know "the truth about combat" (ie. the "truth" according to that person) I'm sure your indignation would run for many more pages than your last response !




Or he would just show one of several videos of evidence to basically prove his claim.

As someone who has participated in TMA, I have to say that John is making a strong argument here. And I think you, Dan, are putting words in his mouth, trying to call him on what you feel the IMPLICATIONS of his posts 'mean'.

He is stating a rather logical fact:

If a complete, and fuctioning fighter can be developed without the use of kata, then kata can be seen as irrelevent to the creation of a good fighter.

It's rather simple. If you like kata (as I do sometimes, though not solo kata), then more power to you. We all learn in diffirent ways. However, I do think that kata study can easily become, as John put it, a "time waster". The fact is, many other facets of training should take precedence over kata training.
Why is this so? Again, it's fairly logical and relates to the first point:

There is absolutely no verifiable evidence that a strong fighter has been developed through kata study alone. They all need sparring and resistence in order to make what they do functional. Therefore, it stands to reason, that kata should take a back seat to other aspects of training. A good fighter can be made WITHOUT kata, but with ONLY kata, a person never learns to fight.

I don't really see how this can be argued with: kata is the most disposible aspect of training because it is completly reliant on the other facets to have meaning. However, the other facets of training (sparring, drills done with resistence, etc.) do not need kata to develop real world function.

Disagree? Show me evidence to the contrary. I, myself, have looked for years and never found it.


Edited by Ames (11/04/08 03:23 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410660 - 11/04/08 03:26 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ames.... Exactly!

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#410661 - 11/04/08 04:14 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I don't really see how this can be argued with: kata is the most disposible aspect of training because it is completly reliant on the other facets to have meaning. However, the other facets of training (sparring, drills done with resistence, etc.) do not need kata to develop real world function.




Not so fast what you are saying is a bit off. Kata at its core is basic technique stringed together with intermediate techniques and postures. Much like the basic punches, defense, and footwork of boxing. However, a jab is nothing if it is not trained against resistance, right? What about a combination? If I teach you a combination and you never use it in sparring against resistance, on focus mitts, a heavy bag, or anything will it be any good? Probably not. Those techniques, just like kata, are nothing without their accompanying training methods. What is sparring without the basic techniques of boxing, or karate? Its nothing. Anything you can do with a boxing combination I can do with a sequence of techniques (not necessarily in order) from kata. Does that mean that the basic techniques and fighting principles of boxing are not necessary to become a complete fighter? No.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#410662 - 11/04/08 05:15 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: medulanet]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Well, I think you've answered your own question here.

The fact is that you are "taking techniques from the kata" and then using them against attacks. The thing is, you're extracting the techniques. So, you're not really arguing here for the benifit of 'kata', but rather making the asertion that kata CONTAINS workable techniques. I wouldn't argue with that. The question is, is kata really even neccesary to train these techniques? No.

You're attempting to turn this into a discussion of the content of the kata, whereas I'm discussiing them as a training methodology. Yes, you can't have boxing without a jab. But you can also train a jab without kata.

The kata may (and often do) contain usuable techniques, but the key matter at issue here (and the one you're attempting to sidestep), is: Is kata the best way to train these techniques?

Further, I've shown that one can FULLY train these techniques WITHOUT kata. So, why not cut out the middle man?

Respectfully,
Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#410663 - 11/04/08 05:46 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Or he would just show one of several videos of evidence to basically prove his claim.





And you really don't have to look far to find them either. All you'd need to do is watch boxing on tv. Watch cage fighting. The western boxing delivery system is somewhere on the TV virtually every night of the week now. Boxing's delivery system "works" because it has to work, bottom line.


Quote:

He is stating a rather logical fact:

If a complete, and fuctioning fighter can be developed without the use of kata, then kata can be seen as irrelevent to the creation of a good fighter.





Thanks Ames. That's really all I've been trying to say. And I believe that's been a consistent point I've brought up here over the years.


Quote:


It's rather simple. If you like kata (as I do sometimes, though not solo kata), then more power to you. We all learn in diffirent ways.





Exactly. I also stated that in a myriad of different ways.



Quote:


However, I do think that kata study can easily become, as John put it, a "time waster". The fact is, many other facets of training should take precedence over kata training. Why is this so? Again, it's fairly logical and relates to the first point:

There is absolutely no verifiable evidence that a strong fighter has been developed through kata study alone. They all need sparring and resistence in order to make what they do functional. Therefore, it stands to reason, that kata should take a back seat to other aspects of training. A good fighter can be made WITHOUT kata, but with ONLY kata, a person never learns to fight.





And that is nothing but solid logic. That's been my whole point.


Quote:


I don't really see how this can be argued with: kata is the most disposible aspect of training because it is completly reliant on the other facets to have meaning. However, the other facets of training (sparring, drills done with resistence, etc.) do not need kata to develop real world function.

Disagree? Show me evidence to the contrary. I, myself, have looked for years and never found it.





You're spot on Ames.

And although this thread has derailed, that's no reason to stop the debate. Let it naturally progress and the forum will take on greater life. If someone wants to continue with a discussion about strikes, they can simply change the subject.


-John

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