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#410664 - 11/04/08 07:50 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:


Try relaxing a little. Jeez, do you lose control of yourself like this in a REAL fight too?




Lol! I'm calm thanks. Making a point strongly and losing control are too different things. I'm calling it as I see it. I'm "stating fact" as Ames would say.

To paraphrase you, I'm all about the truth bro. If it's insulting, I'm going to call it it insulting. Using emotive words like "corpse", "worthless", "dead" etc. in relation to methods used by some VERY formidable fighters falls clearly in that category.

If you really want to call a "duck" a "duck" then you could say: "kata is of no use to me" or "kata does not appear necessary to be an effective fighter" (which is, if you note, something which practically EVERYBODY seems to agree). Instead you go one step further and scoff, vent and use dismissive language. When it comes to kata, "not necessary" does not equal "useless" in logic. Yet this is the kind of language you use.

I could say "boxing is just sport and the technique is lousy - all that you have is sparring and conditioning, no technique" or some such thing. Saying "that's my opinion - I'm just calling a duck a duck, I'm all about truth" etc. doesn't make it appropriate for this forum or respectful towards good fighters. Do I really need to say that the reverse also applies?

And given that you are not a kata/tma practitioner, why aren't you open to hearing from a kata practitioner about how and why he or she uses kata (even if it isn't your cup of tea)? Why the constant antagonism, may I ask? Why do you and others blow a fuse every time you talk about kata?

In terms of "losing it" I think it is the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm just giving you a taste of the only resistance you've had on this subject for a while and seeing the result!

You've been getting away with it for so long that it's a big surprise when someone calls you on it.



Edited by dandjurdjevic (11/04/08 08:14 PM)

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#410665 - 11/04/08 08:34 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I have maintained time and time again that while kata is not necessary, it can be put to good use and many do.

Yes, some kata is ritualistic, dead practise. On the other hand I see some silly corporate types doing "white collar boxing" of a kind that makes you laugh.

I've tried a few times to explain traditional technique and methods like kata; it might seem long-winded, but for those of us who have persevered it has produced some sizeable benefits, most of them long-term. However I have found that even as I begin to explain a very different prespective it is derailed with "kata isn't necessary" type arguments (which clearly cover old ground).

If anyone is interested I can explain my (pragmatic) experience with kata and traditional techniques. I'd love to do this on another thread. There is a lot to be said and many perspectives (such as Marcel's interesting viewpoint). You may not like to adopt them but that is another story. To have them rubbished and dismissed out of hand is counterproductive.

Pleasantly

Dan

P.S. And if you think I've "lost it" you really haven't seen anything! Remember that I'm a former prosecutor with years of experience arguing. A little debate like this isn't going to rile me up. My formal tone might come across stridently on the net, but that's just the way I speak. Remember, I call it like I see it.

You want to serve it up to kata practitoners, I'm gonna serve it up to you! It doesn't mean I'm getting angry. I can see your frustration with kata (and to some extent I can see why) but I don't think you have the full picture. In the end, I think this is a discussion that we "had to have" so that we could open up the debate beyond "kata sux". I have some (I think) useful things to say about kata and traditional technique. I don't want it bogged down by this tired argument. Better get it out of the way now.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#410666 - 11/04/08 11:35 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Again I feel you're attempting to side-step the issue at hand and turn this into a debate regarding John's rhetoric, rather than a debate about the content of his message. Rather than flatout state the value of kata, you've instead chosen to tell us, again, how John's post has subjectively affected you.

Yet, this didn't seem to be a problem when you thought you had 'one-uped' me--you were perfectly willing to engage in a debate then. Now though, you have decided that the thread is 'derailed'. I think you are being intellectually dishonest here, Dan.

John never attacked Karate, or TMA, directly, yet you ARE attacking him directly. You are twisting his words and turning this into an argument rooted in your subjective interpretation of what he may or may not have said. Such an argument can go adnauseum, and thus a stalemate will develop.

This is a standard rhetorical technique for side-stepping the actual content of the problem at hand. You were probably a very good attorney. However, again, because you haven't really answered it in the first place:

Quote:

I don't really see how this can be argued with: kata is the most disposible aspect of training because it is completly reliant on the other facets to have meaning. However, the other facets of training (sparring, drills done with resistence, etc.) do not need kata to develop real world function.

Disagree? Show me evidence to the contrary




Or, if you prefer it stated otherwise, how about:

Quote:

The kata may (and often do) contain usuable techniques, but the key matter at issue here (and the one you're attempting to sidestep), is: Is kata the best way to train these techniques?

Further, I've shown that one can FULLY train these techniques WITHOUT kata. So, why not cut out the middle man?





Respectfully,

Chris


Edited by Ames (11/04/08 11:38 PM)

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#410667 - 11/05/08 01:50 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Ames]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I haven't side-stepped anything Chris.

Your posts state that kata is unnecessary. You attack me as a person who hasn't offered proof to counteract this.

However you have obviously not read my posts. I have consistently maintained that kata is NOT necessary for fighting. However I have also said that I and others find it useful. Why? I have often advanced what I consider to be uses of kata. Most recently I did so on the "kata in the street" thread. If you trawl this forum you'll see lengthy treatises on this subject from me.

Apposite to this thread about punching I invite you to read my article http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/11/kime-soul-of-karate-punch.html

It relates to karate punches, but applies generally to kata since "kime" or focus is one of the principle things grooved in kata (as with all "air" basics in traditional arts).

Quote:

John never attacked Karate, or TMA, directly, yet you ARE attacking him directly.




He hasn't attacked them in name - but even Blind Freddy can see who he is attacking (ie. those who practise kata - ahem, that would be me and others). And I'm not attacking him. I'm stating fact - remember?

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#410668 - 11/05/08 02:59 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
whilst this is an interesting debate we need to keep this in mind -

Profanity, obscene language, insults, criticism of other arts, styles or individuals, or the impersonation of other individuals should be avoided in any Forum Submission. In addition, you may not upload to FightingArts.com, or distribute or otherwise publish through FightingArts.com, any Content or Submissions that are libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, threatening, abusive, illegal or otherwise objectionable, or that constitute or would encourage a criminal offense, violate the rights of any party, or otherwise give rise to liability or violate any law.

Lets keep things civil and relevant in this forum please guys and gals.

Olease try to keep on subject'ish, and keep things respectful, otherwise I have to work for my money.............
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#410669 - 11/05/08 03:06 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I've always questioned the 'criticism of other arts' rule. Kind of puts an end to all debates here.

You can't criticize my art!!

Like when someone posts a video they just want praise and admiration,lol.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#410670 - 11/05/08 04:21 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I don't mind criticism of my art - but when you can't even start talking about kata without someone starting the "dead, worthless, pointless" etc. stuff, it can be a drag. And it can get to the point where it is counterproductive to debate - not encouraging of it. I'd like to talk about some aspects of kata without being drowned out with the same tired observations made by people (some of whom know very little or nothing about kata).

If a person wants to discuss the pros and cons of kata or (as per this thread) the karate punch let him/her make his/her point - without the usual scoffing and snideness about how "it's worthless, I've been saying it for 5 years" yada, yada.

My article above covers ground apposite to this discussion. I'm happy to discuss the issues raised in it and elsewhere about the specifics of karate punching but we'll never get there if "it's all $hit" keeps being raised as the opening gambit.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#410671 - 11/05/08 05:12 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I agree with that. If a flaw was found in a technique you or I think to be legitimate then it can be debated. But, to use aggressive terms like that isn't called for imo.

It's the principles behind the training of kata that people miss. They miss it because they have never trained kata or they have never trained kata in that manner.

I'm not saying anyone "needs" kata for viable self defense either. I'm just saying it is another path that people can find useful. I've never seen it as a waste of time. All things in moderation.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#410672 - 11/05/08 05:51 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Amen.

Now I'd like to move the debate back to the karate punch vs. boxing punch. Both have benefits but have diametrically opposed approaches.

The key difference is, of course, focus; principally a bareknuckle concept. Again, I invite you to consider my article specifically on focus which covers my view on this subject anyway:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/11/kime-soul-of-karate-punch.html

Probably nothing new for karateka, but it might give some insight to those who know nothing about karate punches and wonder why the heck anyone would do them.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#410673 - 11/05/08 07:11 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Guys, newsflash for you: I use the term "dead" not in a derogatory way here. I use it because it's the opposite of the term "alive".

Alive for me has a definition. It means, "having the qualities of timing, motion and energy in relation to a living opponent". "Dead" would be the opposite. Thus they are technical terms.

Given that I've been on this forum using the same terms for nearly 6 YEARS now, you'd think some of you would know that.

For the record; I will CONTINUE using those terms not because I'm attempting to put something down, but to describe inherent qualities of a training method.

Perhaps that has brought about a clearer understanding. Aside from that, being politically correct all the time is just as much of a drag. There's only so many ways to be nice when sharing an opinion about something that you don't find to be worthwhile.


-John

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